2020 season player ratings

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Ruben Daley
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Ruben Daley »

rayden83 wrote: October 17, 2020, 10:26 am
Ruben Daley wrote: October 17, 2020, 7:58 am Wow. We did exceptionally well to get within a game of the GF after beating the two-time premiers with such an ordinary team.

These ratings stink. “Wighton - 7 another solid season for Jack” - are you kidding me?

Your assessment is a reflection of a poor loser who doesn’t really know much about footy.

That game sucked but season was impressive. Pull your head in.
Naw okayz everyone gets 10 then especially Wighton because he “bleeds green” and Crokes gets bonus browny points for weaning the ken Stephens medal.

La la la la
I’ll just leave this here.

“Canberra Raiders five-eighth Jack Wighton has capped a remarkable season by claiming the club's first Dally M medal in 25 years...”

https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/10/19/jac ... y-m-medal/
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BadnMean
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by BadnMean »

The standard defence is "oh dally ms are always wrong"- but looking at this years positionals etc... they got an awful lot right.

But yeah as we argued earlier, best in the comp? Pff, that's only a 7/0 at Sticky's Raiders mate.
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gangrenous
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by gangrenous »

7/0 is infinity. Sounds like a Dally M winning year
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by rayden83 »

Congrats to Jack, not sure if he was the best player in the NRL 2020, but being a Raider I’ll accept it.

It’s worth noting though that in rounds 10, 11 and 19, where Jack scored 3 Dally M points in each game (total 9), he failed to register any points among Raiders fans in the 2020 Fans Choice Player of the Year.

My point is Dally M is highly subjective, not a rigid, methodical, objective analysis of individual player performance.

I stand by the 7 I gave Jack. I would have given him a 7.5, but I decided to stick to whole numbers, and I didn’t give him the extra point on the basis I thought he was slightly down on 2019 form. Still, 7 is a GOOD score, and congrats to JW once again.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Ruben Daley »

rayden83 wrote: October 19, 2020, 10:05 pm Congrats to Jack, not sure if he was the best player in the NRL 2020, but being a Raider I’ll accept it.

It’s worth noting though that in rounds 10, 11 and 19, where Jack scored 3 Dally M points in each game (total 9), he failed to register any points among Raiders fans in the 2020 Fans Choice Player of the Year.

My point is Dally M is highly subjective, not a rigid, methodical, objective analysis of individual player performance.

I stand by the 7 I gave Jack. I would have given him a 7.5, but I decided to stick to whole numbers, and I didn’t give him the extra point on the basis I thought he was slightly down on 2019 form. Still, 7 is a GOOD score, and congrats to JW once again.
Fair enough. Ratings and awards are just opinions.

I suppose my thinking is 7/10 is a pass. Like a C in high school.

Even if we say he wasn’t the best player in the comp this season, Jack is the best in his - very important - position or very, very close to it.

I just can’t see how anyone could score a 9/10 on your scale if he gets a 7. It’d take close to perfection to get an 8.

You look through the list of Dally M position winners and they all had cracking seasons but also all could have a long highlight reel of errors and all had other games where they went missing for periods.

I just think some of us have unreasonable expectations, which detract from the achievements of the team and mean we are only ever one bad performance away from a barrage of negativity. Like we’ve seen over the last week.
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Seiffert82
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Seiffert82 »

I also think it's easy to rate players solely on what they do with the ball in hand and ignore what they do in defence and the work they do off the ball.

Anyway, all of these things are just opinions. We all have 'em. As Stick has said, Wighton is far from a finished product at 5/8, but he's a pretty bloody good prototype.

Either way, he doesn't deserve the same rating as bit part players like Harawira-Neira, Starling or Sutton, nor does CNK deserve a rating lower than those blokes.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by greeneyed »

Ruben Daley wrote: October 20, 2020, 9:21 am
rayden83 wrote: October 19, 2020, 10:05 pm Congrats to Jack, not sure if he was the best player in the NRL 2020, but being a Raider I’ll accept it.

It’s worth noting though that in rounds 10, 11 and 19, where Jack scored 3 Dally M points in each game (total 9), he failed to register any points among Raiders fans in the 2020 Fans Choice Player of the Year.

My point is Dally M is highly subjective, not a rigid, methodical, objective analysis of individual player performance.

I stand by the 7 I gave Jack. I would have given him a 7.5, but I decided to stick to whole numbers, and I didn’t give him the extra point on the basis I thought he was slightly down on 2019 form. Still, 7 is a GOOD score, and congrats to JW once again.
Fair enough. Ratings and awards are just opinions.

I suppose my thinking is 7/10 is a pass. Like a C in high school.

Even if we say he wasn’t the best player in the comp this season, Jack is the best in his - very important - position or very, very close to it.

I just can’t see how anyone could score a 9/10 on your scale if he gets a 7. It’d take close to perfection to get an 8.

You look through the list of Dally M position winners and they all had cracking seasons but also all could have a long highlight reel of errors and all had other games where they went missing for periods.

I just think some of us have unreasonable expectations, which detract from the achievements of the team and mean we are only ever one bad performance away from a barrage of negativity. Like we’ve seen over the last week.
We have this debate every year in the annual player reviews. I think of it this way... it’s almost impossible for me to give a player a 10/10 rating for a particular game. A 10/10 implies a perfect game. A 9/10 rating is very rare. To suggest a player should be rated 9/10 for a whole season implies he’s just about perfect every game of the year. It’s what makes a 7 or 8/10 for a whole season, a very good, or exceptional rating.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Canberra Milk »

I would give Wighton an 8.5 I think. He was a bit lucky to get the Dally M but still had a fantastic season. He got tries and big plays when they mattered, as if he was carrying the team

Yes he doesn't have the linebreak and try assists, but he is a running five-eighth. It is not his "fault" that he's not partnered with a playmaking half. I would be interested to see Daley's 1995 stats as a comparison

He also has very good long kicking and like others have said, his effort plays in chasing kicks and defence

The best all-round attacking five-eighth is Luai to me. He can set them up and score them. Keary works fantastic in the Roosters system, has a great combo with Cordner and particularly Tedesco, but not sure he'd be so good in say the Raiders setup... Cody Walker is amazing but gets some of his stats in big clumps when they're smashing a team. There's probably not much between them all really. Munster also of course
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Canberra Milk »

Another factor is that Wighton's scored a lot of those tries purely off his own back... whereas a lot of say Keary's would be just from support play. Still important but not in the same league as individual efforts
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Ruben Daley »

greeneyed wrote: October 20, 2020, 10:38 am
Ruben Daley wrote: October 20, 2020, 9:21 am
rayden83 wrote: October 19, 2020, 10:05 pm Congrats to Jack, not sure if he was the best player in the NRL 2020, but being a Raider I’ll accept it.

It’s worth noting though that in rounds 10, 11 and 19, where Jack scored 3 Dally M points in each game (total 9), he failed to register any points among Raiders fans in the 2020 Fans Choice Player of the Year.

My point is Dally M is highly subjective, not a rigid, methodical, objective analysis of individual player performance.

I stand by the 7 I gave Jack. I would have given him a 7.5, but I decided to stick to whole numbers, and I didn’t give him the extra point on the basis I thought he was slightly down on 2019 form. Still, 7 is a GOOD score, and congrats to JW once again.
Fair enough. Ratings and awards are just opinions.

I suppose my thinking is 7/10 is a pass. Like a C in high school.

Even if we say he wasn’t the best player in the comp this season, Jack is the best in his - very important - position or very, very close to it.

I just can’t see how anyone could score a 9/10 on your scale if he gets a 7. It’d take close to perfection to get an 8.

You look through the list of Dally M position winners and they all had cracking seasons but also all could have a long highlight reel of errors and all had other games where they went missing for periods.

I just think some of us have unreasonable expectations, which detract from the achievements of the team and mean we are only ever one bad performance away from a barrage of negativity. Like we’ve seen over the last week.
We have this debate every year in the annual player reviews. I think of it this way... it’s almost impossible for me to give a player a 10/10 rating for a particular game. A 10/10 implies a perfect game. A 9/10 rating is very rare. To suggest a player should be rated 9/10 for a whole season implies he’s just about perfect every game of the year. It’s what makes a 7 or 8/10 for a whole season, a very good, or exceptional rating.
Yeah, I feel like I’ve read or been involved in this discussion every year.

I go back to the high school system. 5-7 out of 10 is a C. It’s where most players sit like most students. An 8/10 is B for players above average. An A is 9/10 for outstanding play. I think the difference is it’s shouldn’t be considered ‘almost perfect’. That’s too high for sport. A 10/10 is perfection and therefore unachievable or very close to it.

To me, Jack is clearly above the pack and it’s a matter of whether you consider his play over the season outstanding. So it’s 8/10 or above.

But, again, that’s just my system. I just can’t see how anyone can achieve an 8 or 9 with some other guys’ systems.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by greeneyed »

Ruben Daley wrote: October 20, 2020, 10:57 am
greeneyed wrote: October 20, 2020, 10:38 am
Ruben Daley wrote: October 20, 2020, 9:21 am
rayden83 wrote: October 19, 2020, 10:05 pm Congrats to Jack, not sure if he was the best player in the NRL 2020, but being a Raider I’ll accept it.

It’s worth noting though that in rounds 10, 11 and 19, where Jack scored 3 Dally M points in each game (total 9), he failed to register any points among Raiders fans in the 2020 Fans Choice Player of the Year.

My point is Dally M is highly subjective, not a rigid, methodical, objective analysis of individual player performance.

I stand by the 7 I gave Jack. I would have given him a 7.5, but I decided to stick to whole numbers, and I didn’t give him the extra point on the basis I thought he was slightly down on 2019 form. Still, 7 is a GOOD score, and congrats to JW once again.
Fair enough. Ratings and awards are just opinions.

I suppose my thinking is 7/10 is a pass. Like a C in high school.

Even if we say he wasn’t the best player in the comp this season, Jack is the best in his - very important - position or very, very close to it.

I just can’t see how anyone could score a 9/10 on your scale if he gets a 7. It’d take close to perfection to get an 8.

You look through the list of Dally M position winners and they all had cracking seasons but also all could have a long highlight reel of errors and all had other games where they went missing for periods.

I just think some of us have unreasonable expectations, which detract from the achievements of the team and mean we are only ever one bad performance away from a barrage of negativity. Like we’ve seen over the last week.
We have this debate every year in the annual player reviews. I think of it this way... it’s almost impossible for me to give a player a 10/10 rating for a particular game. A 10/10 implies a perfect game. A 9/10 rating is very rare. To suggest a player should be rated 9/10 for a whole season implies he’s just about perfect every game of the year. It’s what makes a 7 or 8/10 for a whole season, a very good, or exceptional rating.
Yeah, I feel like I’ve read or been involved in this discussion every year.

I go back to the high school system. 5-7 out of 10 is a C. It’s where most players sit like most students. An 8/10 is B for players above average. An A is 9/10 for outstanding play. I think the difference is it’s shouldn’t be considered ‘almost perfect’. That’s too high for sport. A 10/10 is perfection and therefore unachievable or very close to it.

To me, Jack is clearly above the pack and it’s a matter of whether you consider his play over the season outstanding. So it’s 8/10 or above.

But, again, that’s just my system. I just can’t see how anyone can achieve an 8 or 9 with some other guys’ systems.
I agree, they won’t get 9/10, under a system which is based on game by game ratings (which I actually think is the best way of doing it... because it is based on the best objective assessment after every game... ratings done at the end of the year weight heavily towards form at the end of the season). This year, my average top Raiders player, up to the penultimate game, is Josh Papalii, with 7.3 points (putting Sam Williams aside, who got a 8 in the only game he played). Jack Withon is averaging 7.2. Last year I gave an allowance for a contribution to the season, so players who play lots of games and consistently play strongly get a bump (and vice versa). But even then, my top score is probably going to be around an 8.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by gangrenous »

greeneyed wrote: We have this debate every year in the annual player reviews. I think of it this way... it’s almost impossible for me to give a player a 10/10 rating for a particular game. A 10/10 implies a perfect game. A 9/10 rating is very rare. To suggest a player should be rated 9/10 for a whole season implies he’s just about perfect every game of the year. It’s what makes a 7 or 8/10 for a whole season, a very good, or exceptional rating.
I do look forward to our annual argument over this GE.

Of course, you’re still wrong Image your approach collapses all results to the mean so you have little difference in scores and don’t use your full range. Having a top shelf season like Papalii’s being given 7.3 out of 10 is nonsensical. From memory your adjustments last year helped fix that a bit.

As a season rating a 9 or 10 should reflect an outstanding season, not achieving 9 or 10 in every game.

I take your point on helping you keep objectivity across a season. But if you compare the totals to those of other players and across seasons you can still keep that objectivity and utilise your full range to convey a season score.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Seiffert82 »

Whatever way the points are awarded, if Wighton gets a 7, he clearly doesn't deserve the same rating as players like Harawira-Neira, Starling or Sutton - who were nowhere near our player of the year or playing in a way that made them a Dally M contender. Nor does CNK deserve a rating of 6, which is lower than those players.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by moto748 »

Wighton's had a great season, and as noted, he can still improve in the position. Luai would be my pick as best in the comp in his position, he creates a hell of a lot and is also a excellent defender. But Wighton wouldn't be far behind him. Surely he and Papalii have been the Raiders' best this year. I kinda agree with some of the criticism of CNK; if you made a list of the best full-backs in the comp, he would be a way down the list. He has his shortcomings in attack, but is generally solid in defence. I certainly wouldn't see him as a weakness, or, at least, not the most important one to be addressed. George has done great in his first year, getting steadily more involved, we should see more from him next year.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by rayden83 »

CNK was great last year in attack. This year not so much, but he did show flashes of ball player ability. IMO his defence is overrated, not a terrible defender but questionable under the high ball and possibly a bit slow.

He had a great first year but one good season doesn’t make a summer. I’d give him another year but if he fails to impress we need to go to market.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by gangrenous »

CNK defence questionable?

Seems you guys watch different Raiders games to me.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Matt »

Seiffert82 wrote: October 21, 2020, 6:21 am Whatever way the points are awarded, if Wighton gets a 7, he clearly doesn't deserve the same rating as players like Harawira-Neira, Starling or Sutton - who were nowhere near our player of the year or playing in a way that made them a Dally M contender. Nor does CNK deserve a rating of 6, which is lower than those players.
Agreed
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Matt »

greeneyed wrote: October 20, 2020, 11:09 am I agree, they won’t get 9/10, under a system which is based on game by game ratings (which I actually think is the best way of doing it... because it is based on the best objective assessment after every game... ratings done at the end of the year weight heavily towards form at the end of the season). This year, my average top Raiders player, up to the penultimate game, is Josh Papalii, with 7.3 points (putting Sam Williams aside, who got a 8 in the only game he played). Jack Withon is averaging 7.2. Last year I gave an allowance for a contribution to the season, so players who play lots of games and consistently play strongly get a bump (and vice versa). But even then, my top score is probably going to be around an 8.
Sorry GE, but if Papa and Jack are only 8s, you need another way to bump scores, both positively and negatively. Dally Ms need extra pts. Im sure there is a flip side too, but not sure what that is, suspension maybe?

I agree with everyone else, 1 and 10 should be nearly unachievable, but 2 and 9 should be.

Not sure what Papa and Jack need to do/ can do more, in a yr we made a prelim, they made rep sides, and both got Dally M awards (a GF is it).
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2020 season player ratings

Post by greeneyed »

Matt wrote:
greeneyed wrote: October 20, 2020, 11:09 am I agree, they won’t get 9/10, under a system which is based on game by game ratings (which I actually think is the best way of doing it... because it is based on the best objective assessment after every game... ratings done at the end of the year weight heavily towards form at the end of the season). This year, my average top Raiders player, up to the penultimate game, is Josh Papalii, with 7.3 points (putting Sam Williams aside, who got a 8 in the only game he played). Jack Withon is averaging 7.2. Last year I gave an allowance for a contribution to the season, so players who play lots of games and consistently play strongly get a bump (and vice versa). But even then, my top score is probably going to be around an 8.
Sorry GE, but if Papa and Jack are only 8s, you need another way to bump scores, both positively and negatively. Dally Ms need extra pts. Im sure there is a flip side too, but not sure what that is, suspension maybe?

I agree with everyone else, 1 and 10 should be nearly unachievable, but 2 and 9 should be.

Not sure what Papa and Jack need to do/ can do more, in a yr we made a prelim, they made rep sides, and both got Dally M awards (a GF is it).
I’m not sure I need to bump to a 9 for Dally Ms... given the points I’ve already made, an 8 will be a very strong rating. My scoring system is based on the most objective game by game analysis as I can muster. I expect Papalii and Wighton will already be at the top of the tree.

On another point in the discussion, I think people forget when players go through a dip, mid season... if they’re playing well at the end. Ratings made at a point in time, at the end of the season, are very likely going to be subject to recency bias.


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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by Matt »

greeneyed wrote: October 21, 2020, 7:05 pm
Matt wrote:
greeneyed wrote: October 20, 2020, 11:09 am I agree, they won’t get 9/10, under a system which is based on game by game ratings (which I actually think is the best way of doing it... because it is based on the best objective assessment after every game... ratings done at the end of the year weight heavily towards form at the end of the season). This year, my average top Raiders player, up to the penultimate game, is Josh Papalii, with 7.3 points (putting Sam Williams aside, who got a 8 in the only game he played). Jack Withon is averaging 7.2. Last year I gave an allowance for a contribution to the season, so players who play lots of games and consistently play strongly get a bump (and vice versa). But even then, my top score is probably going to be around an 8.
Sorry GE, but if Papa and Jack are only 8s, you need another way to bump scores, both positively and negatively. Dally Ms need extra pts. Im sure there is a flip side too, but not sure what that is, suspension maybe?

I agree with everyone else, 1 and 10 should be nearly unachievable, but 2 and 9 should be.

Not sure what Papa and Jack need to do/ can do more, in a yr we made a prelim, they made rep sides, and both got Dally M awards (a GF is it).
I’m not sure I need to bump to a 9 for Dally Ms... given the points I’ve already made, an 8 will be a very strong rating. My scoring system is based on the most objective game by game analysis as I can muster. I expect Papalii and Wighton will already be at the top of the tree.

On another point in the discussion, I think people forget when players go through a dip, mid season... if they’re playing well at the end. Ratings made at a point in time, at the end of the season, are very likely going to be subject to recency bias.


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Dally Ms, GH Live player of the yr, totalled over a season.
Both won both awards.
Dally M is much harder to win.
Definitely worth something.

30 players per squad x 16 teams = 480 NRL players (plus the odd development player)
Jack = #1 according to the Dally Ms.
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by gangrenous »

greeneyed wrote:
Matt wrote:
greeneyed wrote: October 20, 2020, 11:09 am I agree, they won’t get 9/10, under a system which is based on game by game ratings (which I actually think is the best way of doing it... because it is based on the best objective assessment after every game... ratings done at the end of the year weight heavily towards form at the end of the season). This year, my average top Raiders player, up to the penultimate game, is Josh Papalii, with 7.3 points (putting Sam Williams aside, who got a 8 in the only game he played). Jack Withon is averaging 7.2. Last year I gave an allowance for a contribution to the season, so players who play lots of games and consistently play strongly get a bump (and vice versa). But even then, my top score is probably going to be around an 8.
Sorry GE, but if Papa and Jack are only 8s, you need another way to bump scores, both positively and negatively. Dally Ms need extra pts. Im sure there is a flip side too, but not sure what that is, suspension maybe?

I agree with everyone else, 1 and 10 should be nearly unachievable, but 2 and 9 should be.

Not sure what Papa and Jack need to do/ can do more, in a yr we made a prelim, they made rep sides, and both got Dally M awards (a GF is it).
I’m not sure I need to bump to a 9 for Dally Ms... given the points I’ve already made, an 8 will be a very strong rating. My scoring system is based on the most objective game by game analysis as I can muster. I expect Papalii and Wighton will already be at the top of the tree.

On another point in the discussion, I think people forget when players go through a dip, mid season... if they’re playing well at the end. Ratings made at a point in time, at the end of the season, are very likely going to be subject to recency bias.


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Like I said above, you don’t need to invalidate the objectivity of your approach. You just need to scale so you use the range appropriately.

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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by greeneyed »

But I'm using my range appropriately, in my opinion. :)
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gangrenous
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by gangrenous »

Well, I rate your rating system a 6/10.

Which is actually very very bad as it turns out. Had you got 7/10 it would have been the best ratings system you could get though.
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greeneyed
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by greeneyed »

Let’s do this all over again next week, when I start the annual player reviews!
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gangrenous
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by gangrenous »

Marked it on my calendar! Wouldn’t miss it for the world
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Re: 2020 season player ratings

Post by simo »

greeneyed wrote: October 21, 2020, 8:38 pm Let’s do this all over again next week, when I start the annual player reviews!
players reviews already done by the OP. Just because theyre awful and you dont agree with them doesnt mean you can change them. put your feet up GE, its been a year.
Dont delete this GE
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