2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

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Who will win?

Raiders 13+
2
17%
Raiders 1-12
5
42%
Draw
0
No votes
Panthers 1-12
1
8%
Panthers 13+
4
33%
 
Total votes: 12

Boomercm
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Boomercm »

Raiders666 wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:38 pm
Rickmando wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:33 pm
Raiders666 wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:29 pm
Rickmando wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:28 pm
Raiders666 wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:27 pm Ricky isn't going anywhere lol
No, and in a way, that’s the biggest issue of them all.

He caps our ceiling
If he goes half the team does...Players want him as coach..They love the bloke
They don’t need a mate.

Show me the evidence of what coaching of rugby league systems Rick is good at.

- Attack is constantly disjointed
- Last tackle options are generally poor
- very few overlaps generated
- players often look like they don’t know their role
- No composure or game management, or signs of situation-specific game plan (remember we couldn’t even set up for, let alone kick, a field goal for 3 or 4 years)
- bench and interchange management has never been mastered

He’s had 7 years to show improvement in any of the above areas. Yet here we are still running around like it’s 2014 and Blake Austin’s anoos is on fire
3 prelims and a GF in the last 5 years
but lets not let numbers or statistics get in the way of a good post game rant.

Kris was good. So was Hudson.

Penrith also very good. But you could see in the first 25 mins the same mentality that cost them the GF. They were over-pumped, disjointed, easy to forced mistakes from. We did not quite put the points on in that period, but were not far away (Croker's miss).

Then employing the same mentality, Kikau took out Charnze, and then won them a penalty with a shoulder drop to the head that would have seen TPJ suspended for 4 weeks. That mentality could easily have compounded what was happening and cost Penrith the game like it did in last years GF. This time the way it worked out they scored points, it settled them down, and from there they were too good.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Kryptonite »

Rickmando wrote: April 9, 2021, 9:57 pm Rick is a great raider but we won’t win a premiership with him as a coach. He’s too conservative, and just pumping the players up to bleed green isn’t a game plan.

Let’s hope the next coach puts some time into giving us some structure when we have the ball in hand. I’ve hardly seen any in Rick’s 7 year tenure
RS game plane “just get out there and bleed green for 80 minutes!” “We got this!”
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Boomercm »

Seiffert82 wrote: April 9, 2021, 11:50 pm I'm not on board with the Williams hate either. He made a few errors, but I must have been watching a different game.
and most of his errors were toward the end chasing points.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Pete Cash »

Thought hodgson started looking pretty good before he got injured. He's never going to be mistake free but few hookers are. It's why Smith was so good because he rarely made errors

Anyway one thing the doomers have right is that we are way too slow and soft out wide. I'd love s Brian to'o like figure. The way I look at wing is that it's a very important position in the modern game but one that should be fairly replaceable because it's one titled pretty close to athlete on the athlete-rugby league player scale and there are a lot of big strong athletic kids out there

Maybe we should try and sign some ?

Oh yeah the stick debate

I have some doubts he will get us over the line but he's done a very good job here if we look at where we were when he got here..
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by moto748 »

RedRaider wrote: April 10, 2021, 7:05 am

Luai is a very instinctive footballer and leader on their left with and without the ball. It is a pleasure to watch him play.
He is a terrific player. Seems to pretty much have the full game; decent defender, good short kicking game and can pick a pass, always looking to run, and, crucially, although he seems to take a fair few chances, doesn't often get it wrong.

Penrith are a top side, and the Raiders needed everything to go well to have a chance. But when Croker bombed that chance and CNK was injured, it all slipped away.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Wiki Special »

That loss last night kind of reminded me of the close losses we had to Souths and the Roosters in the regular season during 2019. I am confident we can find the gears necessary to still make a run in the Finals. To be honest, I actually want to play Penrith again in a big Finals game because I legitimately think we will beat them.
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Canberra Milk
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Canberra Milk »

On reflection, I think the missing piece between us and the top teams is attacking flair, speed. Look at Tedesco, Lil Pap, Luai etc. That's the difference between us and them, and perhaps some game management

Every other area we're fine in and matched them. There was talk of our forwards being a bit off but I don't buy it. We came up against a good pack and each bashed each other. Can't expect to steamroll every team
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BadnMean
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

Dimes wrote: April 9, 2021, 11:18 pm
GreenMachine wrote: April 9, 2021, 11:11 pm Yeah that makes sense...
I thought the ruck and 6 again were a crap shoot again...who friggen knows how this works...
We couldn’t buy a 6 again and the one time we did, Whitehead ran into touch...
No complaints about the ref aside from the fact they are all usually very poor..
The 6 again rule I often can't tell what it was for in live play. I'm a bit on the fence about it as a result.
I feel the same. At the ground I find it a distraction as you're working harder to follow the play and absorb all the other sensory input you get at a game day experience.

On TV it's a different experience and you can often form a better idea of when they are coming/what they are for and even when someone has gotten away with one.

And I'm ok with that difference, it's best just let it wash at the ground.

My main peeve is that it has actually led to holding down/shennanigans on every first ruck now. It's actually made it harder to get out of your own end when a set starts in the 10m zone because they hold you up so long on the first play and then just reset and smash you 6 times instead of 5. At the same time it's made it really hard to defend sets rolling up the middle 40m of the field.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

Canberra Milk wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:36 am On reflection, I think the missing piece between us and the top teams is attacking flair, speed. Look at Tedesco, Lil Pap, Luai etc. That's the difference between us and them, and perhaps some game management

Every other area we're fine in and matched them. There was talk of our forwards being a bit off but I don't buy it. We came up against a good pack and each bashed each other. Can't expect to steamroll every team
Been banging that drum since last season when it became glaringly obvious vs Melbourne when they ran those plays all based on burning us out wide with Paps running or kicks behind into space.

Some teams have a couple of good speedsters in the back 5, we don't even have one. I don't know who our solution is either. It'll be a tough call on someone back there.
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GreenMachine
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by GreenMachine »

Penrith reminded me of the Roosters early 2020 when everything went their way and they were favourites....

Then Radley and Verrils got injured and all that early season peak form counted for nothing.

Like I said previously, we’re lucky we copped this loss early. We have a long time to work out how to get better...

The problem as I see it, is that it involves some uncomfortable decisions to be made by Ricky...
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Wiki Special »

Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 8:33 pm That’s on Young I’m afraid
He gave up possession because he couldn’t manage his emotions in game

Whitehead trying to defend out wide is a problem
Just re-reading the Topic, I thought the game turning penalty when in possession was for Rapana 'lashing' out with his feet. That was what Sutton originally said but I was at a mates place and lots of chatter. Was it for Young coming in?
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Canberra Milk
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Canberra Milk »

It's better than before though, where you'd lose like 50 metres from a penalty kick into touch, from a questionable ruck penalty. It was almost like gifting points. I'm pretty sure we used to rely on such penalties to get into getting tryscoring positions lol
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Raider47 »

Pretty interesting that both Scott and Kris have probably become or should become our first picked backline players after their respective 2020 seasons.

Not sure if that is interesting or just concerning.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Raider Azz »


Sterlk wrote:Bit annoyed by the viking clap taunt. You expect low-class out of that area, though it wouldn't be nearly so aggravating if they didn't put themselves so firmly in the driver's seat through foul play.
I wouldn't be too bothered by that. All that proves is we got a great thing with the Viking clap and they wish they had something similar.

Instead all they have is that horrible panther "roar" that plays over the speakers 100 times a game

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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Botman »

Wiki Special wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:43 am
Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 8:33 pm That’s on Young I’m afraid
He gave up possession because he couldn’t manage his emotions in game

Whitehead trying to defend out wide is a problem
Just re-reading the Topic, I thought the game turning penalty when in possession was for Rapana 'lashing' out with his feet. That was what Sutton originally said but I was at a mates place and lots of chatter. Was it for Young coming in?
Yeah the referee initially asked the video ref to look at rapana lashing out with his foot, but after review on the telecast you heard and saw the official explaining to Hodgson that the penalty was going against us for Young coming in as a 3rd man
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Jado639 »

All of you saying stick is a poor coach and should be moved on are blind. What's he's done with this group is unreal. The players believe in him and he gets the best out of them. Players are coming to the club because of him.
Before Ricky came on as coach who was coming to the club? How many finals and GFs had we made?
Face it Canberra is not a attractive place to live for the best players in the nrl. He's gotta work miracles with average players or bring juniors through the ranks. Who would you replace him with?

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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Botman »

BadnMean wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:42 am
Canberra Milk wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:36 am On reflection, I think the missing piece between us and the top teams is attacking flair, speed. Look at Tedesco, Lil Pap, Luai etc. That's the difference between us and them, and perhaps some game management

Every other area we're fine in and matched them. There was talk of our forwards being a bit off but I don't buy it. We came up against a good pack and each bashed each other. Can't expect to steamroll every team
Been banging that drum since last season when it became glaringly obvious vs Melbourne when they ran those plays all based on burning us out wide with Paps running or kicks behind into space.

Some teams have a couple of good speedsters in the back 5, we don't even have one. I don't know who our solution is either. It'll be a tough call on someone back there.
The missing link is a ball playing fullback. As i've been saying for some time now, we cant score out of basic structure, which is the sweep/block play because our fullback cant pass.

Teams generally score one of two ways

1. Block/Sweep plays... standard structure, block/sweep play, teams run the same basic shape and the half reads and reacts. He goes short to the lead runner if they're overplaying the fullback, or out the back to the fullback if they're protecting the inside shoulder correctly. And then it's the fullbacks job to read and react... can he beat the outside shoulder of the half with speed? Can he engage the centre and draw and pass, or are they playing up and in and the money ball to the winger unmarked is the play?

2. Individual brilliance... player X does something special, beats his man and creates out of nothing.

We cant score through option 1, all we have it option 2.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Northern Raider »

Raider Azz wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:52 am
Sterlk wrote:Bit annoyed by the viking clap taunt. You expect low-class out of that area, though it wouldn't be nearly so aggravating if they didn't put themselves so firmly in the driver's seat through foul play.
I wouldn't be too bothered by that. All that proves is we got a great thing with the Viking clap and they wish they had something similar.

Instead all they have is that horrible panther "roar" that plays over the speakers 100 times a game

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Yep, come across more as jealousy than anything else. Panthers have no kind of war cry themselves so they're only left with copying that of the opposition.
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Botman
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Botman »

Anyone getting upset at fans or players doing that needs to toughen up.
That's the nature of sports, fans will take the piss out of the things you do as a club
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by -PJ- »

Northern Raider wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:19 am
Raider Azz wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:52 am
Sterlk wrote:Bit annoyed by the viking clap taunt. You expect low-class out of that area, though it wouldn't be nearly so aggravating if they didn't put themselves so firmly in the driver's seat through foul play.
I wouldn't be too bothered by that. All that proves is we got a great thing with the Viking clap and they wish they had something similar.

Instead all they have is that horrible panther "roar" that plays over the speakers 100 times a game

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk
Yep, come across more as jealousy than anything else. Panthers have no kind of war cry themselves so they're only left with copying that of the opposition.
You’d think they’d come up with a Tik-Tok vid or something..
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by -PJ- »

Its what happens away from home, it’s hostile.

So their imitating our Viking Clap..big deal.

Back in the day you were spat at.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

Botman wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:13 am

The missing link is a ball playing fullback. As i've been saying for some time now, we cant score out of basic structure, which is the sweep/block play because our fullback cant pass.

Teams generally score one of two ways

1. Block/Sweep plays... standard structure, block/sweep play, teams run the same basic shape and the half reads and reacts. He goes short to the lead runner if they're overplaying the fullback, or out the back to the fullback if they're protecting the inside shoulder correctly. And then it's the fullbacks job to read and react... can he beat the outside shoulder of the half with speed? Can he engage the centre and draw and pass, or are they playing up and in and the money ball to the winger unmarked is the play?

2. Individual brilliance... player X does something special, beats his man and creates out of nothing.

We cant score through option 1, all we have it option 2.
That's gonna be hard because I don't see that changing. Ricky isn't moving CNK. He steps ok, brilliant defensive FB, does all the grunt work (when I'd rather he focussed on backing up and quality myself). That seems to make Ricky happy. He's not asking for more and in fact we almost stopped using those plays and have adapted to running Jack and George on the same side in traditional roles more often.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Botman »

Yeah i agree
its not changing this year and i think we did start to see some things change about how we're trying to attack teams and the standard shape we play out of
Injuries and HIA have limited our ability to continue to develop that in the last 2 of the last 3 weeks
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:13 am
BadnMean wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:42 am
Canberra Milk wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:36 am On reflection, I think the missing piece between us and the top teams is attacking flair, speed. Look at Tedesco, Lil Pap, Luai etc. That's the difference between us and them, and perhaps some game management

Every other area we're fine in and matched them. There was talk of our forwards being a bit off but I don't buy it. We came up against a good pack and each bashed each other. Can't expect to steamroll every team
Been banging that drum since last season when it became glaringly obvious vs Melbourne when they ran those plays all based on burning us out wide with Paps running or kicks behind into space.

Some teams have a couple of good speedsters in the back 5, we don't even have one. I don't know who our solution is either. It'll be a tough call on someone back there.
The missing link is a ball playing fullback. As i've been saying for some time now, we cant score out of basic structure, which is the sweep/block play because our fullback cant pass.

Teams generally score one of two ways

1. Block/Sweep plays... standard structure, block/sweep play, teams run the same basic shape and the half reads and reacts. He goes short to the lead runner if they're overplaying the fullback, or out the back to the fullback if they're protecting the inside shoulder correctly. And then it's the fullbacks job to read and react... can he beat the outside shoulder of the half with speed? Can he engage the centre and draw and pass, or are they playing up and in and the money ball to the winger unmarked is the play?

2. Individual brilliance... player X does something special, beats his man and creates out of nothing.

We cant score through option 1, all we have it option 2.
There is a 3rd option. Second phase play from an offload. Reckon that creates more tries than sweep/block plays these days.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by afgtnk »

The cold hard reality to me is that this team cannot evolve if it does not have a capable second receiver playing fullback and/or decent support player, and at least two or three outside backs who have a good mix of power, speed, and finishing ability.

There is no getting around this. Our attack is not going to evolve magically and come good. This is literally what it is if we dont't change. We will not be capable of taking full advantage of the inroads our forwards make in the middle. Our halves and hooker will not have enough to work with in order to create for the team.

At the moment we have a lot going for us - a lot to like. We are comfortably a top six team. Definitely far, far from doomsday. The next step is required though and to me that is what it will take.
Last edited by afgtnk on April 10, 2021, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Botman »

Northern Raider wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:39 am There is a 3rd option. Second phase play from an offload. Reckon that creates more tries than sweep/block plays these days.
I sort of put that in individual brilliance field
It's a player throwing a good offload and generally speaking a player doing something in broken field to create out of nothing.
But if you wanted to classify it seperately you can

Point is we cant reliably score out of basic structure. We have to find points in other ways
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:47 am
Northern Raider wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:39 am There is a 3rd option. Second phase play from an offload. Reckon that creates more tries than sweep/block plays these days.
I sort of put that in individual brilliance field
It's a player throwing a good offload and generally speaking a player doing something in broken field to create out of nothing.
But if you wanted to classify it seperately you can

Point is we cant reliably score out of basic structure. We have to find points in other ways
That's a big bucket you've got then. Any try that isn't a sweep/block goes to individual brilliance. :)

An offload is only as effective as the team's preparedness and ability to take advantage. Offloads are common. Tries from them are less so. Our first try was a perfect example. Whitehead with a great offload. Williams with the quick catch and pass to get the ball to Wighton who cuts back in beating 2 defenders to score. It's not an individual effort. Everyone needs to do their part to create that try.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by GreenMachine »

Offloads are meaningless if you don't have instinctive players anticipating the offload with the speed to finish.

We lack speed....we knew this at the start of the season but signed another middle...effectively sending two of our young middles to reserve grade and loading our bench with two middles and two hookers....were handicapping ourselves before a ball is kicked.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by gangrenous »

What is the reason why Wighton can’t run the fullback role in a sweep play?
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Botman »

Yeah pretty much
I mean its set moves that attack specific points in a defensive line and rely on the defenders making an error, and the vast majority of those are sweep/block plays
or it's not

Maybe a better way for me to state it now that we're talking this through is you can score from structured, planned movements or unstructured play.
we dont have the requisite ball playing to reliably score a lot of points in structure. We'll have games where it clicks or movements that we can run that work, but generally speaking our set peices are not very threatening save for the crash ball to the second man forward.

Out of structure play is how we score most of our points
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by GreenMachine »

gangrenous wrote: April 10, 2021, 10:02 am What is the reason why Wighton can’t run the fullback role in a sweep play?
Id say it's because CNK doesn't have the hands to play the second receiver.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by gangrenous »

Botman wrote:
Wiki Special wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:43 am
Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 8:33 pm That’s on Young I’m afraid
He gave up possession because he couldn’t manage his emotions in game

Whitehead trying to defend out wide is a problem
Just re-reading the Topic, I thought the game turning penalty when in possession was for Rapana 'lashing' out with his feet. That was what Sutton originally said but I was at a mates place and lots of chatter. Was it for Young coming in?
Yeah the referee initially asked the video ref to look at rapana lashing out with his foot, but after review on the telecast you heard and saw the official explaining to Hodgson that the penalty was going against us for Young coming in as a 3rd man
What a soft penalty it was too. Shoves like that on the tackling player happen 10 times a game and you almost never see the attacking team penalised.

I’d have to look again but it’s not like Hudson runs in, he’s there and shoves Kikau due to him dropping the shoulder and contacting Rapana in the head.

The onfield ref made a **** call. The video ref looked for the first thing he could find that kept the result the same.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Botman »

gangrenous wrote: April 10, 2021, 10:02 am What is the reason why Wighton can’t run the fullback role in a sweep play?
I remember having this discussion before and there is no reason we cant do it, and they are doing some stuff like that, we see a lot more of Jack and George linking up than almost any other club. And for the most part that's where we look more dangerous in structure.., how successful will it be long term if that become the standard look for us? Im not sure.

Because now the defence can adjust numbers to which ever side of the ball Jack is on, because chances are that's where the footy is headed. You'd probably have CNK playing short side "half" and when they go short side, you're looking for Hodgson to draw defenders and CNK or his outside men to break tackles one on one, since the numbers are probably on the open side. Also could be useful with Hodgson kicking out of hooker close to the line for CNK, because the fullback will likely cheat to the open side where Jack is

It's something i do think we should be exploring. Because at this point we have nothing to lose.
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

Northern Raider wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:39 am
There is a 3rd option. Second phase play from an offload. Reckon that creates more tries than sweep/block plays these days.
In that case we want CHN in the team pronto. He's honestly one of the best offloads in the game. It's a real feature. We'd need halves and CNK to be smart in backing up off him.

The other guy with an offload in his game is Hors. Trade steady old Sia in for crazyhorse is an option.
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Canberra Milk
Laurie Daley
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Re: 2021 Rd 5 V Panthers: Game Day

Post by Canberra Milk »

Agree. Maybe we should go the whole hog and go completely unstructured like 2008. I don't know anymore
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