The Greenhouse

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 7:11 pm**

Youre so learned

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 7:15 pm**

It's pronounced learned.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 7:23 pm**

Seiffert82 wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 6:34 pm But nobody knows if those funds have already been allocated to retain other players.

In any case, a club would need $800k+ to lure Papenhuyzen away. Melbourne might be able to retain him for $700k.

Goes back to a point i made in a previous post
If we could make these sorts of moves and get someone like Pap or Teddy, or someone on that kind of level, I'd do every single time.
But where is that player? Pap aint leaving, and nor is Teddy. Who else is there that fits that bill?

Im quite a fan of Dufty's game, and dont agree with Simo's assessment on him as a player compared to CNK. He'd be an upgrade imo. But enough to sacrifice what would be needed to get him? Less convinced about that. I might hold my nose and take the plunge but i wouldnt begrudge anyone who said that's too risky for them

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 7:29 pm**

While we’re at it. Let’s trade CNK for Dugan and Papa for Aaron Woods.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 7:32 pm**

BJ wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 7:29 pm While we’re at it. Let’s trade CNK for Dugan and Papa for Aaron Woods.

While we're at it, i wouldnt trade CNK for Tedesco, prime Mal Meninga and a duffle bag of A-grade coke!

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 7:45 pm**

Botman wrote:
BJ wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 7:29 pm While we’re at it. Let’s trade CNK for Dugan and Papa for Aaron Woods.
While we're at it, i wouldnt trade CNK for Tedesco, prime Mal Meninga and a duffle bag of A-grade coke!

Showing my age here. But it reminds me of the classic Goodies fake advert.

“Would you trade your box of Raz washing powder for...This Rolls Royce? No. The QE2? No. The Crown Jewels? No. For two boxes of Raz? No”

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 7:53 pm**

BJ wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 7:45 pm
Botman wrote:
BJ wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 7:29 pm While we’re at it. Let’s trade CNK for Dugan and Papa for Aaron Woods.
While we're at it, i wouldnt trade CNK for Tedesco, prime Mal Meninga and a duffle bag of A-grade coke!
Showing my age here. But it reminds me of the classic Goodies fake advert.

“Would you trade your Raz washing powder for...This Rolls Royce? No. The QE2? No. The Crown Jewels? No.”

I was channeling the Final Dig and a bag full of coke and a dozen hookers

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:17 pm**

Botman wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 7:23 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 6:34 pm But nobody knows if those funds have already been allocated to retain other players.

In any case, a club would need $800k+ to lure Papenhuyzen away. Melbourne might be able to retain him for $700k.
Goes back to a point i made in a previous post
If we could make these sorts of moves and get someone like Pap or Teddy, or someone on that kind of level, I'd do every single time.
But where is that player? Pap aint leaving, and nor is Teddy. Who else is there that fits that bill?

Im quite a fan of Dufty's game, and dont agree with Simo's assessment on him as a player compared to CNK. He'd be an upgrade imo. But enough to sacrifice what would be needed to get him? Less convinced about that. I might hold my nose and take the plunge but i wouldnt begrudge anyone who said that's too risky for them

Dufty may be zippier in attacking situations. But he wouldnt have been in the frame for cnks try saver on the weekend. Id take cnks hard running, defence and commitment over duftys fleeting moments in a game

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:33 pm**

His first try saver? I dont think Dufty has the phyiscal statue to abosrd that hit and delay it long enough for Young to come in late to save it. That's a hell of a play from CNK, the contact is rock **** solid and that's a huge part of his game. Dufty is probably a speed bump and thats an easy try.

The second try saver? He's absolutely in the frame. No question about that. He's much quicker than CNK. He's there for sure. Again dont think he has the physicality that CNK has to stop that try.

So yeah, that's the trade off. You lose the last line of defence physically to get the ball playing ability of Dufty. How many tries does he fail to stop with his lack of physicality vs how many tries does he create with ball playing and speed as a support player?
The thing Dufty does have is that money ball to the winger on an overlap. So what is worth more? stopping those tries, or converting those chances for unmarked wingers?

There is no easy or simple answer. it comes down to what you value most and what your philosphy is on how to win footy games. My thoughts on it is we need to have a way to find 4 tries against teams who as good defensively as us. And im not sure we have that with CNK.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:36 pm**

Dufty can create tries with his ball play while CNK saves them with his defense. Neither can do what the other can in this regard. Is letting CNK go and replacing him with Dufty going to make us a better team all round? That I can't say.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:37 pm**

Northern Raider wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 9:36 pm Dufty can create tries with his ball play while CNK saves them with his defense. Neither can do what the other can in this regard. Is letting CNK go and replacing him with Dufty going to make us a better team all round? That I can't say.

perfectly summerised. I dont know either as it relates to Dufty.
I know as it relates to someone of Pap's abilities, but i dont feel like thats a realistic option.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:38 pm**

Botman wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 9:37 pm
Northern Raider wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 9:36 pm Dufty can create tries with his ball play while CNK saves them with his defense. Neither can do what the other can in this regard. Is letting CNK go and replacing him with Dufty going to make us a better team all round? That I can't say.
perfectly summerised. I dont know either as it relates to Dufty.
I know as it relates to someone of Pap's abilities, but i dont feel like thats a realistic option.

You used a lot more words than me.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:42 pm**

Northern Raider wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 9:38 pm
Botman wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 9:37 pm
Northern Raider wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 9:36 pm Dufty can create tries with his ball play while CNK saves them with his defense. Neither can do what the other can in this regard. Is letting CNK go and replacing him with Dufty going to make us a better team all round? That I can't say.
perfectly summerised. I dont know either as it relates to Dufty.
I know as it relates to someone of Pap's abilities, but i dont feel like thats a realistic option.
You used a lot more words than me.

Needless words as it turns out

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:44 pm**

Botman wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 12:21 pm
gangrenous wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 8:24 am Is the answer to deathride CNK and wish for a unicorn to appear from nowhere? Or to purchase one like Papenhuyzen for 1M/year and screw the team balance. No it’s not, so can we stop with this Bull in every second **** thread alphabet.
Just on this, i think that's equally Bull.
I dont think you'd need to screw the team balance at all to find 1m a year for a superstar can do it all fullback

Assuming firstly that CNK leaves and there is no freight, and for the sake of this exercise we'll assume the Warriors offer him 500k a year to replace RTS and that's substantially more money and both club and player agree to dissolve the contract and move on.

So our starting point is 350k (from memory that was his upgrade i think, happy to be corrected as my memory isnt great) and an open fullback spot.

How do you find the other money.
Let's start with the easy ones...

1. Lui, Havilii, Rapana, Soliolia and Sam Williams are all off contract at the end of 2021. I would humbly submit regardless of what happened at fullback, this should be the end of the line for those guys. Collectively, i think you could conservatively state there is 1m of salary in those players. Probably more, that would be 200k each, but lets stay conservative. Because other contracts wont stay static either, they'll rise and account for the difference here

2. You keep Frawley, Aekins, Cook and HSS on the same money they're on now (with HSS hurt and out for the year, that seems reasonable, and none of the others will have anyone banging down their door)

So you have now 1.35m and 6 positions to fill. (CNK and the 5 players we're letting walk)
So how do you replace them?

Lui is replaced by Ata Mariota/Caleb Esrea on a minimum deal.
Sia is replaced by Darby Medlyn on a minimum deal.
Havilii is replaced by Adrian Trevilyan on a minimum deal.
Williams is replaced by Brad Schneider on minimum deal
Rapana is replaced by Xavier Savage/Albert Hopoate on a minimum deal

I think a min deal is 110k, so you're paying 550k for those 5 guys. I think a team like ours still has a TON of veteran contracts and not only could handle this injection of youth, but actually probably needs it a bit. These are all guys i think the club will want to have in our system and continue to develop

You're now left with 800k and the fullback spot to fill.

But with those 5 moves, none of which i think would be unexpected, in fact right now that's exactly what i'd do irrespective of the fullback spot, and really only the Rapana move actually IMO hurts the top 17 (though we'll see how his form is at the end of the year), you're almost there

My point is not that we should do this, or the club will do this.
But if the club feels getting a stud, can do it all unicorn at fullback and assuming they can land that bird (which is not a given either) then making moves to do that is absolutely possible without impacting the balance of the squad and frankly, not impacting the depth all that much either.

I like your way of thinking but not to nit pick....pretty sure we are paying a lot more for Curtis Scott next year and the year after compared to last year and this year, so we aren't going to have $800K in this scenario.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:47 pm**

I beleieve we're on the hook for 400k for Scott next year, as opposed to 200k this year
at least that is the best i know based on reporting

i also dont believe those 5 players i mentioned are on even CLOSE to 1m collectively, it is probably much closer to 1.5 mil, and frankly maybe more.

As said, i stayed very conservative to account for other unknown factors. And im not trying to suggest these figures are facts, we'll never know that... god i hope one day we have an overthecap.com site that does give us this insight but it seems a long way off
this is best guess based on my personal opinion and reading of the decision makers at the club

I think we have the flexibility and ability to make a bold move as proposed IF we wanted to and IF there was a player worth the sacrifice
Both big IFs and i dont think that opporunity exists in the market right now. So a moot point but a fun thought exercise

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:50 pm**

Fair point, I'd say $1.2m would be close to the mark for those 5 players so my mentioning of Scott's increase is redundant.

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 9:57 pm**

Wiki Special wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 9:50 pm Fair point, I'd say $1.2m would be close to the mark for those 5 players so my mentioning of Scott's increase is redundant.

i edited my post so may alter your response

Posted: **April 6, 2021, 10:01 pm**

Last season CNK scored seven and assisted three.

Dufty scored 13 and assisted 12.

Do we reckon CNK saved 15 more tries than him? I don't have access to any figures that would detail as such. I don't think fullbacks in general go down as making many genuine try saves per game, though fans tend to attribute a lot to them.

Rudimentary, black and white way of looking at it, but it paints a decent picture to me - baring in mind too that our side last year was far superior to the Dragons.

Posted: **April 7, 2021, 6:10 pm**

Botman wrote:

The next move to get to 1mil if that's what you think you'd need to get the unicorn fullback is tougher. It probably involves someone retiring a little early like a Croker or Hodgson or Whitehead... maybe it is moving Sutton and replacing him with the next Dunamis Lui? It would again hurt our team, but what impact would that unicorn fullback then have on the team? That's the question

The idea that it's simply not possible without destroying the team is not true. The question is for me simply this:
Is there a player good enough and obtainable that improves the premiership chances enough to make those moves?

If you told me we have to make those 5 moves and let Sutton go for Pap or Teddy... I'd do it 100/100 times. Do i think that player actually exists in the market? Probably not.

Woah, Nickman and I are only trying to remove Sutton from the starting 17... Botman is trying to dream up scenarios where he can have Sutton removed from the squad altogether!!

Posted: **April 7, 2021, 6:51 pm**

My hatred for Sutton is deep rooted and long standing.

Posted: **April 7, 2021, 8:27 pm**

Anyone remember when most of our salary cap was tied up in the players on a big billboard out at Bruce.. And all of them where out injured..

I would worry with the number of injuries we are seeing in the game atm that a strategy of too much money in a few players isn't a good one.

I'm not really arguing with some of the logic on the posts above but that would be my concern.

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Posted: **April 7, 2021, 8:54 pm**

Absolutely fair concern. If you make a bold move and tie up a bunch of money in stars and sacrifice depth, one of the risks is those stars get hurt at the wrong time and you're completely ****
Interesting comment about the speed of the game and injury rate... early days yet, potentially a major factor. But yes, when all your eggs are in one or two baskets, it can go badly on any play.

Posted: **April 7, 2021, 9:21 pm**

Look at manly atm big name fullback out plus a lot of other injuries...and a big name half struggling. Our squad depth copes better with that scenario atm.

It is early days injury wise with the rule changes but it could be even more than previous years that the squad with enough fit players left towards the end of the season is in with a good chance of taking out the gf

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Posted: **April 7, 2021, 9:36 pm**

It’s a fair point.

No way we make it a game from the GF last year if we didn’t have the depth of Starling, Lui, Havilli and Sia to cover all those middle forward injuries to Hodgson, Hors, Guler and Sutton.

Manly are a sad example of a thin roster when injuries strike.

Posted: **April 7, 2021, 11:02 pm**

BJ wrote:It’s a fair point.

No way we make it a game from the GF last year if we didn’t have the depth of Starling, Lui, Havilli and Sia to cover all those middle forward injuries to Hodgson, Hors, Guler and Sutton.

Manly are a sad example of a thin roster when injuries strike.

Sia was one of the casualties last season. Only made it back in the rookie Raiders game. Sutton was fairly healthy all season from memory until just before finals.

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Posted: **April 8, 2021, 11:10 am**

Botman wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 7:32 pm
BJ wrote: ↑April 6, 2021, 7:29 pm While we’re at it. Let’s trade CNK for Dugan and Papa for Aaron Woods.
While we're at it, i wouldnt trade CNK for Tedesco, prime Mal Meninga and a duffle bag of A-grade coke!

Ahhh sorry about that BJ, everyone just sortof went quiet there all of a sudden.

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 11:32 am**

Danaman137 wrote:
BJ wrote:It’s a fair point.

No way we make it a game from the GF last year if we didn’t have the depth of Starling, Lui, Havilli and Sia to cover all those middle forward injuries to Hodgson, Hors, Guler and Sutton.

Manly are a sad example of a thin roster when injuries strike.
Sia was one of the casualties last season. Only made it back in the rookie Raiders game. Sutton was fairly healthy all season from memory until just before finals.

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Yes sorry. Wrong way round.

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 11:35 am**

BJ wrote: ↑April 8, 2021, 11:32 am
Danaman137 wrote:
BJ wrote:It’s a fair point.

No way we make it a game from the GF last year if we didn’t have the depth of Starling, Lui, Havilli and Sia to cover all those middle forward injuries to Hodgson, Hors, Guler and Sutton.

Manly are a sad example of a thin roster when injuries strike.
Sia was one of the casualties last season. Only made it back in the rookie Raiders game. Sutton was fairly healthy all season from memory until just before finals.

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Yes sorry. Wrong way round.

Classic BJ with his typical Sutton hate, trying to leave him out of games he actually played in!

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 12:43 pm**

The Nickman wrote:
BJ wrote: ↑April 8, 2021, 11:32 am
Danaman137 wrote:
BJ wrote:It’s a fair point.

No way we make it a game from the GF last year if we didn’t have the depth of Starling, Lui, Havilli and Sia to cover all those middle forward injuries to Hodgson, Hors, Guler and Sutton.

Manly are a sad example of a thin roster when injuries strike.
Sia was one of the casualties last season. Only made it back in the rookie Raiders game. Sutton was fairly healthy all season from memory until just before finals.

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Yes sorry. Wrong way round.
Classic BJ with his typical Sutton hate, trying to leave him out of games he actually played in!

I can’t argue with that one. Next I’ll be claiming that Craig Frawley was a better centre for the Raiders than Meninga (who kept missing games with broken arms).

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 3:52 pm**

BJ wrote: ↑April 8, 2021, 12:43 pm
The Nickman wrote:
BJ wrote: ↑April 8, 2021, 11:32 am
Danaman137 wrote:
BJ wrote:It’s a fair point.

No way we make it a game from the GF last year if we didn’t have the depth of Starling, Lui, Havilli and Sia to cover all those middle forward injuries to Hodgson, Hors, Guler and Sutton.

Manly are a sad example of a thin roster when injuries strike.
Sia was one of the casualties last season. Only made it back in the rookie Raiders game. Sutton was fairly healthy all season from memory until just before finals.

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Yes sorry. Wrong way round.
Classic BJ with his typical Sutton hate, trying to leave him out of games he actually played in!
I can’t argue with that one. Next I’ll be claiming that Craig Frawley was a better centre for the Raiders than Meninga (who kept missing games with broken arms).

Haha, indeed. I'd love to see the debate on here in 1988-89 after he broke his arm for the fourth time.

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 5:10 pm**

Manly prop Martin Taupau battling to get a bite on the open market

Martin Taupau’s bid to cash in by testing himself on the open market has backfired with clubs baulking at his $800,000-a-year asking price.

The Raiders are the latest club to have knocked back an approach from the Sea Eagles enforcer, who was given permission to field offers from rival clubs earlier this year.

Read more: https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport ... 65d1da4832

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 5:15 pm**

Can you imagine a bloke like Taupau genuinely approaching us a few years ago?

The price tag is ridiculous for a front rower of his stature. Of all the clubs to approach, you wouldn't have thought Canberra was a genuine option.

Good luck with your search Marty.

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 5:37 pm**

Can you imagine us knocking back a bloke like Taupau a few years ago? At least the Taupau of a few years ago.

Posted: **April 8, 2021, 5:43 pm**

Taupau: Are you guys interested, only 800k a season
Raiders: hahahahahahahahahaha. No.

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Posted: **April 8, 2021, 6:08 pm**

I know it’s to much asking price but could you imagine papa and Marty running at you

The Greenhouse

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