Jarrod Croker could get all clear for Round 1 after shoulder surgery

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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by -TW- »

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote: February 14, 2021, 10:21 am More so hard decisions for the coach methinks.
Pretty obvious Croker is firmly in the good books. The only hard decision I can see being made is Croker having his final couple of seasons as a Hazem type winger.
Stuart has shown he doesn't hold sentiment over performance.

If he did, Campo wouldn't have been given the **** the way he was

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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Ruben Daley »

Botman wrote: February 14, 2021, 3:09 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 14, 2021, 10:21 am More so hard decisions for the coach methinks.
Correct.
Stuart is certainly going to give Croker every chance and then some to prove he still has something to give. That will include the entirity of 2021. If we see more of his 2020 play, or worse... I dont for one second believe Stuart wont have the balls to make a tough call
This has been worrying me ever since he signed that deal. I'm a Croker fan but it was too long for a player of his age and condition.

There's no doubt he'll do the necessary rehab and come back as healthy as he can but he isn't a player who we can carry if he's another level slower or less agile, or if he continues to suffer injuries, any of which may well be the case.

And, as much a fan of him as I am, I've never got the impression he'll know when he's past it. Completely past it, sure. But beyond the point where he can maintain the contribution we need from him, I don't think so.

This, as Seiffert says, puts the pressure on Ricky to make a tough call. But it's different from the Campo decision because Ricky had no attachment to Campo and Campo only had one year remaining on his contract when he got the tap on the shoulder. Also, the club wasn't in a premiership window nor were there multiple exciting prospects ready to go in his position. The stakes are far higher now. Maybe that makes it easier for Ricky but I also think it'll mean Croker will want to hang on more and Ricky will be less inclined to cut him if there's a sniff of a premiership.

Four years is a really long time in football. Four seasons ago, we had Adam Clydesdale, Jeff Lima and Dave Taylor playing for us.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

Botman wrote: February 14, 2021, 3:09 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 14, 2021, 10:21 am More so hard decisions for the coach methinks.
Correct.
Stuart is certainly going to give Croker every chance and then some to prove he still has something to give. That will include the entirity of 2021. If we see more of his 2020 play, or worse... I dont for one second believe Stuart wont have the balls to make a tough call
Agreed.

Different circumstances with Campo, but I see a few similarities. The coach gave Campo a few shots at a comeback, but in the end they had to manage his way out of a long term contract.

I hope Toots can make it back, but I do have fears he has lost a few yards of pace and is physically a step behind the more physical centres.

I reckon Stuart is a bit nervous about it too.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

It's less than a year since he signed a 4-year deal so I don't think Sticky's too nervous.

Or are we back to Don Jr makes all player contract decisions on that eternal merry go round?
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Botman »

I dont think he's nervous now, but if Croker comes back in 2021 and looks like he did in 2020, or worse... it think this time next year he will be.
Fingers crossed he comes back fit and healthy, and has a bounce back season and we can allay those fears
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Boomercm »

Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Is there a list somewhere that shows the average age of teams in NRL? It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between average age and ladder position at the end of each year.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by The Nickman »

Boomercm wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Is there a list somewhere that shows the average age of teams in NRL? It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between average age and ladder position at the end of each year.
I don’t think so.

Hope that helps
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Northern Raider »

The Nickman wrote: February 16, 2021, 6:02 am
Boomercm wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Is there a list somewhere that shows the average age of teams in NRL? It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between average age and ladder position at the end of each year.
I don’t think so.

Hope that helps
Stats would be available but you would need to manually collate them. It would be interesting to know but I couldn't be bothered. Where's Matt?
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Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by greeneyed »

Boomercm wrote: February 15, 2021, 7:07 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Is there a list somewhere that shows the average age of teams in NRL? It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between average age and ladder position at the end of each year.
Quick Google search found these. I’d say mix of youth and experience works best.

2020: https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/11/25/sta ... s-in-2020/

The Raiders aren’t that old on that basis, but the team actually selected in the early rounds was just slightly older than average:



2019: https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/02/11/sta ... r-in-2019/

2018: https://www.zerotackle.com/what-is-the- ... lub-34190/

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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by The Nickman »

Great work, as always, Ferg
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Rickmando »

Noted above - we are MASSIVELY in our premiership window and it’s only taken us 25 years to get back in one after the last. I hope sentimentality doesn’t trump the need to address the issue that was both 2020’s weakest link and elephant in the room.

Plenty of occasions last year when Croker didn’t look NRL standard. He should be on a short leash this year
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Boomercm »

greeneyed wrote: February 16, 2021, 8:43 am
Boomercm wrote: February 15, 2021, 7:07 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Is there a list somewhere that shows the average age of teams in NRL? It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between average age and ladder position at the end of each year.

The Raiders aren’t that old on that basis, but the team actually selected in the early rounds was just slightly older than average:

2019: https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/02/11/sta ... r-in-2019/

2018: https://www.zerotackle.com/what-is-the- ... lub-34190/

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Fantastic. Thank you. Does not seem to be an obvious relationship between age and performance. The mix of youth and experience is intuitive - agree
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by afgtnk »

Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Our squad isn't one of the oldest in the NRL mate.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by gangrenous »

Reckon that point was rebutted a few posts back already in quite some detail
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

afgtnk wrote: February 21, 2021, 8:24 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Our squad isn't one of the oldest in the NRL mate.
OK brains, tell me - where does our 2021 squad fit then?

Croker, Hodgson, Lui, James, Whitehead, Rapana and Soliola all 30 or over this season. Papa turns 29.

I'm not talking about the half dozen fringe outside backs that aren't going to see first grade this season. I'm talking about the core of our first grade team.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

greeneyed wrote: February 16, 2021, 8:43 am Image
Yep, well I hate to say it, but it's a year on and we have basically the same team - just add Ryan James for Bateman, making us older.

If we line up with something like this in round 1, our average age is 26.7, ranking top 4 last season. Also, most of the teams around us last year had a bunch of players retire or leave (Graham, Cooper, Smith, Aubusson, Marshall, Lawrence, Blair, Bukuya, McQueen). We didn't.

1 Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad (25)
2 Bailey Simonsson (23)
3 Matthew Timoko (21)
4 Curtis Scott (23)
5 Jordan Rapana (31)
6 Jack Wighton (28)
7 George Williams (26)
8 Josh Papalii (28)
9 Josh Hodgson (31)
10 Dunamis Lui (31)
11 Hudson Young (22)
12 Elliott Whitehead (31)
13 Joseph Tapine (26)
14 Tom Starling (22)
15 Ryan James (29)
16 Emre Guler (23)
17 Sia Soliola (34)

If Croker replaces Timoko it's 27.2, older than any team last year.

Either way, it clearly makes us one of the oldest teams in the NRL.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by zim »

Be more interesting to see some graphs based on age in positions. Experienced forwards and young backs would give you a similar average to the reverse but you'd expect teams with experience in the forwards to perform better given the role of middles in the game.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by afgtnk »

Seiffert82 wrote: February 21, 2021, 9:33 pm
afgtnk wrote: February 21, 2021, 8:24 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Our squad isn't one of the oldest in the NRL mate.
OK brains, tell me - where does our 2021 squad fit then?

Croker, Hodgson, Lui, James, Whitehead, Rapana and Soliola all 30 or over this season. Papa turns 29.

I'm not talking about the half dozen fringe outside backs that aren't going to see first grade this season. I'm talking about the core of our first grade team.
You do understand what a squad is, do you not?

If not someone I'm sure someone can explain it.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

afgtnk wrote: February 22, 2021, 1:36 am
Seiffert82 wrote: February 21, 2021, 9:33 pm
afgtnk wrote: February 21, 2021, 8:24 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Our squad isn't one of the oldest in the NRL mate.
OK brains, tell me - where does our 2021 squad fit then?

Croker, Hodgson, Lui, James, Whitehead, Rapana and Soliola all 30 or over this season. Papa turns 29.

I'm not talking about the half dozen fringe outside backs that aren't going to see first grade this season. I'm talking about the core of our first grade team.
You do understand what a squad is, do you not?

If not someone I'm sure someone can explain it.
Thanks for that.

I'm clearly talking about our premiership chances, not the blokes filling the last 10 spots on the roster.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by -TW- »

Sia is a relative outlier

He finishes up and it's back to 25/26

There's another 2 maybe 3 years left in the older guys.

Or keep doing what Melbourne do and turn over the squad pretty regularly for your non spine players.

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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

-TW- wrote: February 22, 2021, 7:10 am Sia is a relative outlier

He finishes up and it's back to 25/26

There's another 2 maybe 3 years left in the older guys.

Or keep doing what Melbourne do and turn over the squad pretty regularly for your non spine players.

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Yep, if you replace both Croker and Soliola with 22 year olds, the top 17 averages 26.

The last time I recall our first grade team having this many 30+ year olds was the mid 2000's when we had the likes of Jason Croker, Woolford, Jason Smith, Mogg and Schifcofske. Once they left, our premiership window which was briefly ajar in 2003 was slammed shut.

The clock is ticking on some of our core players. My point is, I don't think Stuart will be wasting a great deal of time on Toots if he's not playing up to scratch.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Botman »

Yep, 100% agree with the above
We're old but mostly due to a few outliers... our squad is actually pretty young. Though we're a veteran 17.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by afgtnk »

Seiffert82 wrote: February 22, 2021, 6:30 am
afgtnk wrote: February 22, 2021, 1:36 am
Seiffert82 wrote: February 21, 2021, 9:33 pm
afgtnk wrote: February 21, 2021, 8:24 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 15, 2021, 12:30 pm That might be right, but Stuart would also be aware that our squad is now one of the oldest in the NRL.

The clock is ticking on the likes of Hodgo and Whitehead as well as Toots (not to mention Rapa and Lui), so Stuart won't want to waste too much time while our premiership window is open. The young fellas in the outside backs would be well aware there are a few opportunities coming up.
Our squad isn't one of the oldest in the NRL mate.
OK brains, tell me - where does our 2021 squad fit then?

Croker, Hodgson, Lui, James, Whitehead, Rapana and Soliola all 30 or over this season. Papa turns 29.

I'm not talking about the half dozen fringe outside backs that aren't going to see first grade this season. I'm talking about the core of our first grade team.
You do understand what a squad is, do you not?

If not someone I'm sure someone can explain it.
Thanks for that.

I'm clearly talking about our premiership chances, not the blokes filling the last 10 spots on the roster.
And it's been shown to you that at the back end of last season, three of the four oldest sides made the Prelims - one of which were the Premiers. Old =/= reduced premiership chances.

A small expected clean-up of the squad at the end of the season that will affect the top 20-25 players will have our age brought down. Nothing to worry about.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by BJ »

I’d rather hardened players who expect to be top 4 than another bunch of potential stars such as Carney or Dugan who are more interested in drinking and contract size.

These players are our best chance in 20 plus years. I’d love a Tedesco at fullback or Latrell in the centres, but this experienced lot will do me.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

afgtnk wrote: February 22, 2021, 9:17 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: February 22, 2021, 6:30 am
afgtnk wrote: February 22, 2021, 1:36 am
Seiffert82 wrote: February 21, 2021, 9:33 pm
afgtnk wrote: February 21, 2021, 8:24 pm

Our squad isn't one of the oldest in the NRL mate.
OK brains, tell me - where does our 2021 squad fit then?

Croker, Hodgson, Lui, James, Whitehead, Rapana and Soliola all 30 or over this season. Papa turns 29.

I'm not talking about the half dozen fringe outside backs that aren't going to see first grade this season. I'm talking about the core of our first grade team.
You do understand what a squad is, do you not?

If not someone I'm sure someone can explain it.
Thanks for that.

I'm clearly talking about our premiership chances, not the blokes filling the last 10 spots on the roster.
And it's been shown to you that at the back end of last season, three of the four oldest sides made the Prelims - one of which were the Premiers. Old =/= reduced premiership chances.

A small expected clean-up of the squad at the end of the season that will affect the top 20-25 players will have our age brought down. Nothing to worry about.
Ok, firstly, I'm well aware that our 17 is the right blend of youth and experience. Hence my initial point about Stuart not mucking around with Croker while our premiership window is open. We're in our prime, with about 2-3 years left with this core.

Secondly, 5 minutes ago you were telling me that we did not have an old squad. Now you're telling me it's good that we do as 3 of the 4 oldest squads made the prelims. Thanks for that Einstein.

Thirdly, now you're telling me how easy it is to freshen up your squad. This coming from the bloke who couldn't stop telling us how **** the younger guys like Young and Valemei have been. You're the first person to write off half the rookies coming in and guys like CNK when he doesn't play like Tedesco.

Fourthly, is not easy replacing world class players like Hodgo, Whitehead and Rapana. That's the point about winning now.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by afgtnk »

Correction - three out of the top four were the oldest. We weren't amongst them. That's what I was clearly talking about. Right???

I'm the first person to call rookies out? No, there are dozens of people doing the same. I want Valemei to clear up some of his deficiencies in his game in reserves, that are unaffordable at FG level. He has loads of potential, but premiership winning sides aren't based on mere potential. They have to be polished and be the real deal.

You've seemingly still got your knickers in a knot because you thought Young played well in the second row, when he didn't. He may do. He started to perform at a very high level in the middle, and now a lot of fans want to keep him there, including me. You were shut down by the majority of posters about this, no doubt you still think otherwise despite that.

Despite your ardent and bizzare claims that you know what wins premierships, made probably from your computer chair somewhere, you clearly have no idea what makes a team successful. The Storm in particular have seen you uppercut yourself routinely, and embarrassingly you choose to double down instead of retract. Now this oldest squad nonsense. Perhaps it's better to give it a bit of rest, yeah?
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

I haven't doubled down on anything regarding the Storm. I gave Bellamy ample credit for winning this year's comp. I still don't like the negative, spoiling tactics he has historically brought to the game. You can disagree with that all you like for all I care.

As usual, you're entirely incapable of following what I am actually saying (Hudson Young being a classic example - I'm sure you are convinced I regard him as a better second rower than middle).

Let's not forget that this whole stupid discussion started when you disagreed we had an older squad. Now you're lecturing me on the fact older teams, including the Raiders, were heavily represented in the top 4.

Again, this is getting tedious.
Last edited by Seiffert82 on February 23, 2021, 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by The Nickman »

You two are the BEST
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

It's **** boring, that's what it is.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by zim »

The Nickman wrote: February 23, 2021, 2:44 pm You two are the BEST
Who's older though? That's what the discussion is about right?
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by afgtnk »

Seiffert82 wrote: February 23, 2021, 2:41 pm I haven't doubled down on anything regarding the Storm. I gave Bellamy ample credit for winning this year's comp. I still don't like the negative, spoiling tactics he has historically brought to the game. You can disagree with that all you like for all I care.

As usual, you're entirely incapable of following what I am actually saying (Hudson Young being a classic example - I'm sure you are convinced I regard him as a better second rower than middle).

Let's not forget that this whole stupid discussion started when you disagreed we had an older squad. Now you're lecturing me on the fact older teams, including the Raiders, were heavily represented in the top 4.

Again, this is getting tedious.
I said it did not include the Raiders. My last post. In plain, simple English.

We weren't in the top 4. **** me :lol:
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BadnMean
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by BadnMean »

zim wrote: February 23, 2021, 2:55 pm
The Nickman wrote: February 23, 2021, 2:44 pm You two are the BEST
Who's older though? That's what the discussion is about right?
I think they have the inside word GE is going to begin culling some of the older board members, Logan's Run style and that's why it's so heated.

Damn, that Logan's Run reference just gave my age away tho...
Last edited by BadnMean on February 23, 2021, 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Seiffert82
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by Seiffert82 »

afgtnk wrote: February 22, 2021, 9:17 pm
And it's been shown to you that at the back end of last season, three of the four oldest sides made the Prelims - one of which were the Premiers. Old =/= reduced premiership chances.

A small expected clean-up of the squad at the end of the season that will affect the top 20-25 players will have our age brought down. Nothing to worry about.
The four sides that made the Prelims last year were Penrith, South Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra. All bar Penrith were an older team.

Are you talking top 4 or Prelims?

What the **** are you talking about?

In any case, I never said or implied old sides aren't competitive. Quite the opposite in fact.

Sorry mate, you'll have to excuse me. I'm out.
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Re: Jarrod Croker to miss start of 2021 season after shoulder surgery

Post by The Nickman »

BadnMean wrote: February 23, 2021, 4:23 pm
zim wrote: February 23, 2021, 2:55 pm
The Nickman wrote: February 23, 2021, 2:44 pm You two are the BEST
Who's older though? That's what the discussion is about right?
I think they have the inside word GE is going to begin culling some of the older board members, Logan's Run style and that's why it's so heated.

Damn, that Logan's Run reference just gabe my age away tho...
That sucks, I'm really going to miss RedRaider :'(
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