Ideas for more creativity
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Ideas for more creativity
The Roosters game was a bit of a wake up for the lack of creativity in the team.
Wighton is becoming too predictable and Williams doesn't seem to be able to get the bodies in motion in the right place. Both have been brilliant in parts this year - I'm not specificly blaming either - but there doesn't seem to be a plan B.
So how can we get more creativity into the team? Hodgson will bring some craft and control, but not everything that's lacking.
I love CNK, but his vision in attack is clearly an issue (I think his passing is fine when he can see it). Either way, I don't think he's going anywhere, but he's not the answer.
My solution would be to move Wighton to an old fashioned 13. He can be the third pivot in attack - reducing the pressure on his handling and allowing CNK to follow the ball in support.
He's big enough to take the ball into a collision - see Radley, Bateman and Murray - if needed and his explosive pace would be brilliant attacking a tired pack through the middle.
We can then have a second half, hopefully a little more creative closer to the line. There are a few off contract this year.
To me, this gives more than it takes away, whilst keeping the best players in key positions.
Any better suggestions?
Wighton is becoming too predictable and Williams doesn't seem to be able to get the bodies in motion in the right place. Both have been brilliant in parts this year - I'm not specificly blaming either - but there doesn't seem to be a plan B.
So how can we get more creativity into the team? Hodgson will bring some craft and control, but not everything that's lacking.
I love CNK, but his vision in attack is clearly an issue (I think his passing is fine when he can see it). Either way, I don't think he's going anywhere, but he's not the answer.
My solution would be to move Wighton to an old fashioned 13. He can be the third pivot in attack - reducing the pressure on his handling and allowing CNK to follow the ball in support.
He's big enough to take the ball into a collision - see Radley, Bateman and Murray - if needed and his explosive pace would be brilliant attacking a tired pack through the middle.
We can then have a second half, hopefully a little more creative closer to the line. There are a few off contract this year.
To me, this gives more than it takes away, whilst keeping the best players in key positions.
Any better suggestions?
- GreenMachine
- Jason Croker
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
When Hodgson returns, have him integrate with our halves rather than take complete control.
This means more wider passing from dummy half instead of holding onto the ball trying to draw the A and B in for a crash/ up the guts play.
Then have our forwards learn to run in pairs and trust each other for passes. That means being awake and ready for passes at the line.
The backs just need speed and some size. Whether that’s from our youth development or recruitment, it needs to happen.
Most teams would give an eye for our forward depth and halves quality. We need to cash in on that with a backline that matches.
This means more wider passing from dummy half instead of holding onto the ball trying to draw the A and B in for a crash/ up the guts play.
Then have our forwards learn to run in pairs and trust each other for passes. That means being awake and ready for passes at the line.
The backs just need speed and some size. Whether that’s from our youth development or recruitment, it needs to happen.
Most teams would give an eye for our forward depth and halves quality. We need to cash in on that with a backline that matches.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
Appreciate the thread and suggestion, but I wouldn’t be moving Wighton at this stage in his career.
I would make some tweaks to the second row, first off. CHN is a good hole runner, he runs great lines, as does Whitehead. The issue is that CHN prefers left side, but that might be a good thing as Wighton is a strong defender next to him (and, as I mentioned before we recruited him, I had my concerns about his defence). I would try a back row of CHN and Whitehead, with Bateman at lock. Bateman is great, but he can stifle attack when used wide as he isn’t a traditional back rower. His unorthodox play and footwork might also give us more in the middle where he can target slower forwards. Also - he is leaving, and we need to get those back row combinations sorted for next year and beyond. Whitehead is a good defender and will help Scott on the right side, as Bateman has done. Only problem is CHN’s fitness, but we have 3 games before the finals to give him more minutes.
I would make some tweaks to the second row, first off. CHN is a good hole runner, he runs great lines, as does Whitehead. The issue is that CHN prefers left side, but that might be a good thing as Wighton is a strong defender next to him (and, as I mentioned before we recruited him, I had my concerns about his defence). I would try a back row of CHN and Whitehead, with Bateman at lock. Bateman is great, but he can stifle attack when used wide as he isn’t a traditional back rower. His unorthodox play and footwork might also give us more in the middle where he can target slower forwards. Also - he is leaving, and we need to get those back row combinations sorted for next year and beyond. Whitehead is a good defender and will help Scott on the right side, as Bateman has done. Only problem is CHN’s fitness, but we have 3 games before the finals to give him more minutes.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
Havilli/Starling to do one on one training with Hodgson to learn the art of the crash ball
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
I love our halves as they are. Last year we would have killed for the nunber of repeat sets Williams has given us.
And Wighton is a danger. He has also laid on tries passing short, passing out the back and cut out balls. Do they need to do it more? Sure. But I wouldn't trade them.
And Wighton is a danger. He has also laid on tries passing short, passing out the back and cut out balls. Do they need to do it more? Sure. But I wouldn't trade them.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
I actually think if we had a halfways decent 3/4 line the creativity would look just fine.
Every bangs on about Melbourne only spending money on halves but look at their back 5- two with extreme top shelf pace (Paps, JAC), two absolute huge bruiser tackle busters (Olam and Vunivalu) who can crash through a line.
Roosters- higher quality but similar- huge pace in Morris and Reddy, Manu is a full package...
Ours at the moment are poor. Just because Rapa is a great bloke doesn't mean he isn't past it as a winger. Croker and Scott... no threat at all for this entire season. Rookies haven't banged the door down like some do, they've just been average so far. Shown less than even Simo in his first few games and nothing like a JAck or Cotric did debuting on the wing.
Who you're passing to does matter.
Every bangs on about Melbourne only spending money on halves but look at their back 5- two with extreme top shelf pace (Paps, JAC), two absolute huge bruiser tackle busters (Olam and Vunivalu) who can crash through a line.
Roosters- higher quality but similar- huge pace in Morris and Reddy, Manu is a full package...
Ours at the moment are poor. Just because Rapa is a great bloke doesn't mean he isn't past it as a winger. Croker and Scott... no threat at all for this entire season. Rookies haven't banged the door down like some do, they've just been average so far. Shown less than even Simo in his first few games and nothing like a JAck or Cotric did debuting on the wing.
Who you're passing to does matter.
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Agree.
Speaking of JAC. His original asking price was apparently 800k, which he has been unable to get. Amazingly, doggies will be paying more for Cotric.
I know it won't happen but potentially we could be signing JAC on the money we offered to Cotric.
Speaking of JAC. His original asking price was apparently 800k, which he has been unable to get. Amazingly, doggies will be paying more for Cotric.
I know it won't happen but potentially we could be signing JAC on the money we offered to Cotric.
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- Mal Meninga
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
We need a new attacking coach, like when Bob Turnington had the reins.
We need attacking plays and attacking structure, right now we have none of that stuff. Buying any new players won't make a lick of difference while you're not practising attacking shape and structure.
It all comes from the attacking coach, and we've been sadly missing in that department the last few seasons.
We need attacking plays and attacking structure, right now we have none of that stuff. Buying any new players won't make a lick of difference while you're not practising attacking shape and structure.
It all comes from the attacking coach, and we've been sadly missing in that department the last few seasons.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
CNK needs to learn to catch the ball properly or move to the wing. He's killing us from the back straight away. I love his passion but we need a better fullback
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- Tom Learoyd-Lahrs
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
CNK would make a beast of a centre. His game suits it, great defender. strong runner.
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- Tom Learoyd-Lahrs
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
If we come up against a top side again this season, we'll need to take more chances playing off the cuff, expansive football, IMO. Less one-out play, more offloads, more support runners, etc. If we do that, our somewhat limited backs should be able to capitalise on being less predictable and having more space available to attack.
Our 'normal' plays don't work against sides that know how to defend.
If we go into next year with a backline of Rapana, Croker, CNK, Scott and Simonsson + no changes in attacking coach, we'll be even less a threat than we have been this year, sadly.
Our 'normal' plays don't work against sides that know how to defend.
If we go into next year with a backline of Rapana, Croker, CNK, Scott and Simonsson + no changes in attacking coach, we'll be even less a threat than we have been this year, sadly.
- Mickey_Raider
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
I don't think we are going to magically become a razzle dazzle side over the next month or two with our sluggish backline.
Our best bet is to try and play a high octane game through our elite forward pack and good halves - relentless momentum, more offloads and give Wighton and Williams the licence to play direct and increase their running output.
When we beat the roosters earlier this year we did so up the middle. Yes I think we took them by surprise but it certainly was always going to be more effective than trying to carve them up through the 3/4 areas. We tried to feed our backline the other night and they closed us down easily.
Our best bet is to try and play a high octane game through our elite forward pack and good halves - relentless momentum, more offloads and give Wighton and Williams the licence to play direct and increase their running output.
When we beat the roosters earlier this year we did so up the middle. Yes I think we took them by surprise but it certainly was always going to be more effective than trying to carve them up through the 3/4 areas. We tried to feed our backline the other night and they closed us down easily.
Up The Milk
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
I like the idea of Wighton at lock. In our current setup. I'm not sure if it would work with Hodgson back in the lineup...too many chefs and all that.
That left hand side needs a better ball playing half to be effective. I understand the frustration with CNK not playing that role, but my preference would be to have Williams play a lot more on both sides of the ruck.
That left hand side needs a better ball playing half to be effective. I understand the frustration with CNK not playing that role, but my preference would be to have Williams play a lot more on both sides of the ruck.
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Please don't suggest anything that would benefit the team. That is forbidden on this forum.
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Oh god. Dead **** set. Wighton to lock????? That idea was thrown out the window 5 or 6 years ago. But hey, let's move one of the best 5/8s in the comp to lock when we have a fully international back row which is probably the best back row in the comp. Jesus **** Christ.Seiffert82 wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 12:21 pm I like the idea of Wighton at lock. In our current setup. I'm not sure if it would work with Hodgson back in the lineup...too many chefs and all that.
That left hand side needs a better ball playing half to be effective. I understand the frustration with CNK not playing that role, but my preference would be to have Williams play a lot more on both sides of the ruck.
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- Sam Backo
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
LOL. Actually before he broke his finger he had dropped about two balls since he made his debut. All of sudden after a few more drops he can't catch the ball and is killing us someone shut down this thread, or just shut down the whole forum... shut it all down!!!!!
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Rapana has been our best winger/centre all year..He has quietly been getting back to near his best.BadnMean wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 9:19 am I actually think if we had a halfways decent 3/4 line the creativity would look just fine.
Every bangs on about Melbourne only spending money on halves but look at their back 5- two with extreme top shelf pace (Paps, JAC), two absolute huge bruiser tackle busters (Olam and Vunivalu) who can crash through a line.
Roosters- higher quality but similar- huge pace in Morris and Reddy, Manu is a full package...
Ours at the moment are poor. Just because Rapa is a great bloke doesn't mean he isn't past it as a winger. Croker and Scott... no threat at all for this entire season. Rookies haven't banged the door down like some do, they've just been average so far. Shown less than even Simo in his first few games and nothing like a JAck or Cotric did debuting on the wing.
Who you're passing to does matter.
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- Jason Croker
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
I really don't understand the negativity on CNK - he had a great game against Roosters. Very consistent and was dangerous. He does have some confidence with bombs but we saw none of that v Roosters, albeit his technique of sitting down to catch was unique. He's the least of our worries. Against the Roosters, if you watch v closely, he wasn't the problem with the high balls. There were two other culprits that didn't want to go near it or catch it on the full. I mentioned this as an area of attack by the Roosters before the game, but Ricky either didn't do anything about it but even worse, put in a 2 game rookie against Manu and B Morris.
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- Mal Meninga
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Hahaha Groundskeeer laying down the smack here.
- Mickey_Raider
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
I consider CNK well down the list of problems with our team. He is a solid mid tier full back, still young and I think his ball playing is slowly improving.
Without a doubt if there is one player in the backline you wouldn't want to lose it is him. There are four players in the outside backs who are bigger issues than him at the moment (and yes that includes Cotric).
Add me to the list of people who don't get the CNK hate. Just because you aren't at Tedesco or RTS level doesn't mean you are a problem.
Without a doubt if there is one player in the backline you wouldn't want to lose it is him. There are four players in the outside backs who are bigger issues than him at the moment (and yes that includes Cotric).
Add me to the list of people who don't get the CNK hate. Just because you aren't at Tedesco or RTS level doesn't mean you are a problem.
Last edited by Mickey_Raider on September 7, 2020, 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Up The Milk
Re: Ideas for more creativity
I feel like he and the bloke who had never heard of CHN would have some interesting outputs
- Andymachine
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
CNK was great at centre in the NZ team. I also think he could be a better centre than he is a fullback but in the Raiders it depends on what else we have. Right now we need him at fullback but if we picked up a good fullback like a Matt Dufty with speed and ballplaying ability then moving CNK to centre over either of our current ones would be a good move.Groundskeeer Willie wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 12:38 pmOh Lord. I'm gonna sound like a broken record here.. but Jesus **** Christ. CNK IS A FULLBACK AND A DAMN GOOD ONE. What are you lot on??? And why aren't you sharing?
"The game owes me nothing, I owe the game everything." - Alan Tongue
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- Jason Croker
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
I should also add, Tedesco was not a great ball player 2 years ago. He only developed it half way in his first year at the Roosters. Same with Papenhuyzen - we only saw it half way through this year. I think he is a better fullback than Jack was pre-2019.
This is something that the coaching staff at the Raiders can assist him with. I'm confident he can improve; if you look at the players that have improved or developed since joining us - Dunamis, Rapa, Joey L, Starling, Havili, Sutton, Tapine, Cotric (from lower grades). We did well to identify CNK, pick him up on the cheap, and developed him to be a regular and above average fullback.
Even established regulars have improved their play - Wighton, Papa, Whitehead, Hodgson, Bateman.
This is something that the coaching staff at the Raiders can assist him with. I'm confident he can improve; if you look at the players that have improved or developed since joining us - Dunamis, Rapa, Joey L, Starling, Havili, Sutton, Tapine, Cotric (from lower grades). We did well to identify CNK, pick him up on the cheap, and developed him to be a regular and above average fullback.
Even established regulars have improved their play - Wighton, Papa, Whitehead, Hodgson, Bateman.
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Nailed it. And yet we have people on here that say Ricky can't coach All of those players must of just developed themselves with no coachingHong Kong Raider wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 1:04 pm I should also add, Tedesco was not a great ball player 2 years ago. He only developed it half way in his first year at the Roosters. Same with Papenhuyzen - we only saw it half way through this year. I think he is a better fullback than Jack was pre-2019.
This is something that the coaching staff at the Raiders can assist him with. I'm confident he can improve; if you look at the players that have improved or developed since joining us - Dunamis, Rapa, Joey L, Starling, Havili, Sutton, Tapine, Cotric (from lower grades). We did well to identify CNK, pick him up on the cheap, and developed him to be a regular and above average fullback.
Even established regulars have improved their play - Wighton, Papa, Whitehead, Hodgson, Bateman.
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- Sam Backo
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Who has never heard of CHN? I've followed him closely throughout his career.. back In the day when I got to watch a lot of juniors... always thought he would make the NRL. He has been hot and cold so far for us, but by ghee it was a thing of beauty watching him tear apart the opposition the other week, busting the line with ease and looking a threat every time he touched the ball. I can't remember who we were playing but if he produces that form on the reg we are onto a winner.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
This is a simple game. We don't need to complicate things
1. Speed
2. Bodies in motion, especially on the right
3. More second phase play, which also requires support runners
4. Creative second receiver
We don't have the speed in the squad.
We're not getting the structure right on George's side, although we're slowly shifting to give him more responsibility and allowing him to play on the other side of the ruck occasionally. When he does link up with Jack we instantly look better.
Our forwards have the ability to pop a ball (Papa, Taps, Whitehead, Horsburgh when fit), but are being pretty conservative. I don't see that natural, that to me is coached. Regardless, we also regularly don't have the support play up the middle to receive the ball.
As for second receiver, we essentially play without one. CNK is not a modern fullback at the moment. Whether people like it or not, be a simpleton and call it an agenda, but we're not getting enough out of that position for the last two points I've made. People still start clapping when a fullback manages to take bombs and clear up grubbers. The game has moved well passed that being the main parts of the job anymore.
The temporary fix is, as I believe Botman has previously alluded, is to give George more responsibility and have him play both sides. Go back and watch 2016. Two things stick out from out attack: BJ Leilua, and Jack Wighton as second receiver. Jack allows us to have our bread and butter when he's the one giving that final pass or tap on - it will give us that 1-2 tries per game, whether directly or indirectly, which is all we need for that extra advantage.
1. Speed
2. Bodies in motion, especially on the right
3. More second phase play, which also requires support runners
4. Creative second receiver
We don't have the speed in the squad.
We're not getting the structure right on George's side, although we're slowly shifting to give him more responsibility and allowing him to play on the other side of the ruck occasionally. When he does link up with Jack we instantly look better.
Our forwards have the ability to pop a ball (Papa, Taps, Whitehead, Horsburgh when fit), but are being pretty conservative. I don't see that natural, that to me is coached. Regardless, we also regularly don't have the support play up the middle to receive the ball.
As for second receiver, we essentially play without one. CNK is not a modern fullback at the moment. Whether people like it or not, be a simpleton and call it an agenda, but we're not getting enough out of that position for the last two points I've made. People still start clapping when a fullback manages to take bombs and clear up grubbers. The game has moved well passed that being the main parts of the job anymore.
The temporary fix is, as I believe Botman has previously alluded, is to give George more responsibility and have him play both sides. Go back and watch 2016. Two things stick out from out attack: BJ Leilua, and Jack Wighton as second receiver. Jack allows us to have our bread and butter when he's the one giving that final pass or tap on - it will give us that 1-2 tries per game, whether directly or indirectly, which is all we need for that extra advantage.
Last edited by afgtnk on September 7, 2020, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Sid
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
1. Crash ball on the 5th
2. ?
3. Profit
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2. ?
3. Profit
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- Seiffert82
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
Whoa there. Settle down champion.Groundskeeer Willie wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 12:36 pmOh god. Dead **** set. Wighton to lock????? That idea was thrown out the window 5 or 6 years ago. But hey, let's move one of the best 5/8s in the comp to lock when we have a fully international back row which is probably the best back row in the comp. Jesus **** Christ.Seiffert82 wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 12:21 pm I like the idea of Wighton at lock. In our current setup. I'm not sure if it would work with Hodgson back in the lineup...too many chefs and all that.
That left hand side needs a better ball playing half to be effective. I understand the frustration with CNK not playing that role, but my preference would be to have Williams play a lot more on both sides of the ruck.
Firstly, Wighton has never played lock, so I'm not sure who has thrown the idea out 5 or 6 years ago. Your posting style clearly indicates that you don't speak on behalf of the coaching staff.
In any case, my point was that Wighton might go very well at lock in a system where you don't have a dominant dummy half (like the Roosters) but you wouldn't do it with Hodgson in the team.
You OK with that petal?
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Re: Ideas for more creativity
As an aside, I have no problem with CNK continuing to develop his game at fullback. This stuff doesn't happen overnight. There have been some good glimpses there.
Fundamentally, Williams needs to be playing both sides of the ruck with CNK mostly parked on the right. Williams also needs to use more variety in his kicking game. He either seems to exclusively chip or grubber depending on the opposition, which might be the game plan, but it becomes predictable.
Bateman needs to step up and do his job and Wighton needs to stop sending Croker on suicide missions at the line.
More offloads would be a good start too. Our line breaking ability sucks right now. Our attack against the Titans was notable for the fact we had twice as many offloads in that game vs our season average.
Oh, and start the game with Havili and end it with Starling. That's a no-brainer.
Fundamentally, Williams needs to be playing both sides of the ruck with CNK mostly parked on the right. Williams also needs to use more variety in his kicking game. He either seems to exclusively chip or grubber depending on the opposition, which might be the game plan, but it becomes predictable.
Bateman needs to step up and do his job and Wighton needs to stop sending Croker on suicide missions at the line.
More offloads would be a good start too. Our line breaking ability sucks right now. Our attack against the Titans was notable for the fact we had twice as many offloads in that game vs our season average.
Oh, and start the game with Havili and end it with Starling. That's a no-brainer.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
4 line breaks in 14 games is not Rapana's best. He's playing, funnily enough, like the Rapana of late last year- all heart but body can't do it anymore.Groundskeeer Willie wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 12:44 pm
Rapana has been our best winger/centre all year..He has quietly been getting back to near his best.
It's been 18 months since we say him near his best. When you have a 30+ year old winger with a blockbusting style and haven't been near your best for almost 2 years- with no real major injuries to pin it on- you need to accept that best isn't coming back and find a better winger.
Or just keep picking guys because they are good blokes. You won't win but it'll feel good. Until you lose again.Then it sucks.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
It's not negativity, it's just considering the back 5 as a whole, if he is the FB then you NEED speed or size or tackle busting power in around the other positions, as he is not the top grade attacking FB that some others in the position are. He's all work and great defence, but not creative or a strike weapon. Mid tier.Hong Kong Raider wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 12:46 pm I really don't understand the negativity on CNK - he had a great game against Roosters. Very consistent and was dangerous. He does have some confidence with bombs but we saw none of that v Roosters, albeit his technique of sitting down to catch was unique. He's the least of our worries. Against the Roosters, if you watch v closely, he wasn't the problem with the high balls. There were two other culprits that didn't want to go near it or catch it on the full. I mentioned this as an area of attack by the Roosters before the game, but Ricky either didn't do anything about it but even worse, put in a 2 game rookie against Manu and B Morris.
If that's your FB you need some go elsewhere in that back 5. At the moment we have 4 mid size, mid to slow players with no special tackle busting ability or x factor skill in the back 5 + Cotric who has some size and above average speed and power but he's on the way out.
If you consider that a real good back 5 will have some speed to threaten, some size for rucking out, some ball play for variety/creativity and maybe even some x factor. Ours next year risks having zero of those boxes ticked. Just 5 players who are middle or low ability in every one of those attacking factors mentioned. Plodderville + a great defensive FB with mid level attack himself...
Re: Ideas for more creativity
I think we have the players to win the comp. We just dont have 18 points in us against top sides.
Short term is to play like we have been against weaker sides .. we will win.
Against the better sides chance our arm a bit more. Offloading, running new structures and precision bombs on 5th tackle to give us some hope.
Look at Tupou's try.. 50 50 chance behind a good bomb. We rely on individual brilliance to score our tries such as the Bateman.
Practice them.
Longer term we need a new attacking coach.
Short term is to play like we have been against weaker sides .. we will win.
Against the better sides chance our arm a bit more. Offloading, running new structures and precision bombs on 5th tackle to give us some hope.
Look at Tupou's try.. 50 50 chance behind a good bomb. We rely on individual brilliance to score our tries such as the Bateman.
Practice them.
Longer term we need a new attacking coach.
Re: Ideas for more creativity
You’re either having a giggle Willie, or your eyes are painted on.Groundskeeer Willie wrote: ↑September 7, 2020, 12:41 pmLOL. Actually before he broke his finger he had dropped about two balls since he made his debut. All of sudden after a few more drops he can't catch the ball and is killing us someone shut down this thread, or just shut down the whole forum... shut it all down!!!!!
CNK’s technique of trying to lay down as he’s taking a high ball - how many top current or past fullbacks have you seen do that?? It makes no sense to catch a ball that way
Re: Ideas for more creativity
This thread is nice in theory. But we all know that Rick’s conservative game plan and complete lack of attention to an attacking structure will throttle any kind of creativity these players may possess as individuals