2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

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The Nickman
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by The Nickman »

I refuse to blame this loss on the Queensland Government, that's a complete cop-out and we shouldn't be peddling it.

We were quite Frankly outplayed, and I think a lot of that came after we emptied the tank the week before against the Roosters.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by -TW- »

The Nickman wrote:I refuse to blame this loss on the Queensland Government, that's a complete cop-out and we shouldn't be peddling it.

We were quite Frankly outplayed, and I think a lot of that came after we emptied the tank the week before against the Roosters.
Yeah we were cooked, so far off the pace it wasn't funny

An hour nap in a hotel wasn't fixing that

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afgtnk
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by afgtnk »

Seiffert82 wrote: October 29, 2020, 3:28 pm
afgtnk wrote: October 29, 2020, 2:29 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: October 29, 2020, 1:26 pm
papabear wrote: October 29, 2020, 12:23 pm of all our spine hodgson worries me the most and hes the one we have the best back up for.

IMO if hodgson doesnt overplay his hand next year and gives more effective contributions instead of quantity contributions CNKs attack will not really determine how we go, we will go really well and contend again, probably even closer, if not winning it all.

If hodgson tries to be the man to often and robbie farahs his way through next season, we will lose a lot of points and have people asking for more starling and less hodgson, no matter how good CNK goes.
Agree with all that.

A spine containing Hodgson, Wighton and Williams should not need to rely on one of the best defensive fullbacks in the comp becoming Billy Slater with the ball for our attack to be effective.

At the end of the day we made a Prelim Final and were completely screwed over by the QLD Gov't in our prep for that game. I don't think CNK is one of our biggest concerns.
Worse excuse than blaming a baby for a 30 year old centre going into physical decline tbh.

We lost that game because the Melbourne Storm comprehensively outplayed us, through the talent in their team and the ability of their coach to put a plan together that we had no answers for. We could've been up there for two weeks and it wouldn't have done squat.
Righto champion.

We conceded 18 points in 5 minutes of horrible football and ultimately lost by 20 after creating and murdering a number of opportunities.

It wasn't some masterful gameplan that killed us
. We just played some of the worst football we have all season.

Anyway, you believe what you want to believe.
It really was, and true to form, you're unable to take it because of course it's Craig Bellamy.

We were made to play bad because our main strengths were taken out of the game and our deepest weaknesses were exploited, to an extent that no other team other than the Storm managed to do all season. They hatched another brilliant plan for the grand final, where they themselves were the ones who were subjected COVID imposed travel, wiping out the Bull travel excuse a small minority are trying to peddle, and beat a team that was only conquered once before then with their FULLBACK winning the CC.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

afgtnk wrote: October 29, 2020, 4:45 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: October 29, 2020, 3:28 pm
afgtnk wrote: October 29, 2020, 2:29 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: October 29, 2020, 1:26 pm
papabear wrote: October 29, 2020, 12:23 pm of all our spine hodgson worries me the most and hes the one we have the best back up for.

IMO if hodgson doesnt overplay his hand next year and gives more effective contributions instead of quantity contributions CNKs attack will not really determine how we go, we will go really well and contend again, probably even closer, if not winning it all.

If hodgson tries to be the man to often and robbie farahs his way through next season, we will lose a lot of points and have people asking for more starling and less hodgson, no matter how good CNK goes.
Agree with all that.

A spine containing Hodgson, Wighton and Williams should not need to rely on one of the best defensive fullbacks in the comp becoming Billy Slater with the ball for our attack to be effective.

At the end of the day we made a Prelim Final and were completely screwed over by the QLD Gov't in our prep for that game. I don't think CNK is one of our biggest concerns.
Worse excuse than blaming a baby for a 30 year old centre going into physical decline tbh.

We lost that game because the Melbourne Storm comprehensively outplayed us, through the talent in their team and the ability of their coach to put a plan together that we had no answers for. We could've been up there for two weeks and it wouldn't have done squat.
Righto champion.

We conceded 18 points in 5 minutes of horrible football and ultimately lost by 20 after creating and murdering a number of opportunities.

It wasn't some masterful gameplan that killed us
. We just played some of the worst football we have all season.

Anyway, you believe what you want to believe.
It really was, and true to form, you're unable to take it because of course it's Craig Bellamy.

We were made to play bad because our main strengths were taken out of the game and our deepest weaknesses were exploited, to an extent that no other team other than the Storm managed to do all season. They hatched another brilliant plan for the grand final, where they themselves were the ones who were subjected COVID imposed travel, wiping out the Bull travel excuse a small minority are trying to peddle, and beat a team that was only conquered once before then with their FULLBACK winning the CC.
OK, now's your chance to explain what the special gameplan was.

Spreading the ball wide when we compressed our defence? Was that it? Kicking the ball to a rookie winger on the last?

I'm looking forward to hearing about these special tactics.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by afgtnk »

Ff sake :lol:

I'm not going to bother repeating myself. If you genuinely want my thoughts, and the thoughts of the many others who saw the same or similar things, go through the game day thread.

If you want to use a pathetically weak excuse to explain why the Storm played us off the park, instead of acknowledging that we were simply beaten by a better team, and by a brilliant coach who outsmarted us, then be my guest. You're largely on your own here.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

afgtnk wrote: October 29, 2020, 6:30 pm Ff sake :lol:

I'm not going to bother repeating myself. If you genuinely want my thoughts, and the thoughts of the many others who saw the same or similar things, go through the game day thread.

If you want to use a pathetically weak excuse to explain why the Storm played us off the park, instead of acknowledging that we were simply beaten by a better team, and by a brilliant coach who outsmarted us, then be my guest. You're largely on your own here.
Put up or shut up.

What are these tactics you speak of? Your typical bleatings in a game day thread (which I'm in no way inclined to go through) are irrelevant.

Missed tackles aren't tactics. I'm not at all suggesting the Storm weren't better than us on the day. You said it had nothing to do with travel and it was largely about being outcoached. What special plan or prep did Bellamy bring to that game? I'm genuinely interested.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by afgtnk »

Seiffert82 wrote: October 29, 2020, 7:05 pm
afgtnk wrote: October 29, 2020, 6:30 pm Ff sake :lol:

I'm not going to bother repeating myself. If you genuinely want my thoughts, and the thoughts of the many others who saw the same or similar things, go through the game day thread.

If you want to use a pathetically weak excuse to explain why the Storm played us off the park, instead of acknowledging that we were simply beaten by a better team, and by a brilliant coach who outsmarted us, then be my guest. You're largely on your own here.
Put up or shut up.

What are these tactics you speak of? Your typical bleatings in a game day thread (which I'm in no way inclined to go through) are irrelevant.

Missed tackles aren't tactics. I'm not at all suggesting the Storm weren't better than us on the day. You said it had nothing to do with travel and it was largely about being outcoached. What special plan or prep did Bellamy bring to that game? I'm genuinely interested.
You have absolutely no idea about the game mate, I'm sorry. Can't help you. Keep beating that 'Storm and Bellamy are overrated' drum by your lonely self.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Toviii »

We clearly compress our defense when teams are coming out of their own ends, and Melbourne spread it wide early to full advantage. Our edges were exposed so badly it was embarrassing.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Matt »

Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I think the reason for this is well documented. As is us complaining about not attacking the the right. However, Ricky made the call a long long way out, and he wasnt going to change it for a prelim.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by The Nickman »

Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I agree with everything you've said here, but I also refuse to blame the Queensland Government.

The raiders ran their grand final the week before and the Storm were simply better, and executed better... everything else is just excuses.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

The Nickman wrote: October 30, 2020, 10:46 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I agree with everything you've said here, but I also refuse to blame the Queensland Government.

The raiders ran their grand final the week before and the Storm were simply better, and executed better... everything else is just excuses.
Yeah, at the end of the day the Storm hit the ground running and totally capitalised on our errors. They did it to the Panthers in the Grand Final too. Credit to them, they were clearly the best team in both games.

However, I also have no doubt our prep for the Prelim didn't help our performance. It was far from ideal and our opening 20 was as bad as we've seen from the Raiders in years.

Anyway, it's all history now. Ultimately we lost a couple of games that we should have won to get us in the top 4. We didn't, at that was the result. To that extent, it's all on our own head.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

Matt wrote: October 30, 2020, 8:35 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I think the reason for this is well documented. As is us complaining about not attacking the the right. However, Ricky made the call a long long way out, and he wasnt going to change it for a prelim.
No. He also made the public statement about Cotric not being a centre when he was negotiating with the Dogs, so I suspect Stuart's stubbornness in not wanting to backflip didn't help when it came to making rational decisions.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Matt »

Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 11:10 am
Matt wrote: October 30, 2020, 8:35 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I think the reason for this is well documented. As is us complaining about not attacking the the right. However, Ricky made the call a long long way out, and he wasnt going to change it for a prelim.
No. He also made the public statement about Cotric not being a centre when he was negotiating with the Dogs, so I suspect Stuart's stubbornness in not wanting to backflip didn't help when it came to making rational decisions.
Thats exactly what im saying. Ricky made the call a long way out and he wasnt going to change it.
TBF, Cotric said last yr he wanted to play wing, not centre.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by BJ »

Cotric came out in the press about wanting to be a winger not a centre. Bit hard to put this so heavily on Ricky.

Plus some of the poor passes Cotric threw at Centre were below NRL level. But I think it’s an area he will certainly improve.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by afgtnk »

Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 11:07 am
The Nickman wrote: October 30, 2020, 10:46 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I agree with everything you've said here, but I also refuse to blame the Queensland Government.

The raiders ran their grand final the week before and the Storm were simply better, and executed better... everything else is just excuses.
Yeah, at the end of the day the Storm hit the ground running and totally capitalised on our errors. They did it to the Panthers in the Grand Final too. Credit to them, they were clearly the best team in both games.

However, I also have no doubt our prep for the Prelim didn't help our performance. It was far from ideal and our opening 20 was as bad as we've seen from the Raiders in years.

Anyway, it's all history now. Ultimately we lost a couple of games that we should have won to get us in the top 4. We didn't, at that was the result. To that extent, it's all on our own head.
You realise that's a plan, to come out like that and force team into mistakes, don't you? I mean it doesn't happen by chance.

It seems that a minority stuck in the past still think that all there is to the slapping some talent onto the field and wishing them luck, without considering these coaches putting in meticulous preparation, the video, the analysis, opposing sessions, ESPECIALLY for games like these, to target the opposition as best they can.

Too often fans are quick to blame their own side for their failings, without realising that they're actually coaxed into them. That's where the credit needs to go to the other side - we had little to do with it. We would not have stopped the Storm playing the way they did even if we hadn't made these 'errors' you keep alluding to. We didn't have the game for it - that's not dependent on rest, the refs, the QLD government, or Jarrod Croker's troublesome baby.

They knew our forwards were our strength, which off the back of that comes our two halves. They took them right out of the game by playing the game mainly on the fringes, between the backs. Within that comes a variety of tactics and plans, but that was the overarching philosophy coming into it and we were subsequently murdered.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by BJ »

I do think the additional travel took its toll during the season restart, but it can’t be used as an excuse for a one off knock out final a week from the grand final.

Storm tactically and physically outplayed us in the first 20 minutes and some individuals didn’t stand up.

I also think the Panthers and Eels had an easier draw and schedule than other teams and it was shown up during the final series. Eels top 4 was a travesty.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

afgtnk wrote: October 30, 2020, 12:41 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 11:07 am
The Nickman wrote: October 30, 2020, 10:46 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I agree with everything you've said here, but I also refuse to blame the Queensland Government.

The raiders ran their grand final the week before and the Storm were simply better, and executed better... everything else is just excuses.
Yeah, at the end of the day the Storm hit the ground running and totally capitalised on our errors. They did it to the Panthers in the Grand Final too. Credit to them, they were clearly the best team in both games.

However, I also have no doubt our prep for the Prelim didn't help our performance. It was far from ideal and our opening 20 was as bad as we've seen from the Raiders in years.

Anyway, it's all history now. Ultimately we lost a couple of games that we should have won to get us in the top 4. We didn't, at that was the result. To that extent, it's all on our own head.
You realise that's a plan, to come out like that and force team into mistakes, don't you? I mean it doesn't happen by chance.

It seems that a minority stuck in the past still think that all there is to the slapping some talent onto the field and wishing them luck, without considering these coaches putting in meticulous preparation, the video, the analysis, opposing sessions, ESPECIALLY for games like these, to target the opposition as best they can.

Too often fans are quick to blame their own side for their failings, without realising that they're actually coaxed into them. That's where the credit needs to go to the other side - we had little to do with it. We would not have stopped the Storm playing the way they did even if we hadn't made these 'errors' you keep alluding to. We didn't have the game for it - that's not dependent on rest, the refs, the QLD government, or Jarrod Croker's troublesome baby.

They knew our forwards were our strength, which off the back of that comes our two halves. They took them right out of the game by playing the game mainly on the fringes, between the backs. Within that comes a variety of tactics and plans, but that was the overarching philosophy coming into it and we were subsequently murdered.
So, the meticulously structured gameplan was to target our edges in defence and to spread the ball to beat our compressed defensive line.

Seems like a pretty normal thing to do when playing a team with a rookie winger on one side of the field and a winger playing in the centres on the other side. Genius!!

Thank God the Storm had Bellamy to figure those tactics out.

At the end of the day the Storm played us like every other team this year played us. In this instance we couldn't stand up to it for a horror 5 minute spell and they cashed in big time. Nobody is arguing against that.

As Stuart indicated, we were well below the standard we set ourselves. He's right.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

Matt wrote: October 30, 2020, 11:38 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 11:10 am
Matt wrote: October 30, 2020, 8:35 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I think the reason for this is well documented. As is us complaining about not attacking the the right. However, Ricky made the call a long long way out, and he wasnt going to change it for a prelim.
No. He also made the public statement about Cotric not being a centre when he was negotiating with the Dogs, so I suspect Stuart's stubbornness in not wanting to backflip didn't help when it came to making rational decisions.
Thats exactly what im saying. Ricky made the call a long way out and he wasnt going to change it.
TBF, Cotric said last yr he wanted to play wing, not centre.
Yeah sorry, the "No" was actually in agreement with you.

It was a tough situation. Maybe Stuart did ask Cotric if he was up for it and he said he wasn't. Seems a bit odd with the stuff around the Dogs though.

Anyway, he would almost certainly have been a better option than Rapana. Those two should have switched.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by gangrenous »

Seiffert82 wrote:
Matt wrote: October 30, 2020, 8:35 am
Seiffert82 wrote: October 30, 2020, 7:39 am Yep, Melbourne executed that well. Most decent teams exploit that defense.

The key difference in the prelim was that we missed tackles that we should have made, when we had their attack well and truly covered.

I think we all agree that Stuart also stuffed up with selecting Rapana in the centres. Most teams exploited his positioning to good effect.
I think the reason for this is well documented. As is us complaining about not attacking the the right. However, Ricky made the call a long long way out, and he wasnt going to change it for a prelim.
No. He also made the public statement about Cotric not being a centre when he was negotiating with the Dogs, so I suspect Stuart's stubbornness in not wanting to backflip didn't help when it came to making rational decisions.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. The correct answer was neither of the above imo.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by BadnMean »

Timoko centre, Cotric left wing, Rapana right wing... I guess Ricky just made his punt on the rookie he thought would handle it best. We'll never _quite_ know if Timoko would have gone better than Semi. But it looks good on paper and 75% of it (Croker too) has worked before.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by greeneyed »

BadnMean wrote: October 30, 2020, 6:58 pm Timoko centre, Cotric left wing, Rapana right wing... I guess Ricky just made his punt on the rookie he thought would handle it best. We'll never _quite_ know if Timoko would have gone better than Semi. But it looks good on paper and 75% of it (Croker too) has worked before.
A lot of people thought it was the wrong call. I felt Timoko earned his spot in the centres in Round 20, with Rapana best on the wing. But I certainly wasn’t going to argue with the coach’s call at the time. Timoko was clearly the more speculative call. The much safer call was to stick with with Valemei. But in hindsight, I believe Timoko was the right call for the finals. We all are right with hindsight of course... and when you can’t prove the alternative.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by Seiffert82 »

Yeah, if for whatever reason Stuart wasn't sold on Timoko then I still think we would have been better served with Cotric and Rapana swapping positions.

As you say though, it's all speculative.
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Re: 2020 in review - Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad

Post by RedRaider »

CNK's second season with the Raiders and I thought it was a good one. I think the 7-7.5/10 is a fair rating. This year we have seen him use a cut out pass and a grubber kick, admittedly rarely but they were there this year when they weren't there last year. He is still a work in progress and he has a massive heart. His try saving tackle on Morris against the Chooks was one of the best fullback tackles of the year imo. He is there for hit up after hit up down our end. I am happy for him to be our FB because of his courage, safety at the back and development potential.

As to the Preliminary final loss against Storm, well they applied pressure and it was up to us to respond. Two of our most experienced backs had moments they would like over again. We now know that JC had an injured shoulder but he had Vunivalu dead to rights against the sideline and took a dummy when any kind of collision would have had him over the sideline. It was the last tackle of the set and we would have got the ball back rather than see the Storm go up by 3 tries. Cotric had an airswing at a ball behind our goal line when to catch it and ground it would have brought the same goal line drop out result. Yes we are all clever in hindsight, but from our most experienced back and a SOO winger who are used to pressure, I think fans and coaching staff would have expected a better outcome than what was delivered.
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