2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

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afgtnk
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by afgtnk »

Hudson Young in 2020:

Playing edge

6 games
Total playing time: 489.96 minutes
Average playing time: 81.66 minutes
Average metres made (total): 73.16
Average post contact metres: 28.33
Average tackle breaks: 1.16
Linebreaks: 0
Tries: 0

Playing middle

11 games
Total playing time: 518.98 minutes
Average playing time: 47.18 minutes
Average metres made (total): 109.45
Average post contact metres: 38.63
Average tackle breaks: 2
Linebreaks: 5
Tries: 4

Sorry fellas, but this is about an open and shut case as you can get - you can't be throwing up those numbers as an edge, unless you come with a creative side and a bunch of other intangibles like Elliott Whitehead. As a middle, excellent.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by julian87 »

I normally don’t like edge back row stats because so much work is done off the ball in attack and positionally in defense.

But that post really does underline what is being said in this thread.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Belcher#1 »

Yeo's development seemed to be constantly halted because he was knocked out every second game.
He's one of those mobile forwards just like Young, that really benefited from the faster play this year.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Matt »

Botman wrote: November 24, 2020, 7:39 pm Edge or middle, i still think Yeo low key is kind of average

I wouldnt trade any of our young middles for him straight up. None. He's a JAG in a very good team.
Guler, Hors, Young... Nope. Ill take my chances with those guys over Yeo.
I agree, but the point was, 2020's move to lock, from the edge, was massive for him, as was Young's
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Matt »

Belcher#1 wrote: November 24, 2020, 11:05 pm Yeo's development seemed to be constantly halted because he was knocked out every second game.
He's one of those mobile forwards just like Young, that really benefited from the faster play this year.
Yup. Faster game, means you need at least 1 middle to have fast footwork, leg speed and a high motor.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Matt »

afgtnk wrote: November 24, 2020, 8:13 pm Hudson Young in 2020:

Playing edge

6 games
Total playing time: 489.96 minutes
Average playing time: 81.66 minutes
Average metres made (total): 73.16
Average post contact metres: 28.33
Average tackle breaks: 1.16
Linebreaks: 0
Tries: 0

Playing middle

11 games
Total playing time: 518.98 minutes
Average playing time: 47.18 minutes
Average metres made (total): 109.45
Average post contact metres: 38.63
Average tackle breaks: 2
Linebreaks: 5
Tries: 4

Sorry fellas, but this is about an open and shut case as you can get - you can't be throwing up those numbers as an edge, unless you come with a creative side and a bunch of other intangibles like Elliott Whitehead. As a middle, excellent.
:clap:
Who said stats cant show the story?!?
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by BJ »

Q: Who said Stats don’t show the story?

A: Donald Trump discussing how well he was doing with Covid.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by greeneyed »

I’m not convinced by afgtnk’s numbers. I think if you look at Hudson’s numbers, game by game, there’s mostly an upward trend through the season. It’s partly to be expected, given he’d been on the sideline for quite a while.

However, if you look at his tackle breaks, they’re mostly consistently one or two... except for two outlier games, against the Bulldogs and Dragons. His running metres are higher in the second half of the season, but then so are his receipts. Interesting that playing in the second row in Round 20, he broke 100 running metres... when he was doing that regularly late in the year, regardless of which position he played.

His defensive workload was high early in the year when playing full games in the second row. Missed fewer when he went to the middle, except at the end of the season.

https://www.nrl.com/players/nrl-premier ... son-young/

In terms of my own ratings, which are a mix of individual game stats and eye test, I rated him an average 6.7/10 when he played in the second row, and 6.8/10 in the middle. Not a lot of difference.

Not a lot of difference in fantasy points (which is an amalgam of statistical indicators) either. 43.3 average in the second row, compared to an average of 44.7 for the year.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Botman »

Young may have broken 100 metres in that round 20 game but it was by far his worst game in months, he had quite a few bad errors/penalties that hurt the team. And from memory his best moments in that game happened when he came in off his edge, to get his hands dirty in the middle.

The key stat in akasjka's post is the LB's... the simple reality here is his athleticism and his late footwork at the line allows him to reliably and consistently beat middle defenders to create try scoring opportunities. When he plays wider and goes against better athletes, he doesnt have that impact. He's doesnt beat anyone out wide.

And look, he's still young, something could change and he can improve and get better and maybe he does end up as an impact player on the edge, but he's already that impact player as a middle now. It's unfathomable to me that anyone who watched him play would think it should an option that he starts the season in the back row... CHN was brought in the replace Bateman and he'll should get the nod. If Whitehead or CHN are hurt, then we've got some options to discuss, but CHN should be cemented in to that edge role, and Young cemented into a bench role that allows him to play where he's flourishing but give us injury cover in game.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Northern Raider »

Stats aside. The eye test tells me Young is a much better player in the middle. I can't recall him doing anything remarkable on the edge. Appears to be uncertain of his role and looks like he's making up numbers. In the middle he has a simplified task and he executes it well.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Seiffert82 »

greeneyed wrote: November 24, 2020, 4:25 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: November 24, 2020, 3:17 pm So we keep being told.

All I was saying was that out of our entire squad Young is the bloke I'd put on the edge if CHN struggles next year. Apparently that's the equivalent of me saying I am keen to drop CHN and rearrange the forward pack to play Young in the second row because I think that's his best position.

I'm very well aware that Hudson Young played very good football in the middle at the end of last season. I watched it with my own eyes. I was also VERY keen for the club to sign CHN as he is clearly a great runner on that edge.

However, I don't at all agree that Hudson Young was mediocre in the second row. I rate him as our best backup in that position should we have any issues with CHN or Whitehead. I'd much prefer him there than Tapine or Horsburgh or Havili or whatever other option we might have.
I agree. It’s not madness to suggest Hudson Young is a very reasonable challenger for the starting second row spot. He’s a better defender than CHN, while CHN is probably better in attack running wide, when in form. Personally, I think Young was better than CHN all round this year. Certainly better in defence and compared well in attack.

I do expect Ricky Stuart will give CHN first shot in the second row. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was promised that on recruitment. But I don’t expect Ricky will tolerate leaking a lot of points on the right for long either.
No. I suspect that between Scott and CHN that right hand side will be on notice quite a bit next season.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by afgtnk »

One of the biggest issues I see with Young on the edge is that he hasn't quite managed to grasp the art of running different lines, either when receiving the ball or running a decoy. It was the main contributor to his lack of attacking threat anytime he played there IMO, because he doesn't have anywhere near the power of a Kikau to trample his opposite number, and as Botman has alluded, doesn't quite have the athleticism to beat the opposition edge either.

It's an underrated and underappreciated skill with a myriad of nuances, having to make constant minor adjustments in reaction to what your attack is doing and what the opposition line is doing. Unless you come with individual game breaking ability like John Bateman, the effective edge player of the 2020s comes with this capability.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Botman »

Yep, 100% agree with Asajkaja there and to bring it back to CHN, what he does have on the edge that Young doesnt, is that ability to run the right line and whilst he's not Kikau level powerful (that list is probably reserved to Papalii, Tapine, Lolo, Haas, Tino level players), his strength is in that ball running mode where he's got the power to run through defenders and offload in space to create chances

That's why he's going to be playing the edge and Young isnt and what CHN gives us on the edge is a point of difference to watch Whitehead gives us
Whitehead is a very shrewd line runner to be sure and certain but he's primarily a footballer, who wins with lines, with ball playing and knowing where to be, he wont win match ups with a speed and power... CHN is going to have to win with that hard line, with speed and power. So ideally, you're getting a little yin and yang on the edges. Which is why julian's suggestion earlier about swapping is interesting to think about... what do you want in your half/edge combo?

We've got two very good ball runners in the halves, and i would say at this point, still some inconsistent ball playing. I think Williams is the better ball player and kicker, but Wighton is arguably one of the best 3-5 players in the world on his day, so who's game on the edges suits the halves better?

I think it's still Wighton/Whitehead, and giving that edge a little more ball playing because i think George Williams in year 2 is going to continue to grow and i think he's got more strings to his bow, and a hard line runner will suit him... But i wouldnt dismiss the idea of swapping them either, i think Wighton/CHN could be devastating in the red zone, because you cant cheat on them both as power runners, and George and Elliott on the same side is a creative wet dream..

But its a really interesting thing to think about for our team
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Seiffert82 »

Yep agree with that. That was my takehome position on CHN this year.

I rated him a 5/10 but I do think his line running game should complement Williams well, Williams can take on the line and get CHN to run hard off his hip. Bateman was much more adept at playing deeper and getting early ball from Sezer, which gave him the space to use his footwork. This year the Williams-Bateman combo looked all over the shop...Williams running right, passing to Bateman in traffic, who would stop and jink around trying to find a hole...players on the outside catching a cold doing nothing.

Hopefully CHN had a good offseason and gets his defence in order as I really do think it could be a good attacking combo.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by RedRaider »

CHN came to the Raiders underdone for fitness. It was always going to take some time to build that into a player in NRL FG. He is big, fast, strong and has good footwork. I think George will give him the ball at the time which suits him in attack in 2021. My issue is what he does when we don't have the ball. I know the 2020 side was constantly changing on the right which makes it more difficult to build the teamwork needed in the defensive line but there is a nagging doubt about his D which I hope Sticky can build on during the off season. Given the personal, team and code disruption in 2020 I think the 5/10 rating is fair.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Botman »

His defence is absolutely going to be the concern going forward. I think he's probably not had great coaching at the panthers prior to Cleary and the Dogs regarding how to play in defence.
I think he'll improve with us, but i also understand this is going to be a guy who is occasionally going to concede a try... JB and Whitehead do it too, its just they give us so much in other ways they get a pass. He's going to be a bit like Kikau in defence. When he hits them, theyr'e going to stay hit, but he's also going to have some mental lapses

Worth noting Elliott Whitehead has 10 TC's this year, which is equal second in the league behind Corey Oates. Kikau, Cordner, Harris... all elite backrowers, who leak tries over the course of a year. He'll in that zone defensively, and you hope he offset that the way Kikau, Whitehead and Harris do in attack.

But i think we as a fan base do need to come to terms with the fact this is not a defensive specialist, he's never going to be the sort of player on the edge who just locks it down on that side of the footy. If we can just accept that, and that like Whitehead he's going to have some moments, then i think we'll can avoid a lot of consternation
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Matt »

greeneyed wrote: November 25, 2020, 8:55 am I’m not convinced by afgtnk’s numbers. I think if you look at Hudson’s numbers, game by game, there’s mostly an upward trend through the season. It’s partly to be expected, given he’d been on the sideline for quite a while.

However, if you look at his tackle breaks, they’re mostly consistently one or two... except for two outlier games, against the Bulldogs and Dragons. His running metres are higher in the second half of the season, but then so are his receipts. Interesting that playing in the second row in Round 20, he broke 100 running metres... when he was doing that regularly late in the year, regardless of which position he played.

His defensive workload was high early in the year when playing full games in the second row. Missed fewer when he went to the middle, except at the end of the season.

https://www.nrl.com/players/nrl-premier ... son-young/

In terms of my own ratings, which are a mix of individual game stats and eye test, I rated him an average 6.7/10 when he played in the second row, and 6.8/10 in the middle. Not a lot of difference.

Not a lot of difference in fantasy points (which is an amalgam of statistical indicators) either. 43.3 average in the second row, compared to an average of 44.7 for the year.
Fantasy is a poor representation of ability GE. Esp when comparing middles to edge. Middles win out in fantasy 9 time out of 10. Fantasy for forwards is all about workrate. So all you have proven is, Young does as much work in 40-50mins in the middle as he was in 80mins on an edge.
Work doesnt equal ability, application, etc
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Matt »

BJ wrote: November 25, 2020, 8:46 am Q: Who said Stats don’t show the story?

A: Donald Trump discussing how well he was doing with Covid.
people complain about my arguments incl stats all the time
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by greeneyed »

Matt wrote: November 27, 2020, 10:12 am Fantasy is a poor representation of ability GE. Esp when comparing middles to edge. Middles win out in fantasy 9 time out of 10. Fantasy for forwards is all about workrate. So all you have proven is, Young does as much work in 40-50mins in the middle as he was in 80mins on an edge.
Work doesnt equal ability, application, etc
I understand the significant limitations of fantasy points. But it is the only aggregate statistical indicator that's publicly available. I was aiming to point out that afgtnk's selection of indicators also had limitations... and I think that point holds.
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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by BJ »

Matt wrote:
BJ wrote: November 25, 2020, 8:46 am Q: Who said Stats don’t show the story?

A: Donald Trump discussing how well he was doing with Covid.
people complain about my arguments incl stats all the time
Again. That’s what Trump said.


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Re: 2020 in review - Corey Harawira-Naera

Post by Matt »

BJ wrote: November 27, 2020, 10:59 am
Matt wrote:
BJ wrote: November 25, 2020, 8:46 am Q: Who said Stats don’t show the story?

A: Donald Trump discussing how well he was doing with Covid.
people complain about my arguments incl stats all the time
Again. That’s what Trump said.


ImageP.S. I’m just winding you up.
Let me go then.
im spinning... im spinning...
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