POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

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Who should be the bench utility for 2021?

Tom Starling
13
46%
Siliva Havili
10
36%
Ryan James
1
4%
Harry Rushton
0
No votes
Sia Soliola
1
4%
Ryan Sutton
0
No votes
Adam Cook
0
No votes
Caleb Aekins
0
No votes
Curtis Scott
0
No votes
Harley Smith-Shields
3
11%
Matt Frawley
0
No votes
Sam Williams
0
No votes
Semi Valemei
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 28

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greeneyed
Don Furner
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POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by greeneyed »

POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

What's your strongest possible 2021 Canberra Raiders line up? That's what we are asking the readers of The Greenhouse. We have looked at the "Locks and contenders" for each position in the team in a special series of articles. Some players are clear "locks" on their positions, but for contentious positions, we've run a series of polls.

We now have 16 players named in the strongest 2021 Canberra Raiders team, according to the majority of the readers of the site.

In the last of our polls, we're asking: Who should take the bench utility role? While this spot would normally be filled by a hooker or a fourth forward, given the increasing trend to select a back as a utility, I have included all top 30 players who have not been selected so far. They are grouped in this order in the poll: hookers, forwards, backs. If you wish to voted for development players, list them in the thread.

Remember, we're looking at the strongest possible team, irrespective of injuries.

You have ONE vote in this poll and you may change your vote.
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Botman
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by Botman »

Came down to Tom Starling or Siliva Havili
I think this is a little game plan and situation dependent...

For example, if the general plan is to grind the opposition through the middle and play a low tempo game or we're worried about our middle forwards in the game, i would be inclined to go with Havili. He can play hooker and impact the game, or come on as a running forward and help there if we're happy with the state of the game and how Hodgson is working.

Starling is the play if you've got genuine concerns about Hodgson's ability to play 80 minutes and/or you want to play with tempo and attack the opposition.

I don't foresee a situation where we'd be concerned about middle forwards, as discussed at length this off season, we're going to have 3-4 really good middle forwards playing reserve grade this year. And Hodgson is getting older and coming off a major injury. For that reason i went Starling
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GO;
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afgtnk
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by afgtnk »

Went with Smith-Shields.

Can't get away with no outside back cover on the bench anymore. HSS seems to be a safe choice to cover all positions in the backline, seemingly with the ability to slot it reliably at a moment's notice.
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simo
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by simo »

I went with ryan james.
Great posts above and both cover off the different tactics that can be employed here. I just picked the best remaining forward to keep the forwards rotation fresh. With young and chn in the side i think we can cover an injury to the outside backs and i never want hodgson off the park. Happy for ricky to pick and chose between all number 14 options based on workload and opponent though
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Botman
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by Botman »

I agree that the team has the requisite versatility to cover an injury in the back in game.... It of course wont be as good as having a back on the bench but i dont know the risk of that warrants a bench spot... but as discussed before on this, i dont know it doesnt either. I'd be curious to see some data on outside backs and how often they end up concussions protocol/ruled out
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WHERE UserName = 'Aknalkfgnaa' OR 'Yeah Raiders' OR 'Billy B'
EXEC RAND(good_grief; cheak_notes; uh82cit;)

GO;
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afgtnk
Bradley Clyde
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by afgtnk »

Don't have any numbers on the concussion totals, but my memory tells me that it happens far too often and easily for a spare back to be unavailable.

For me it all comes down to risk mitigation. Having a back ruled out mid-game can potentially derail the game plan and have a serious effect on the result of a match. You don't need three forwards on the bench in this day and age, IMO. It's overkill. Your two edge players now play 80 straight. Papa and Tapine are capable of 60 consistently - you want them on the field as much as possible, so giving guys like that only 40 mins for the sake of rotation is a waste and not in the best interest of the side. Our remaining middle forwards can comfortably bust out 40-50 minutes weekly (including Havili), whether starting or from the bench.

Doing a quick calculation with a bunch of assumptions:

Total minutes played per game by middle forwards - 240 minutes
Minus Papa and Tapine regular stint - 120 minutes
Minus third starting middle forward - 75 minutes
Remaining split if two extra middle forwards: 37.5 minutes
Remaining split if three extra middle forwards: 25 minutes

Splitting 75 minutes between three players is a massive waste of a spot IMO. Things have changed, time moves on - we need to play it smart and get an edge from somewhere. This is somewhere that it can come from and ensure we've got a wider bunch of unexpected scenarios covered. You could do two, but then that leaves you exposed if a forward gets injured mid-game.

Two and a half for me is the perfect number - a utility forward who can play multiple positions, which includes the middle where they can pick up someone's left over minutes (Havili), and two other middles, one of which can comfortably slot into the edge if need be (Young).
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simo
Ricky Stuart
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by simo »

afgtnk wrote: January 25, 2021, 3:31 pm Don't have any numbers on the concussion totals, but my memory tells me that it happens far too often and easily for a spare back to be unavailable.

For me it all comes down to risk mitigation. Having a back ruled out mid-game can potentially derail the game plan and have a serious effect on the result of a match. You don't need three forwards on the bench in this day and age, IMO. It's overkill. Your two edge players now play 80 straight. Papa and Tapine are capable of 60 consistently - you want them on the field as much as possible, so giving guys like that only 40 mins for the sake of rotation is a waste and not in the best interest of the side. Our remaining middle forwards can comfortably bust out 40-50 minutes weekly (including Havili), whether starting or from the bench.

Doing a quick calculation with a bunch of assumptions:

Total minutes played per game by middle forwards - 240 minutes
Minus Papa and Tapine regular stint - 120 minutes
Minus third starting middle forward - 75 minutes
Remaining split if two extra middle forwards: 37.5 minutes
Remaining split if three extra middle forwards: 25 minutes

Splitting 75 minutes between three players is a massive waste of a spot IMO. Things have changed, time moves on - we need to play it smart and get an edge from somewhere. This is somewhere that it can come from and ensure we've got a wider bunch of unexpected scenarios covered. You could do two, but then that leaves you exposed if a forward gets injured mid-game.

Two and a half for me is the perfect number - a utility forward who can play multiple positions, which includes the middle where they can pick up someone's left over minutes (Havili), and two other middles, one of which can comfortably slot into the edge if need be (Young).
Come end of year I definitely agree about papa and tapa playing extended minutes and having coverage for outside backs instead of an extra forward in the rotation. Early on however, before match fitness is there and when a concussion could rule a middle out for the game i think the extra forward is just as feasable
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Matt
Don Furner
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by Matt »

I like where Botman and Afgtnk are coming from.

IMO, Hodgo will be "nursed", or at least covered for the early part of the season. The question is, do you go for versatility, Havili, allowing Hodgo to make the mins call, OR, do you plan the change/impact role, and play Starling. Given Ricky's previous set ups, and Hodgos previous recoveries, I suspect he will give Hodgo every chance to go 80, thus Havili.

Its also worth remembering that Starling has been seen as the 2nd hooker in the squad for a couple of seasons, but that Havilis versatility gets him the utility role. This was mentioned a lot by Ricky and the coaching staff last yr.

After a period of time, say 4-6 weeks, I believe that the utility will be a back. This is something Ricky has used a lot in recent yrs.

As for the rest of the bench, its about having at least 2 more middles, and edge, ideally who is versatility too - Young, perfect.

We are actually very lucky with our pack, there is tonnes of versatility:
Havili - hooker/middle

Papa - middle, but played plenty of edge

Tapine - middle now, but edge as a younger man, did play edge early last yr yr too

Young - another edge coverted to middle

CHN - has played all 3 backrow spots, incl at least 2 at international level, we have run him at prop, and was a CTR is juniors

Whitey - edge, lock, half, centre, what cant this man do?!?

Sia - admitted as a younger man, edge and centre (ok... ok... much younger)

James - middle, but played edge early in his career

Lui and Horse - can play edge at a pinch, though neither prefer it.

We are in a great spot.
julian87
Laurie Daley
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by julian87 »

You definitely don’t need 4 running forwards on the bench. But you definitely do need 3 imo.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Seiffert82
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by Seiffert82 »

Our biggest weakness in the pack is our second row depth IMO.

Young provides versatility, but beyond that we are very inexperienced now that Tapine and Soliola are really specialist middles. These days I'd almost prefer Rapana to play an edge compared with Sia, Taps or Hors.

Blooding more talent would be a good thing though. Whitehead won't be around forever.
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Seiffert82
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by Seiffert82 »

Anyway, if we have two middles and Young on the bench I don't see any value for Havili being there too.

In that event I'd go with Starling. He provides much more impact of you're chasing points or exploiting a tired opposition.

If Stuart wants to include an outside back on the bench, I'd probably prefer Havili for his versatility over Starling, plus Young and one of the middles. However, that's not the direction the GH preferred team has gone.
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greeneyed
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by greeneyed »

This poll will close tomorrow. Last chance to vote.
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-TW-
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by -TW- »

As much as I love starling, it will be Havili

Can play 9-13, and we can cover a back/half injury with Whitehead

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BadnMean
Jason Croker
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by BadnMean »

-TW- wrote: January 31, 2021, 5:17 pm As much as I love starling, it will be Havili

Can play 9-13, and we can cover a back/half injury with Whitehead

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I'd cover a half with Whitehead and a back with Young or CHN these days but theory is the same.

You might be right. I just think Starling is perfectly made for the modern game. Unbelievable how many good options we have now.
EJ
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by EJ »

Idk the way Starling played in the finals in particular demands first crack imo

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Botman
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by Botman »

-TW- wrote: January 31, 2021, 5:17 pm As much as I love starling, it will be Havili

Can play 9-13, and we can cover a back/half injury with Whitehead

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I think you're probably right in that if i had to guess, i think Stuart will go with Havili
But Starling is the best choice imo
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
SELECT * FROM Previous_Post
EXEC quote_post
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GO;
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BJ
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by BJ »

Without Cotric and Bateman we further lack game breakers. Starling offers us a point of difference off the bench. Has to be Starling IMO.
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greeneyed
Don Furner
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Bench utility

Post by greeneyed »

Poll declared, with Tom Starling the winner. All the results here: viewtopic.php?p=1775462#p1775462
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