Jarrod Croker

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rayden83
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Jarrod Croker

Post by rayden83 »

Have seen enough of Kris and Scott to determine that these two should be our default centre pairing going forward. Scott has improved immensely from last year and Kris is a strong ball runner which we lacked last year after losing BJ. Both also have significant upside, unlike Croker who faded badly last year and is now in his 30s. He has a decent pass and can catch a high ball but the game is now more physical and muscular and he seems like a featherweight out there at times.

There’s no logical reason to retain Croker in the starting side, which means that he would drop out of the 17. There are however strong emotional reasons; captain, loyal servant, community service, great bloke etc, but none of these will help us get nearer to a Premiership. His leadership and goal kicking are easily replaced by Hodgson and Williams.

Not to say his career is totally finished as he would serve decent back up in the event of injury (behind Timoko) but I dont think we can guarantee him a starting place anymore. The question is do we place more value on loyalty to players or leaving no stone unturned to win a Prem? With Croker we can make top 4 but against the big guns in the crunch games he will let us down. It must be a difficult situation for Stuart but that’s why he’s paid the big bucks. Team success comes first imo.
Last edited by rayden83 on March 22, 2021, 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Raiders666 »

Grabs popcorn
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by nachopants »

rayden83 wrote: March 22, 2021, 5:12 pm Mounties.
Bruh.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by rayden83 »

nachopants wrote: March 22, 2021, 5:21 pm
rayden83 wrote: March 22, 2021, 5:12 pm Mounties.
Bruh.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Botman »

The thing that is NEVER considered with these things are the human element

Stuart is a players coach. More than that he's a veterans players coach. He's establishing a culture and a huge part of that culture has been he and his captain setting an example. Croker is an extremely well liked and well respected member of the team, further more he's the club captain and the public face of the team... if anyone thinks the coach can just drop that guy and the rest of the team is going to go on their merry way, then i would say that person has never played a team sport.

Beer bums on the lounge think a coach "wins" respect from a player group by doing this. That's VERY rarely how it work. How that move usually goes? Players lose trust and faith in the coach and you end up with a very dysfunctional club.

But as i have long argued, this is a completely pointless discussion.
Stuart has made his thoughts very clear. He's not interested in moving on from Croker. That's his leader, his guy. And he's never been anything but effusive in his praise for Croker. He'll be in the team, as captain, in his usual position as soon as the coach is comfortable he's ready physically (probably this week, if not then next for sure).
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Rickmando »

Brave post. The “awkward” conversation has been brewing for 2 years or so, I personally have felt he’s our weak link for ages.

Now there is actually some legitimate competition for the position in Seb Kris.

I actually believe the right thing to do is to let Croker come back into the FG side when fit. He’s done his rehab, he’s given the club a lot of service, he’s the skipper.

HOWEVER, he should be on a short leash - perhaps given until mid season to demonstrate he still has the game for the NRL. If he isn’t giving us what we’ve seen Kris can give us then he should be dropped far enough out from finals for it not to be a distraction.

I have zero faith that Stick would actually do something like this though, he will be blindly loyal to Croker til the bitter end (even if it costs us wins). He’s stubborn like that
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Matt »

Everyone go back and read Botmans post. Coz that's what's happening
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Azza »

Way too early to make these calls after 2 games. I'm not sure Croker has that long left, but he'll be back this year as our centre.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by sprintman »

Crokers days are over. They have been for quite some time...
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

Botman wrote:The thing that is NEVER considered with these things are the human element

Stuart is a players coach. More than that he's a veterans players coach. He's establishing a culture and a huge part of that culture has been he and his captain setting an example. Croker is an extremely well liked and well respected member of the team, further more he's the club captain and the public face of the team... if anyone thinks the coach can just drop that guy and the rest of the team is going to go on their merry way, then i would say that person has never played a team sport.

Beer bums on the lounge think a coach "wins" respect from a player group by doing this. That's VERY rarely how it work. How that move usually goes? Players lose trust and faith in the coach and you end up with a very dysfunctional club.

But as i have long argued, this is a completely pointless discussion.
Stuart has made his thoughts very clear. He's not interested in moving on from Croker. That's his leader, his guy. And he's never been anything but effusive in his praise for Croker. He'll be in the team, as captain, in his usual position as soon as the coach is comfortable he's ready physically (probably this week, if not then next for sure).
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Botman »

The inconvenient truth, call me Frank Gore.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:36 pm The inconvenient truth, call me Frank Gore.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Botman »

Northern Raider wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:36 pm
Botman wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:36 pm The inconvenient truth, call me Frank Gore.
Goreman
Hang on a sec... gotta put in a name change request :lol:
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: March 22, 2021, 6:20 pm The thing that is NEVER considered with these things are the human element

Stuart is a players coach. More than that he's a veterans players coach. He's establishing a culture and a huge part of that culture has been he and his captain setting an example. Croker is an extremely well liked and well respected member of the team, further more he's the club captain and the public face of the team... if anyone thinks the coach can just drop that guy and the rest of the team is going to go on their merry way, then i would say that person has never played a team sport.
I get all of that but the captain has to do the job on the park, they just can’t be there because they are the “public face of the team”. There are ways to deal with managing players out of the team, especially those with high profiles, and that is a skill Stuart will have to learn, especially if Kris continues to shine. The bottom line is is Croker good enough to be playing? If he isn’t then he should be dropped, it can’t bode well for club culture when the worst player in your team is also Captain. He showed last year, when he was rag dolled by Melbourne Storm’s backs in the prelim, that there are considerable questions on his ability to take this team to Premiership glory.

I also don’t think this is a pointless discussion. If Croker continues to flap and flail there will be considerable pressure on Stuart to drop him.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Raiders666 »

I'd like to see how he goes this year before writing him off.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Botman »

rayden83 wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:45 pm I also don’t think this is a pointless discussion. If Croker continues to flap and flail there will be considerable pressure on Stuart to drop him.
No. There wont. There is NO pressure from anyone who matters.
Not from the playing group. Not from coaches inside our club. Not from the administration. Not from 90% of the fans who love Croker. Not from the media who all respect him.
There is no pressure. It doesnt exist in any other sphere outside niche discussions boards like this.

That's why it is pointless. He is 12 months of, to be frank, 2020 round 4-8 Curtis Scott level performance before there is any real pressure on Stuart and Croker whatsoever. Rightly or wrongly, that is what it is.
Last edited by Botman on March 22, 2021, 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by greeneyed »

The coach has said he's coming back in at left centre, that he merits and deserves it. Agree with Ricky on this one.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by bonehead »

he's had 1 ordinary season and finished it off injured, a rarity for the guy.

Hang him high GH!

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Re: End of Croker?

Post by zim »

Botman wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:55 pm
rayden83 wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:45 pm I also don’t think this is a pointless discussion. If Croker continues to flap and flail there will be considerable pressure on Stuart to drop him.
No. There wont. There is NO pressure from anyone who matters.
Not from the playing group. Not from coaches inside our club. Not from the administration. Not from 90% of the fans who love Croker. Not from the media who all respect him.
There is no pressure. It doesnt exist in any other sphere outside niche discussions boards like this.

That's why it is pointless. He is 12 months of, to be frank, 2020 round 4-8 Curtis Scott level performance before there is any real pressure on Stuart and Croker whatsoever. Rightly or wrongly, that is what it is.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:55 pm
rayden83 wrote: March 22, 2021, 7:45 pm I also don’t think this is a pointless discussion. If Croker continues to flap and flail there will be considerable pressure on Stuart to drop him.
No. There wont. There is NO pressure from anyone who matters.
Not from the playing group. Not from coaches inside our club. Not from the administration. Not from 90% of the fans who love Croker. Not from the media who all respect him.
There is no pressure. It doesnt exist in any other sphere outside niche discussions boards like this.
It’s amazing how well you know everyone. :lol: At the end of the day no individual player is greater than the club, no player is beyond scrutiny simply because of who they are or how matey they are with club coach. The role of Captain isn’t simply to be a good bloke and liked by the media, it’s to deliver results. Many here have grown disaffected with Croker and those concerns will only grow if he continues his baseline form from last season, where eventually it will spillover into the public sphere. I fear for Croker, physically he doesn’t have the tools and it would be a shame to lose a potential gun like Kris to another club in the search of game time. I wish Croker all the best but I fear the writing is on the wall.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Raider Azz »

Jarrod Croker will be our starting centre as long as he is healthy and he and his coach still think he can contribute to the side. The very vocal, very boring and very small minority on this forum are just going to have to deal with that.

Personally I look forward to him lifting the NRL trophy at the end of the season as our captain. No one in the side deserves that more than him.

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Last edited by Raider Azz on March 22, 2021, 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by casta66 »

The front page of tomorrows Times is a photo of Croker and Rapana on Rapas roof drinking Cruisers, flipping the bird.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Botman »

I dont know anyone well. I am governed by common sense. Which generally speaking, has served me well. I do feel like i have a pretty good handle on this club and coach and how they are with Croker.

And the writing can be on the wall for you and a handful of others HERE. Respect that. Appreciate that. But you dont matter. I dont matter. HERE doesnt matter. The loud minority doesnt matter. They're not listening anymore than they did in the Elliott or Furner era.
The decision makers on this front are Ricky Stuart, Peter Mulholland, Don Furner Jr and Allan Hawke (nee John McIntyre) and i am fairly certain not a single one of them. Not ONE. Is feeling anyway pressured what so ever. Croker fits in all the ways they need him too. On and off the field.

I go back to a point i made in my initial post. You dont understand a team dynamic and the human elements of this. This is not fantasy football. You cant just **** can someone like him and keep it moving. This a workplace like any other. HR is arguably the most important part of roster building

Croker is going to get his job back. End of story.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by rayden83 »

go back to a point i made in my initial post. You dont understand a team dynamic and the human elements of this. This is not fantasy football.

——-

Lol a “team dynamic” and “human elements” do not extend to supporting a player who cannot deliver the goods on the park. If Croker goes poorly the fans, and eventually club will turn on Croker. He is only 30, what if we wants to play through till 34-35, do we just continue to support him, no matter what?

No player is above the club. That’s common sense.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Botman »

Eventually is the right term
The general fan base, outside again, the loud minority... and most importantly the club are 12 months of truly ghastly football away from that "eventuality"

THat's what you're missing.
No player is above the club is a term often parroted by people who dont understand that it's a phrase about culture first and foremost. Every move Stuart has made has show he values culture first and foremost. He believes culture comes first, this community and building the team to connect to it is a major passion for him

You're not listening to him or the club if you think there is any pressure on croker. Simple as that. You can disagree with that, but it is what it is.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by -TW- »

Pretty sure if you axe the captain point blank, your key players would be lining up to ask for releases

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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Botman »

-TW- wrote: March 22, 2021, 8:52 pm Pretty sure if you axe the captain point blank, your key players would be lining up to ask for releases

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Certainly it will undercut any leverage to have to play the loyalty, build with us card. The downfall of the Furner era ultimately came when Furner valued talent over culture. And his brother sacked him a few weeks later because the playing group said "yeah, nah. **** that"

Again, this is ultimately a workplace with complicated hierachy and relationships. It's not SuperCoach.

Harsh reality. Croker is coming back. Who makes way is up for debate. But he's coming back. And no one who actually matters is in disagreement with that decision.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by greeneyed »

Ricky Stuart made the call on Terry Campese, that it was time for him to call time in the NRL, and he'll make a tough call on any player. But Ricky Stuart has made his call and made it very clear, that Jarrod merits and deserves to come back from injury into his No. 3 spot.

When it comes time for Jarrod to retire, that'll be worked through respectfully on the club's part, and Jarrod will probably know and want to do what's best for himself, but also the club too... because he loves the club, he's humble and that's the sort of guy he is. That's why everyone respects him. But that time is a long way off, IMO. And when he does retire, he'll have all sorts of club records, and will be one of the Raiders all time fan favourites.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Lui_Bon »

A few weeks ago I watched one of those Fox sports things "All the tries", from Jarrod Croker. There's a hundred of them. And an awful lot of either really skillful or really tough ones.

If he can't do that anymore compared to a couple of blokes who've played maybe 30 or 40 games between them, then fine. Otherwise this argument is not an argument but just whiney.

If yu don't like his defence, then fine. Say that, and say who will be better at the moment.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by BJ »

Agree with Botman. Ricky likes players who set the standard off the field, knowing that it drives longer term improvements on the field for the entire club. It’s good for young players to completely earn their spot, otherwise they risk becoming a Luke Brookes or Ash Taylor.

Greeneyed is right, Stuart would make a call if Croker doesn’t perform over a long period. But we are far from that point right now.

I do want an absolutely 100% fully fit Croker however. I hope he doesn’t rush himself.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by Old School Green »

greeneyed wrote: March 22, 2021, 9:04 pm Ricky Stuart made the call on Terry Campese, that it was time for him to call time in the NRL, and he'll make a tough call on any player. But Ricky Stuart has made his call and made it very clear, that Jarrod merits and deserves to come back from injury into his No. 3 spot.

When it comes time for Jarrod to retire, that'll be worked through respectfully on the club's part, and Jarrod will probably know and want to do what's best for himself, but also the club too... because he loves the club, he's humble and that's the sort of guy he is. That's why everyone respects him. But that time is a long way off, IMO. And when he does retire, he'll have all sorts of club records, and will be one of the Raiders all time fan favourites.
Agree with all this.
All the Kris hype after 2 solid games (a few mths ago he was on leave with most rightfully thinking never to be seen again) is way OTT.
Toots still has lots to offer and will do way more good things than bad this year when he returns.
I’m ridiculously but pleasantly surprised by Kris and his journey and what he brings, but the last thing he needs now is unrealistic pressure after a handful of first grade games.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by afgtnk »

I think it's quite clear that the threat and danger Kris can now offer is an order of magnitude or two higher than what Croker could in 2020. It's night and day - Kris has been a breath of fresh air. You want the ball to go to him, and you're excited when it does.

I agree to a large extent that no one is above being dropped and left out, and that certainly should include Croker. While he won't be publicly put under pressure to lift his game, if he isn't internally both between him and Ricky and with himself, then they aren't doing their jobs properly. He can't dish out another 2020 here with the Kris, Timoko, and HSS behind him chomping at the bit.

Botman and co. make the argument that you can't cut your captain like that for the message it sends, which I get, but you also can't keep deadweight in it for too long either, especially when you've got capable players ready to take the spot. That sends all kinds of wrong messages. The fact of the matter is that Jarrod Croker is not good enough or important enough to keep his place in the side no matter how he plays.

That being said, he is one of our captains, one of our most experienced players, and most important to me, our main goalkicker. I value that above most at present, and although George is showing some decent signs, I'm not sure if he'd be capable of averaging much above 70% in the medium to long term. For a team like ours that now likes to really grind, those extra two points really matter and possibly outweigh the benefit any replacement of his can bring.

IMO we give him another season and then re-assess from there.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by yeh raiders »

I am all for axing deadweight, but there’s no way Croker can be categorised as that.

If I’m putting the bank on one player to deliver reliably week in/week out, I’m picking Croker over Kris. It’s just too early to make the call to cut him for Kris. Halfway through the season, I might be singing a different tune, but for now it’s Croker’s spot as soon as he’s fit and ready to go.

Kris will go back to reserve grade with a grin on his face and confidence that he has a bright future ahead of him in the NRL, when the time is right.

Now, if by seasons end, Kris is demanding an NRL spot and an upgraded contract... we may have sticky situation on our hands...
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by MrPosh »

Botman is right about the culture and that enough to end the debate.

However, if this was the Bradman Best twins coming through, then there might be a decision to make, as both centre spots would be tied up.

But this is Seb Kris, a guy with a great story and a significant amount of promise, who has had a couple of good games. But, like it or not, his history places an element of risk on him.

And it's Curtis Scott. A guy who most people wanted shipping out last season who has had, again, a couple of decent games.

There might be a conversation to be had around Crocker, but two above par games for Kris and Scott should not be the trigger for that.
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Re: End of Croker?

Post by afgtnk »

yeh raiders wrote: March 23, 2021, 12:30 am I am all for axing deadweight, but there’s no way Croker can be categorised as that.

If I’m putting the bank on one player to deliver reliably week in/week out, I’m picking Croker over Kris. It’s just too early to make the call to cut him for Kris. Halfway through the season, I might be singing a different tune, but for now it’s Croker’s spot as soon as he’s fit and ready to go.

Kris will go back to reserve grade with a grin on his face and confidence that he has a bright future ahead of him in the NRL, when the time is right.

Now, if by seasons end, Kris is demanding an NRL spot and an upgraded contract... we may have sticky situation on our hands...
He's not deadweight as we speak. Too early to make that call.

If he plays this season as he did last, he's deadweight. The calls on Kris are as much projections as anything. He is showing a lot of promise and needs to be developed. At this stage, he has no business being in reserve grade. I don't want to risk us losing him doing that - other teams will snap him up if we don't play him.

Croker has a career of runs on the board, which is why he'll reclaim the #3 as soon as he's fit. Importantly though, he needs to lift and I'm hoping he can do so, for the sake of the team. Having runs on the board doesn't and shouldn't guarantee selection in perpetuity for anyone.
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