POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

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Who should start in the second row alongside Elliott Whitehead?

Corey Harawira-Naera
20
69%
Harry Rushton
2
7%
Hudson Young
7
24%
 
Total votes: 29

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greeneyed
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POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

What's your strongest possible 2021 Canberra Raiders line up? That's what we are asking the readers of The Greenhouse. We're looking at the "Locks and contenders" for each position in the team in a special series of articles. Some players have clearly locked down their spot but we're looking at all the contenders for places in the Green Machine's top 17. For contentious positions, we're supplementing the discussion with a series of polls... and in the fourth of those polls, we're asking: Who should join Elliott Whitehead as a starting second rower in 2021?

We're taking "Smelly" to be a "lock" on the No. 12 jersey. We will also be locking in Joe Tapine at No. 13... but he certainly can play on the edge. So if you want to vote for him - or any other player - here, just list him in the thread.

Remember, we're looking at the strongest possible team, irrespective of injuries.

Click here to read more: Locks and contenders: Second rowers

You have ONE vote in this poll and you may change your vote.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Matt »

Your backrowers need to be a source of pts in the modern game. CHN is about as close to Kikau or David Fifita as we have, so its a no brainer for mine.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by BadnMean »

Yeah i'd prefer CHN to get the gig. As you said, attacking 2nd rower. Strong hole runner and offloader to give George something to work with.

Young seems best suited to lock so imo it's best use of troops if we can get CHN working on that edge and Young doing his stints in the middle.

We can't really assess Harry as he's barely played a senior game in his career yet, let alone any football in Oz.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Northern Raider »

BadnMean wrote: January 13, 2021, 2:28 pm Yeah i'd prefer CHN to get the gig. As you said, attacking 2nd rower. Strong hole runner and offloader to give George something to work with.

Young seems best suited to lock so imo it's best use of troops if we can get CHN working on that edge and Young doing his stints in the middle.

We can't really assess Harry as he's barely played a senior game in his career yet, let alone any football in Oz.
I concur. It's CHN's job to lose right now.

We've also had a good look at Young through 2020. In regards to both production and impact his work in the middle is light years ahead of when he's played 2nd row. To me he looked a little tentative on the edge. Uncertain in his role and playing like he didn't want to mess up rather than taking the game on. When he plays middle he just rips in.

One thing this list does show is our lack of depth in the position.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by BJ »

We seriously need some strike in our right back row. CHN is the most likely for this in my opinion. We are going to miss Batemans creativity on the right.

I really like what Hudson Young brings off the bench through the middle. So I have him as a middle. But I want Hudson Young working hard on developing his edge play as he will be called on at some point.

Same goes for Horsburgh (who may not be suited to edge role due to lisfranc injury).

Lui, James, Sutton and Guler aren’t suited to an edge, so we have limited options.

If we had an unexpected injury mid game, I’d rather move Papalli to the edge, or possibly Tapine.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

The issue for CHN, as mentioned in the accompanying story, is his defence.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Northern Raider »

greeneyed wrote: January 13, 2021, 3:21 pm The issue for CHN, as mentioned in the accompanying story, is his defence.
Yes, that's definitely an area he needs to work on. Most of his issues for us were positioning and decision making. Those areas can be improved as he becomes more settled in his role. Coaches will also get the opportunity to sort out any deficiencies. We'll have a better idea how he's progressed as we get deeper into the season.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by BJ »

greeneyed wrote:The issue for CHN, as mentioned in the accompanying story, is his defence.
That is certainly something that concerns me.

Hopefully it’s an area he can improve on.

It’s certainly an area that Tapine improved on. I do think our coaching team and senior players like Sia and Lui are good at passing in defence tips.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Matt »

BJ wrote: January 13, 2021, 3:15 pm We seriously need some strike in our right back row. CHN is the most likely for this in my opinion. We are going to miss Batemans creativity on the right.

I really like what Hudson Young brings off the bench through the middle. So I have him as a middle. But I want Hudson Young working hard on developing his edge play as he will be called on at some point.

Same goes for Horsburgh (who may not be suited to edge role due to lisfranc injury).

Lui, James, Sutton and Guler aren’t suited to an edge, so we have limited options.

If we had an unexpected injury mid game, I’d rather move Papalli to the edge, or possibly Tapine.
Horse isnt an edge player. The man himself told me he doesn't like it. He is a middle.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

It's going to be CHN and Whitehead, as well it should be
I can already see the lynch mobs gathering for CHN because he is going to occasionally make a very bad read in defence and concede a try and we dont like newbies who arent lock down defenders.

I'd like to think our coaching and structure will limit these situations but it's going to happen... it happened last year with Whitehead too by the way, he had double digit try causes on his resume, but no one cared because he has so much built up love and equity... but he's not a lock down defender. These are edge players, they are consistently and constantly attacked in creative ways. Even the best in the game, guys who play state and international footy like Kikau, Frizzel, Cordner, aforementioned Whitehead, Kafusi, Crighton... they all have their moments
CHN is going to be very much the same

If he plays to his potential, CHN is going to be a ball running, hole hitting offensive weapon who is going to occasionally look bad on the other side of the footy. If used effectively and if he plays to his potential, his offensive output and what he gives us should more than off set the misreads defensively.

But that's who he is and we'd all best comes to terms with that... or we can just wait and see it happen and then get our pitch forks out... i think i know which way the GH is going to go with on that decision!
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: January 15, 2021, 9:10 am It's going to be CHN and Whitehead, as well it should be
I can already see the lynch mobs gathering for CHN because he is going to occasionally make a very bad read in defence and concede a try and we dont like newbies who arent lock down defenders.

I'd like to think our coaching and structure will limit these situations but it's going to happen... it happened last year with Whitehead too by the way, he had double digit try causes on his resume, but no one cared because he has so much built up love and equity... but he's not a lock down defender. These are edge players, they are consistently and constantly attacked in creative ways. Even the best in the game, guys who play state and international footy like Kikau, Frizzel, Cordner, aforementioned Whitehead, Kafusi, Crighton... they all have their moments
CHN is going to be very much the same

If he plays to his potential, CHN is going to be a ball running, hole hitting offensive weapon who is going to occasionally look bad on the other side of the footy. If used effectively and if he plays to his potential, his offensive output and what he gives us should more than off set the misreads defensively.

But that's who he is and we'd all best comes to terms with that... or we can just wait and see it happen and then get our pitch forks out... i think i know which way the GH is going to go with on that decision!
Exactly. We as fans always over scrutinise our own players. Particularly on the defensive side because whenever the other team scores we look for failings of our guys to find someone to blame.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Matt »

Botman wrote: January 15, 2021, 9:10 am It's going to be CHN and Whitehead, as well it should be
I can already see the lynch mobs gathering for CHN because he is going to occasionally make a very bad read in defence and concede a try and we dont like newbies who arent lock down defenders.

I'd like to think our coaching and structure will limit these situations but it's going to happen... it happened last year with Whitehead too by the way, he had double digit try causes on his resume, but no one cared because he has so much built up love and equity... but he's not a lock down defender. These are edge players, they are consistently and constantly attacked in creative ways. Even the best in the game, guys who play state and international footy like Kikau, Frizzel, Cordner, aforementioned Whitehead, Kafusi, Crighton... they all have their moments
CHN is going to be very much the same

If he plays to his potential, CHN is going to be a ball running, hole hitting offensive weapon who is going to occasionally look bad on the other side of the footy. If used effectively and if he plays to his potential, his offensive output and what he gives us should more than off set the misreads defensively.

But that's who he is and we'd all best comes to terms with that... or we can just wait and see it happen and then get our pitch forks out... i think i know which way the GH is going to go with on that decision!
:evil: :| :rant :!:

Sounds about right, hey botman :lol:
Well said BTW
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by BadnMean »

Botman wrote: January 15, 2021, 9:10 am It's going to be CHN and Whitehead, as well it should be
I can already see the lynch mobs gathering for CHN because he is going to occasionally make a very bad read in defence and concede a try and we dont like newbies who arent lock down defenders.

I'd like to think our coaching and structure will limit these situations but it's going to happen... it happened last year with Whitehead too by the way, he had double digit try causes on his resume, but no one cared because he has so much built up love and equity... but he's not a lock down defender. These are edge players, they are consistently and constantly attacked in creative ways. Even the best in the game, guys who play state and international footy like Kikau, Frizzel, Cordner, aforementioned Whitehead, Kafusi, Crighton... they all have their moments
CHN is going to be very much the same

If he plays to his potential, CHN is going to be a ball running, hole hitting offensive weapon who is going to occasionally look bad on the other side of the footy. If used effectively and if he plays to his potential, his offensive output and what he gives us should more than off set the misreads defensively.

But that's who he is and we'd all best comes to terms with that... or we can just wait and see it happen and then get our pitch forks out... i think i know which way the GH is going to go with on that decision!
Yes and no.

I don't remember lynch mobs forming for backrowers recently (say the last 4-5 years)... We had Papa, Tapine there + then Whitehead. A bit of Sia. All pretty well received. Even Tarps when he was settling in never got really OTT criticism.

We over-scrutinise, but there is a pretty statistical and example based dissection that goes on eventually. Crokes was looked at as a poor defender in a couple of ordinary sides early on in his career. But he was poor and then he improved. There's no ignoring the baths he used to get from Hurrel- that's what kept him out of rep sides. But he put all that away the last few years and the fan base saw that.

Last guy I really remember knives out for defensively was Austin or maybe FPN (I am sure other examples can be put forth). Even FPN we kept waiting for another Tigers game to emerge... it didn't.

Back 5 cop some heat on here, that's for sure. Second rowers not so much. But if CNK falls on his **** to catch a ball or a winger makes an error, yeah they'll cop it. I reckon we judge forwards a but fairer than backs though.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

BadnMean wrote: January 15, 2021, 7:33 pm Crokes was looked at as a poor defender in a couple of ordinary sides early on in his career. But he was poor and then he improved. There's no ignoring the baths he used to get from Hurrel- that's what kept him out of rep sides. But he put all that away the last few years and the fan base saw that.
You new here? Cause you must be new here. No one has ever for a single moment put that away
He's been absolutely belted from pillar to post, mostly unreasonably (though certainly reasonably on some occasions) so...It is the root cause of my post here. As a fan base it is important to recognise and understand who a player is and give reasonable expectations

A reasonable expectation of CHN... an impactful hole runner, offloader and general offensive player who will sometimes frustrate us defensively

An unreasonable expectation of CHN... an impactful hole runner, offloader and general offensive player who is also a shut down edge defender ala Campese prior to knee explosion.

One of these things is potentially a very, VERY good backrower who can contribute to our team positively week and week out.
The other is the best back rower in the world. CHN is not that.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by gangrenous »

Pigman is right.

I suggest to help the GH kick the habit this season that we replace a negative comment about CHN with a new habit. I suggest a negative post about pigman or gangrenous instead.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

I’d endorse the former, but not the latter
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by gangrenous »

Nah, it’s alright man. I’m on board.

Tell me how bad my tackling technique is GH!
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Seiffert82 »

Can the poll be updated to include gangrenous?

In the absence of that option, CHN gets the gig.

50% of his job is defence though, so I'm sure the coaching staff will be working overtime to get that part of his game in order.

I love his attitude and enthusiasm though. Goes a long way for me. The guy can be an absolute weapon with the ball. I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes. Bateman was pretty ordinary last year, so the bar hasn't been set particularly high for us to improve IMO.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by BadnMean »

Botman wrote: January 15, 2021, 7:49 pm
BadnMean wrote: January 15, 2021, 7:33 pm Crokes was looked at as a poor defender in a couple of ordinary sides early on in his career. But he was poor and then he improved. There's no ignoring the baths he used to get from Hurrel- that's what kept him out of rep sides. But he put all that away the last few years and the fan base saw that.
You new here? Cause you must be new here. No one has ever for a single moment put that away
He's been absolutely belted from pillar to post, mostly unreasonably (though certainly reasonably on some occasions) so...It is the root cause of my post here. As a fan base it is important to recognise and understand who a player is and give reasonable expectations

A reasonable expectation of CHN... an impactful hole runner, offloader and general offensive player who will sometimes frustrate us defensively

An unreasonable expectation of CHN... an impactful hole runner, offloader and general offensive player who is also a shut down edge defender ala Campese prior to knee explosion.

One of these things is potentially a very, VERY good backrower who can contribute to our team positively week and week out.
The other is the best back rower in the world. CHN is not that.
I just don't see backrowers getting torn to shreds for defending in a tough position on here. Most posters seem to get it.

Mind you we haven't had much to complain about in that department- Papalli, Tapine, Whitehead, Bateman, a bit of Young. Pretty good run really.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by simo »

Usually the posters bagging out defence put it all on centres.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by BadnMean »

simo wrote: January 16, 2021, 11:54 am Usually the posters bagging out defence put it all on centres.
As is right and proper and part of a grand tradition.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by gangrenous »

BadnMean wrote: I just don't see backrowers getting torn to shreds for defending in a tough position on here. Most posters seem to get it.

Mind you we haven't had much to complain about in that department- Papalli, Tapine, Whitehead, Bateman, a bit of Young. Pretty good run really.
Bronson Harrison is the last second rower I recall pleading be dropped.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Matt »

gangrenous wrote: January 16, 2021, 12:26 pm
BadnMean wrote: I just don't see backrowers getting torn to shreds for defending in a tough position on here. Most posters seem to get it.

Mind you we haven't had much to complain about in that department- Papalli, Tapine, Whitehead, Bateman, a bit of Young. Pretty good run really.
Bronson Harrison is the last second rower I recall pleading be dropped.
Not Joey Picker?
Can I assume that we are talking edge guys, and thus Fenno is being left off the list?
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by gangrenous »

Matt wrote:
gangrenous wrote: January 16, 2021, 12:26 pm
BadnMean wrote: I just don't see backrowers getting torn to shreds for defending in a tough position on here. Most posters seem to get it.

Mind you we haven't had much to complain about in that department- Papalli, Tapine, Whitehead, Bateman, a bit of Young. Pretty good run really.
Bronson Harrison is the last second rower I recall pleading be dropped.
Not Joey Picker?
Can I assume that we are talking edge guys, and thus Fenno is being left off the list?
Nah, I didn’t mind Picker. Didn’t want to marry him like piggles, but wasn’t fussed either way.

Harrison, I wasn’t a fan.

Yeah not including Fenno as a second rower.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

All the polls for starting team positions will close at 11:59pm AEDT tonight (Monday). Last chance to vote!
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

BadnMean wrote: January 16, 2021, 8:59 am I just don't see backrowers getting torn to shreds for defending in a tough position on here. Most posters seem to get it.

Mind you we haven't had much to complain about in that department- Papalli, Tapine, Whitehead, Bateman, a bit of Young. Pretty good run really.
I agree it is not the usually MO of the GH. But i've already seen the narrative begin to take hold... the mob is beginning to circle him... if he's not a total beast in attack, and has 2020 EW defensive numbers, he's going to be killed on this website :lol:
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by afgtnk »

simo wrote: January 16, 2021, 11:54 am Usually the posters bagging out defence put it all on centres.
Sam Williams*

Even if he isn't playing
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by julian87 »

CHN left second row with Whitehead reverting to the right.

The best ball player in the team gains the best line runner in the team. The limited ball playing halfback gains a genuine ball playing forward on the right side of the field to assist. Whitehead is also switched on as a short kick chaser so you have an in field target for Williams grabbers on either side of the field as well.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

I’d like to see George Williams with a guy like CHN outside him for a little bit first
I think williams has shown he is potentially a very good ball player, and having that sort of player outside him and some stability too would help unlock it

But i think beyond the things you’ve mentioned, pairing Wighton with chn and Williams with whitey has a lot merit to it too
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Sid »

CHN’s preparation was disrupted leading in to joining Raiders, hopefully he benefits from a full pre-season
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by Seiffert82 »

Moving Whitehead to the right certainly has some merit defensively, especially if Scott is playing centre and Williams is stuck between the two.

In saying that, I really want to see CHN running off Williams. Wighton is a strong runner on the left already, so his game complements Whitehead. If anything, Wighton needs a big bodied centre outside him to take some of the heat out of the defensive attention he gets with the ball.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

Corey Harawira-Naera takes out this poll.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by julian87 »

Do he should. Stuart didn’t take the risk of signing him for him to be used as a battering ram bench forward. He played that role last year for a multitude of reasons that all made sense.

This season he will be back to 100% fitness and straight in to replace Bateman as he was signed to do.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by simo »

Seiffert82 wrote: January 18, 2021, 9:20 pm Moving Whitehead to the right certainly has some merit defensively, especially if Scott is playing centre and Williams is stuck between the two.

In saying that, I really want to see CHN running off Williams. Wighton is a strong runner on the left already, so his game complements Whitehead. If anything, Wighton needs a big bodied centre outside him to take some of the heat out of the defensive attention he gets with the ball.
It is interesting to imagine what a bigger bodied, line running centre would do on the wighton edge. If crokers not fit rd 1 and timoko gets a shot it will be nice to scratch that itch at least but the preference has to be croker back and playing confidently. Could croker play on the right where an offloading chn might suit his skillful play more?
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2020 line up: Second rowers

Post by BadnMean »

In 2019 CHN made 59 offloads and 7 linebreaks in a godawful Doggies team. That's double Papallis offloads and triple Whiteheads. Even if Sticky tells him to pull the offloads back a bit, he's still a legit weapon out there for George, Rapana, Timoko, CNK or whoever to work off. A genuine point of difference/spark.

The 7 linebreaks was a middling break year for CHN but the same as Whitehead made in 2020 in the linebreakingest year of his life (good enough to lead the NRL positionally for most of the year)...

CHN should be the 2nd rower. He's a legit gun, one of the better backrowers in the comp at his best and no physical reason he shouldn't be in his peak years. Young is a maybe pretty good backrower (and probably a very good lock/bench middle). My doggies fan mates were spewing they lost CHN.
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