Jarrod Croker

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zim
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by zim »

You think maybe a matrix would be a better shape? Sorry scheme. Matrix scheme.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

mick63 wrote: April 4, 2021, 7:55 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 3, 2021, 11:19 pm
tommyhud9 wrote: April 3, 2021, 11:01 pm Rapana is on the chopping block long before Jarrod.
v Titans

Rapana
Runs 19
Metres 142
Tackle Breaks 7
Missed tackles 1
Tries 1

Croker
Runs 3
Metres 30
Tackle breaks 0
Missed tackles 6
Try assists 1

Yep Raps is definitely the problem.
I don’t know where you got the stats from but after rewatching the match I can tell you that Crocker had two hit ups.
One from a penalty for 10 m
The other a genuine hit up for 6 then pushed back two for 4 net
The next time he took the ball up was on the last play when the ball was stripped and a penalty was given,so it shouldn’t have counted.
I guess they must count the metres he made in setting up Rapana as a completed hit up, even though he wasn't tackled.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by mick63 »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: April 5, 2021, 6:44 am
mick63 wrote: April 4, 2021, 7:55 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 3, 2021, 11:19 pm
tommyhud9 wrote: April 3, 2021, 11:01 pm Rapana is on the chopping block long before Jarrod.
v Titans

Rapana
Runs 19
Metres 142
Tackle Breaks 7
Missed tackles 1
Tries 1

Croker
Runs 3
Metres 30
Tackle breaks 0
Missed tackles 6
Try assists 1

Yep Raps is definitely the problem.
I don’t know where you got the stats from but after rewatching the match I can tell you that Crocker had two hit ups.
One from a penalty for 10 m
The other a genuine hit up for 6 then pushed back two for 4 net
The next time he took the ball up was on the last play when the ball was stripped and a penalty was given,so it shouldn’t have counted.
I guess they must count the metres he made in setting up Rapana as a completed hit up, even though he wasn't tackled.
I reckon you are right.The link he provided was about 15 metres.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Neeeegz »

I love Croker don't get me wrong, but you don't win comps with slow centres that are defensively suspect.
Great goal kicker, great club man and a likeable all round good bloke.
But at some stage he will get the tap on the shoulder. And I think Ricky will give him until mid season to see if he can get any form back.. if not, then maybe its time for the call to be made
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by RTW »

Neeeegz wrote:I love Croker don't get me wrong, but you don't win comps with slow centres that are defensively suspect.
Great goal kicker, great club man and a likeable all round good bloke.
But at some stage he will get the tap on the shoulder. And I think Ricky will give him until mid season to see if he can get any form back.. if not, then maybe its time for the call to be made
Brenko Lee won the Grand Final last year. If you looked up defensively suspect in the dictionary you would find a picture of Brenko Lee.


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Jarrod Croker

Post by gangrenous »

rayden83 wrote: Lol I love you always speak for everyone. Like everyone in Rugby League land including coaches, players, ex players, journalists etc “knows” that this stat is garbage, like it’s an inside secret only the privileged and elite know about, while all us peasants continually blind ourselves with this useless stat. :lol:
Botman’s world is black and white.

Should you use missed tackle stats directly with small sample sizes and no context? No, for many of the above stated reasons.

Can they still be useful in aggregate and with appropriate context to have some value? Yeah they can. How much value depending on what you’re trying to probe/model/argue and whether you can capture the relevant context in comparisons you’re making. Controlling for defensive structure is a good example Botman has already pointed out.

Like other things in life - it’s not the magnitude of the stat that matters most, it’s how you use it.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Neeeegz »

RTW wrote: April 5, 2021, 7:54 am
Neeeegz wrote:I love Croker don't get me wrong, but you don't win comps with slow centres that are defensively suspect.
Great goal kicker, great club man and a likeable all round good bloke.
But at some stage he will get the tap on the shoulder. And I think Ricky will give him until mid season to see if he can get any form back.. if not, then maybe its time for the call to be made
Brenko Lee won the Grand Final last year. If you looked up defensively suspect in the dictionary you would find a picture of Brenko Lee.


He looked alright to me, he has size and some speed at least.
Croker doesn't
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Seiffert82 »

I agree that Croker isn't offering a huge amount of impact with the ball, but he is a smart, experienced centre and his side in defence always looks well controlled and structured, even though he sometimes doesn't stick his first contact. He almost never gets caught out of position, he is outstanding at defending kicks and while his opposite number might bounce out of a tackle or two, it's incredibly rare that they make clean linebreaks.

With the ball he just about always makes good decisions to set up his winger. I'm looking for Jack to start giving him better service on that edge.

I think Toots is doing exactly what Stuart is after. I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes against Penrith.
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Jarrod Croker

Post by LastRaider »

One interesting note. When Stuart was interviewed last week before Croker’s come back game, the commenters asked Stuart what Croker brings to the team? There was an awkward silence, then Stuart said “he brings a calming influence”. Nothing said like “he is a great attacking weapon, nothing about his defence or kick chase just “calming influences” I think that sez it all.

I also saw in the telegraph last week he is on $600,000 per season with an option in his favour for 2024! 4 more long years to go


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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Raiders666 »

Signing Croker to a long term contract is going to look very silly.. I love him but his form is declining at an alarming rate
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by -TW- »

He's coming back from a major reco so I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt

If it doesn't improve later in the season then it's a valid discussion

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Raider Azz »

LastRaider wrote:One interesting note. When Stuart was interviewed last week before Croker’s come back game, the commenters asked Stuart what Croker brings to the team? There was an awkward silence, then Stuart said “he brings a calming influence”. Nothing said like “he is a great attacking weapon, nothing about his defence or kick chase just “calming influences” I think that sez it all.

I also saw in the telegraph last week he is on $600,000 per season with an option in his favour for 2024! 4 more long years to go


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If Ricky didn't rate Croker, he wouldn't be in the side. No amount of over-analysis of press conference questions is going to change that. I'm looking forward to watching him over the next 4 more short years break more club and NRL records and lift the premiership trophy.

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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Canberra Milk »

Botman wrote: March 22, 2021, 6:20 pm The thing that is NEVER considered with these things are the human element

Stuart is a players coach. More than that he's a veterans players coach. He's establishing a culture and a huge part of that culture has been he and his captain setting an example. Croker is an extremely well liked and well respected member of the team, further more he's the club captain and the public face of the team... if anyone thinks the coach can just drop that guy and the rest of the team is going to go on their merry way, then i would say that person has never played a team sport.

Beer bums on the lounge think a coach "wins" respect from a player group by doing this. That's VERY rarely how it work. How that move usually goes? Players lose trust and faith in the coach and you end up with a very dysfunctional club.

But as i have long argued, this is a completely pointless discussion.
Stuart has made his thoughts very clear. He's not interested in moving on from Croker. That's his leader, his guy. And he's never been anything but effusive in his praise for Croker. He'll be in the team, as captain, in his usual position as soon as the coach is comfortable he's ready physically (probably this week, if not then next for sure).
I agree, but if you pick too many players because they're good leaders or good clubmen or good blokes, the team can suffer also. It's a fine line the coach has to balance. There's also the issue of being overly loyal to veterans which has played many coaches in many sports. Again, a fine line. The other extreme is the Broncos, not enough veterans

I actually think there might be pressure on Croker in a couple of years, where Stuart might make a tough call. Not yet though, agree, not near yet
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Botman »

gangrenous wrote: April 5, 2021, 8:13 am
rayden83 wrote: Lol I love you always speak for everyone. Like everyone in Rugby League land including coaches, players, ex players, journalists etc “knows” that this stat is garbage, like it’s an inside secret only the privileged and elite know about, while all us peasants continually blind ourselves with this useless stat. :lol:
Botman’s world is black and white.

Should you use missed tackle stats directly with small sample sizes and no context? No, for many of the above stated reasons.

Can they still be useful in aggregate and with appropriate context to have some value? Yeah they can. How much value depending on what you’re trying to probe/model/argue and whether you can capture the relevant context in comparisons you’re making. Controlling for defensive structure is a good example Botman has already pointed out.

Like other things in life - it’s not the magnitude of the stat that matters most, it’s how you use it.
Haha you’ve pretty much line for line agreed with me
The stat has no value or use without significant other information contextualising it.

But that’s not how it’s used by the RL community. It’s used as THE measure of defensive performance. Even by people who should know better!
When is the last time you heard a RL commentator contextualise the mistackle stat? When was the last time you read it contextualised? Doesn’t happen. It is almost exclusively used directly and without context.

Which is why it should be fired into the sun.

The conversation that prompted my bi-weekly attack on “mistackles” was a discussion around Jarrod Croker and Sebastian Kris perceived to have been poor defensively because they had 6 and 5 mistackles respectively. GE said he thought Kris was quite strong watching the game and then he looks at the box score and doubts himself.

Rubbish. GE was right the first time. Kris did his job as a defender. As did Croker.
5 mistackles and TE % (which is really just a different way of presenting the same figure) doesn’t change that. Or at least it shouldn’t
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by gangrenous »

I think you made exactly my point again.

I don’t disagree with the arguments you’re making against the metric, they’re right. But because something has some negative aspects, or is commonly used incorrectly it should be fired into the sun and no one can use it?

Baby, bath water and what not.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Botman »

gangrenous wrote: April 5, 2021, 3:37 pm I think you made exactly my point again.

I don’t disagree with the arguments you’re making against the metric, they’re right. But because something has some negative aspects, or is commonly used incorrectly it should be fired into the sun and no one can use it?

Baby, bath water and what not.
By all means, track it, as it is one data point that along with 20 other things might feed into something that contexualises the data to give a better statistical measure of performance. But that's what this is. it's a data point that sits on a hidden sheet of your excel document and is never presented on it's own in any way, shape or form, because isolated it is not an accurate indicator of performance.

We can sit here all day and argue about how the stat could be good and meaningful if used this way and that. But im here dealing with reality on reality's terms, and that's simply not what happens. Mistackles is a stat almost exclusively used as an isolated, direct statistic with no context.
We both agree (i think?) that using it that way is utterly pointless and meaningless.

Until we have figured out a better and more accurate measure of performance (of which this data point could have some bearing on) then yes, IMO fire it into the sun, no one use it and let's all get smarter as a RL community as a result. And on a bi-weekly schedule, when i see it used directly as an isolated stat, im going to remind everyone just how **** stupid that is.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Mickey_Raider »

Croker is to the Raiders what coal is to Australia.

Decades of faithful service. Plenty of nostalgia. Uncertain future but glory years certainly behind him.

Some want him gone yesterday (the forum greenies).

Some won't hear a word against him and attack those who question him (the forum Alan Jones's).

And, in my opinion, the clear eyed analysts who see a transition over the next couple years.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by rayden83 »

Couple of years? He has until mid season. Croker’s problem is speed and strength, of which he has neither. Ironically his longevity in the side will largely be decided by how Scott and Simonssen develop and Rapana’s form. If our backline can click then we can probably afford to carry a passenger whose value to the side is primarily goalkicking, and as Stuart said his “calming influence”. But if we start losing and our backs struggle to make an impact you know who the fans will lose patience with first.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Mickey_Raider »

rayden83 wrote: April 5, 2021, 6:04 pm Couple of years? He has until mid season. Croker’s problem is speed and strength, of which he has neither. Ironically his longevity in the side will largely be decided by how Scott and Simonssen develop and Rapana’s form. If our backline can click then we can probably afford to carry a passenger whose value to the side is primarily goalkicking, and as Stuart said his “calming influence”. But if we start losing and our backs struggle to make an impact you know who the fans will lose patience with first.
“Over the next couple of years” is very different to “in a couple of years”.

If JC puts in a similar performance this year as 2020, then I think the Alan Joneses will start to become thin on the ground.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by FROG »

I thought he started the year well last year but by the end he was a major liability. However, I later attributed that to his injury. The start to this year has been slow, but again you have to remember that he hasn't had the full off season that others have. Ok, I'm getting to the point. I reckon their is no way stick drops him this year if he's fit and frankly I reckon that's the right call, if nothing else, but for team dynamics. He is our captain after all. If however he cannot recapture the form that had him in the mix for origin, then I reckon this could be his last year as a walk up starter for the raiders
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Raider Azz »

Mickey_Raider wrote: April 5, 2021, 4:31 pm Croker is to the Raiders what coal is to Australia.

Decades of faithful service. Plenty of nostalgia. Uncertain future but glory years certainly behind him.

Some want him gone yesterday (the forum greenies).

Some won't hear a word against him and attack those who question him (the forum Alan Jones's).

And, in my opinion, the clear eyed analysts who see a transition over the next couple years.
This is such a dumb analogy, not just because it doesn't fit the Croker situation, but the fact it also reeks of "enlightened centrism".
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by -TW- »

rayden83 wrote:Couple of years? He has until mid season. Croker’s problem is speed and strength, of which he has neither. Ironically his longevity in the side will largely be decided by how Scott and Simonssen develop and Rapana’s form. If our backline can click then we can probably afford to carry a passenger whose value to the side is primarily goalkicking, and as Stuart said his “calming influence”. But if we start losing and our backs struggle to make an impact you know who the fans will lose patience with first.
Shame what "the fans" aka you doesn't make one iota of difference to what will happen with him long term

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Mickey_Raider »

Raider Azz wrote: April 6, 2021, 9:00 am
Mickey_Raider wrote: April 5, 2021, 4:31 pm Croker is to the Raiders what coal is to Australia.

Decades of faithful service. Plenty of nostalgia. Uncertain future but glory years certainly behind him.

Some want him gone yesterday (the forum greenies).

Some won't hear a word against him and attack those who question him (the forum Alan Jones's).

And, in my opinion, the clear eyed analysts who see a transition over the next couple years.
This is such a dumb analogy, not just because it doesn't fit the Croker situation, but the fact it also reeks of "enlightened centrism".
It’s a gloriously appropriate analogy and you know it.

Not sure about the “enlightened centrism” thing.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by pickles »

It was nice to see Croker surpass Andrew John's points tally to move into number 4 of all time and a definite opportunity to move into 3rd before the end of the season with less than 50 more points required to go past Thurston!
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Seiffert82 »

Imagine the grief poor old Toots would get if he was actually playing as badly as some are making out, our other centres were fit and the team was losing.

Dire times.
Last edited by Seiffert82 on April 6, 2021, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by gangrenous »

Mickey_Raider wrote: It’s a gloriously appropriate analogy and you know it.

Not sure about the “enlightened centrism” thing.
Certainly not perfect. ScoMo hasn’t fondled him in Parliament House that I’m aware of...
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by pickles »

Seiffert82 wrote: April 6, 2021, 3:05 pm Imagine the grief poor old Toots would get if he was actually playing as badly as some are making out, our other centres were fit and the team was losing.

Dire times.
In fact he has been playing so badly for so long that he is on the brink of being one of the top point scorers of all time! Clearly not up to NRL standard though, not even close!
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Finchy »

pickles wrote: April 6, 2021, 3:02 pm It was nice to see Croker surpass Andrew John's points tally to move into number 4 of all time and a definite opportunity to move into 3rd before the end of the season with less than 50 more points required to go past Thurston!
Minor details, but he is equal fourth (tied with Johns) thanks to Rapa kicking the ball out at the end instead of allowing Croker to have the shot at penalty goal. He'll be outright fourth this week, hopefully overtake Thurston in a few weeks. It's not out of the question he could be outright second by year's end (injury and form permitting). Only needs 243 points to beat El Masri.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by rayden83 »

pickles wrote: April 6, 2021, 3:27 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 6, 2021, 3:05 pm Imagine the grief poor old Toots would get if he was actually playing as badly as some are making out, our other centres were fit and the team was losing.

Dire times.
In fact he has been playing so badly for so long that he is on the brink of being one of the top point scorers of all time! Clearly not up to NRL standard though, not even close!
Just to put that comment into perspective, Croker had more kicks at goal on the weekend than runs with the ball. By scoring some points does that mean he had a successful game? No.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Botman »

Putting it into more perspective, he didnt concede any points, set up a try and kicked 4 goals
For those counting at home (and to help rayden with his homework) that's a +12 point contribution.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by -TW- »

rayden83 wrote:
pickles wrote: April 6, 2021, 3:27 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 6, 2021, 3:05 pm Imagine the grief poor old Toots would get if he was actually playing as badly as some are making out, our other centres were fit and the team was losing.

Dire times.
In fact he has been playing so badly for so long that he is on the brink of being one of the top point scorers of all time! Clearly not up to NRL standard though, not even close!
Just to put that comment into perspective, Croker had more kicks at goal on the weekend than runs with the ball. By scoring some points does that mean he had a successful game? No.
Considering the aim of the game is to score points by that logic he did have a successful game...

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by pickles »

Botman wrote:Putting it into more perspective, he didnt concede any points, set up a try and kicked 4 goals
For those counting at home (and to help rayden with his homework) that's a +12 point contribution.
He also earned a handy 6 again with one of his runs that doesn’t show up on the stats but better not let facts get in the way of a good witch hunt!
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by The Nickman »

Oooof, rayden has quite a few balls to get out of his net right now.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by raiderskater »

LastRaider wrote: April 5, 2021, 10:04 am One interesting note. When Stuart was interviewed last week before Croker’s come back game, the commenters asked Stuart what Croker brings to the team? There was an awkward silence, then Stuart said “he brings a calming influence”. Nothing said like “he is a great attacking weapon, nothing about his defence or kick chase just “calming influences” I think that sez it all.

I also saw in the telegraph last week he is on $600,000 per season with an option in his favour for 2024! 4 more long years to go


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I find it hilarious that you and others are using this as proof of something negative.

Someone remind me what happened the week before against the Sharks?

I seem to recall...what was it...oh yeah, WE COMPLETELY LOST OUR ****ING HEADS.

I wonder why the coach might have picked out the returning captain's calming influence as a valuable asset in that context...?
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by The Nickman »

raiderskater wrote: April 7, 2021, 1:14 pm
LastRaider wrote: April 5, 2021, 10:04 am One interesting note. When Stuart was interviewed last week before Croker’s come back game, the commenters asked Stuart what Croker brings to the team? There was an awkward silence, then Stuart said “he brings a calming influence”. Nothing said like “he is a great attacking weapon, nothing about his defence or kick chase just “calming influences” I think that sez it all.

I also saw in the telegraph last week he is on $600,000 per season with an option in his favour for 2024! 4 more long years to go


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I find it hilarious that you and others are using this as proof of something negative.

Someone remind me what happened the week before against the Sharks?

I seem to recall...what was it...oh yeah, WE COMPLETELY LOST OUR ****ING HEADS.

I wonder why the coach might have picked out the returning captain's calming influence as a valuable asset in that context...?
The week before was against the Warriors, but otherwise you are spot on.
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