Ryan James signs with Raiders

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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by BJ »

Wiki Special wrote:I think Ryan James has been great for us in terms of performance. But I can't argue that our squad would be much better balanced right now if we didn't have James, Sia and Lui in it and replaced them with a re-signed Cotric and two Minimum Wage forwards for depth.
By all reports James, Sia and Lui only gives you around $750k to work with. I don’t think the maths for Cotric and two minimum wage forwards works. Those minimum wage forwards are probably very crap too.

Cotric priced himself out of the team and left for the money and Sydney lifestyle.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Wiki Special »

Yeah, fair points. I like the James signing in a vaccuum, just more a Roster balance comment. Would $500K get you a Xavier Coates? I'd roll the dice if so.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by BadnMean »

Wiki Special wrote: May 2, 2021, 11:05 am Yeah, fair points. I like the James signing in a vaccuum, just more a Roster balance comment. Would $500K get you a Xavier Coates? I'd roll the dice if so.
Be interesting to see if it puts us in the conversation. I'd say that would be around the mark. Not sure it would be enough to lure him away from Brisbane and Sydney though.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Knotincelly22 »

BJ wrote: May 2, 2021, 9:51 am
Wiki Special wrote:I think Ryan James has been great for us in terms of performance. But I can't argue that our squad would be much better balanced right now if we didn't have James, Sia and Lui in it and replaced them with a re-signed Cotric and two Minimum Wage forwards for depth.
By all reports James, Sia and Lui only gives you around $750k to work with. I don’t think the maths for Cotric and two minimum wage forwards works. Those minimum wage forwards are probably very crap too.

Cotric priced himself out of the team and left for the money and Sydney lifestyle.
It's probably more the fact James was seen in some circles as putting the Raiders over the top. Whereas the correct decision was to cut the co-captain loose and keep the much younger Cotric, who coveted the centre position. Tell me the maths doesn't work now. How much is (co)capo on?
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by gangrenous »

There is no universe where that decision is a good one, and that’s just on the basis of dropping a loyal long serving captain in a high performing team. Completely ignoring the fact Cotric has failed at centre and clearly wanted Sydney and the position.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by BJ »

I agree that on reflection Cotric for Croker would have been a better retention decision on probably similar money back in mid 2020 when Cotric announced he was leaving.

But it would have been a brave announcement and it would have got some players and fans offside.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Canberra Milk »

I'm happy with keeping Croker, but a short term deal and lesser coin. No other team would have jumped on him
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Northern Raider »

BJ wrote: May 2, 2021, 9:51 am
Wiki Special wrote:I think Ryan James has been great for us in terms of performance. But I can't argue that our squad would be much better balanced right now if we didn't have James, Sia and Lui in it and replaced them with a re-signed Cotric and two Minimum Wage forwards for depth.
By all reports James, Sia and Lui only gives you around $750k to work with. I don’t think the maths for Cotric and two minimum wage forwards works. Those minimum wage forwards are probably very crap too.

Cotric priced himself out of the team and left for the money and Sydney lifestyle.
Plus recruitment and retention unfortunately is not like any Supercoach. You can’t buy and sell players purely based on a set contract value.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Knotincelly22 »

gangrenous wrote: May 2, 2021, 5:42 pm There is no universe where that decision is a good one, and that’s just on the basis of dropping a loyal long serving captain in a high performing team. Completely ignoring the fact Cotric has failed at centre and clearly wanted Sydney and the position.
I still maintain he'd be a weapon close to the line playing on the left. Jack just needs a tackle busting player he can hit with that short ball and Nick busts more tackles than my low blow himself, Draymond Green. Having the short ball option gets the winger interested and that opens up the cutout pass to the winger. And then they still have to fear Jack's running game.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by lomax »

Canberra Milk wrote: May 2, 2021, 9:13 pm I'm happy with keeping Croker, but a short term deal and lesser coin. No other team would have jumped on him
I have never heard of rival clubs chasing Croker hard with big money offers during his carer. IMO we have always paid over for him, an more so with his last deal , which is poor roster and cap management.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

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Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 7:03 am
gangrenous wrote: May 2, 2021, 5:42 pm There is no universe where that decision is a good one, and that’s just on the basis of dropping a loyal long serving captain in a high performing team. Completely ignoring the fact Cotric has failed at centre and clearly wanted Sydney and the position.
I still maintain he'd be a weapon close to the line playing on the left. Jack just needs a tackle busting player he can hit with that short ball and Nick busts more tackles than my low blow himself, Draymond Green. Having the short ball option gets the winger interested and that opens up the cutout pass to the winger. And then they still have to fear Jack's running game.
The whole "Cotric was a fail at centre" argument is bit iffy coming from Raiders fans. He's a better winger probably. But if you take Cotrics first 4 games at centre this year (before he shifted to wing) he's made as many line breaks as BOTH Raiders centres combined, busted twice as many tackles as BOTH Raiders centres combined, made as many offloads as BOTH Raiders centres combined... and he's averaging 130+ metres per game there- about 30-40 metres more than any Raiders centre.

And that's in a busted **** of a Dogs team vs the combined output of centres we regard here as having had a promising start to the year (Scott and Kris for the main part). But yeah we don't miss Cotric at all. Even if he's a better winger than a centre he'd still easily be the best winger OR centre in our team.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Botman »

It's not iffy at all, regardless of who is saying and what team they support

You're talking about tackle busts and metres gained like he didnt spend half of those games he started at centre, dropping back on 5th tackle and functionally playing a wing spot. That's where his metres and tackle breaks were largely coming from. Even when he was a centre, they had him play as much wing as they could possibly make him play without telling him "yeah i know you wanted to be a centre, but it's a no from us"

The dude was not good at centre... simple as that. He's back where he belongs now, on the wing.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Knotincelly22 »

BadnMean wrote: May 3, 2021, 8:35 am
Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 7:03 am
gangrenous wrote: May 2, 2021, 5:42 pm There is no universe where that decision is a good one, and that’s just on the basis of dropping a loyal long serving captain in a high performing team. Completely ignoring the fact Cotric has failed at centre and clearly wanted Sydney and the position.
I still maintain he'd be a weapon close to the line playing on the left. Jack just needs a tackle busting player he can hit with that short ball and Nick busts more tackles than my low blow himself, Draymond Green. Having the short ball option gets the winger interested and that opens up the cutout pass to the winger. And then they still have to fear Jack's running game.
The whole "Cotric was a fail at centre" argument is bit iffy coming from Raiders fans. He's a better winger probably. But if you take Cotrics first 4 games at centre this year (before he shifted to wing) he's made as many line breaks as BOTH Raiders centres combined, busted twice as many tackles as BOTH Raiders centres combined, made as many offloads as BOTH Raiders centres combined... and he's averaging 130+ metres per game there- about 30-40 metres more than any Raiders centre.

And that's in a busted **** of a Dogs team vs the combined output of centres we regard here as having had a promising start to the year (Scott and Kris for the main part). But yeah we don't miss Cotric at all. Even if he's a better winger than a centre he'd still easily be the best winger OR centre in our team.
I'll admit his passing wasn't that great, which is partly why he didn't shine at centre or in the ten games at fullback when Jack was suspended. However, you just really want him to catch and run close to the line which would encourage opposition wingers to jam in before he even receives the ball, leaving the Raiders winger unmarked and Jack with a target. Croker either tries to run around his opposition player and either ends up in touch, or gives the ball to the winger with no room to work. That's why Jarrod is more dangerous from further away, because he has more room and his kicking game is probably underrated.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Knotincelly22 »

Botman wrote: May 3, 2021, 10:12 am It's not iffy at all, regardless of who is saying and what team they support


The dude was not good at centre... simple as that. He's back where he belongs now, on the wing.
It's not even the point though-the whole backline is a worry and you don't let rep players walk over an extra $50k. He should've been retained and wing or centre-it doesn't matter. He'd be an asset I'd prefer him at centre over almost anyone we've seen so far this season apart from maybe Curtis. I do want to see Timoko given a run though.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by GreenMachine »

Yep...just for his tackle busts and kick returns you keep Cotric.
You should always bias towards keeping the squad young...not overpaying players that are entering/or in their 30’s.
He should never been allowed to leave without a suitable replacement...which was not forthcoming.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

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Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 11:42 am
It's not even the point though-the whole backline is a worry and you don't let rep players walk over an extra $50k. He should've been retained and wing or centre-it doesn't matter. He'd be an asset I'd prefer him at centre over almost anyone we've seen so far this season apart from maybe Curtis. I do want to see Timoko given a run though.
Cotric was not going to stay here for another 50k, and his price tag had already gone above what his worth was/is. The decision was correct imo.

And regardless, it's not why were are in this situation in the outside backs. This team with Cotric in it is in no better or worse shape than it is is in now.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Billy Walker »

Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 11:42 am
Botman wrote: May 3, 2021, 10:12 am It's not iffy at all, regardless of who is saying and what team they support


The dude was not good at centre... simple as that. He's back where he belongs now, on the wing.
It's not even the point though-the whole backline is a worry and you don't let rep players walk over an extra $50k. He should've been retained and wing or centre-it doesn't matter. He'd be an asset I'd prefer him at centre over almost anyone we've seen so far this season apart from maybe Curtis. I do want to see Timoko given a run though.
I was keen to see Cotric given a run at centre as well, but I see the doggies moved him back to wing on the weekend. If he can’t cut it at centre for the hot trash that is the doggies I’m happy to concede he wasn’t going to be our saviour. Also I don’t think you free up much cap space to refresh your squad if you only ever move on players at the end of careers - sometimes you need to be bold and let go some talent. Liam Knight and Jack Murchie are both good young prospects but we survived nicely with forward stocks I think.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Knotincelly22 »

Botman wrote: May 3, 2021, 12:14 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 11:42 am
It's not even the point though-the whole backline is a worry and you don't let rep players walk over an extra $50k. He should've been retained and wing or centre-it doesn't matter. He'd be an asset I'd prefer him at centre over almost anyone we've seen so far this season apart from maybe Curtis. I do want to see Timoko given a run though.
Cotric was not going to stay here for another 50k, and his price tag had already gone above what his worth was/is. The decision was correct imo.

And regardless, it's not why were are in this situation in the outside backs. This team with Cotric in it is in no better or worse shape than it is is in now.
We could've signed Cotric for the same coin as we're allegedly paying Croker to do not much more than kick goals. And even on that score the marginal difference between George Williams' goal kicking makes it impossible to justify. There should always have been a back up kicker anyway(Parra did exactly this with Moses/Gutho), or is that a bit like China practicing war games near Taiwan? We cut Joey loose to sign Curtis Scott. And now we have no strike power in the backline. Who could have possibly seen that happening?
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

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Cotric got $650k a season at the Bulldogs. $200k more than we offered and probably more than he’s worth.

If we caved in, imagine the message that sends to our teams player managers.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Knotincelly22 »

BJ wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:02 pm Cotric got $650k a season at the Bulldogs. $200k more than we offered and probably more than he’s worth.

If we caved in, imagine the message that sends to our teams player managers.
But paying the captain way above his market value-and as the only one bidding? That ain't it. We've seen only injury keeps him out of the side. How's the optics on that?
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

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Knotincelly22 wrote:
BJ wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:02 pm Cotric got $650k a season at the Bulldogs. $200k more than we offered and probably more than he’s worth.

If we caved in, imagine the message that sends to our teams player managers.
But paying the captain way above his market value-and as the only one bidding? That ain't it. We've seen only injury keeps him out of the side. How's the optics on that?
That’s true too I’m afraid.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Botman »

Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:02 pm
Botman wrote: May 3, 2021, 12:14 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 11:42 am
It's not even the point though-the whole backline is a worry and you don't let rep players walk over an extra $50k. He should've been retained and wing or centre-it doesn't matter. He'd be an asset I'd prefer him at centre over almost anyone we've seen so far this season apart from maybe Curtis. I do want to see Timoko given a run though.
Cotric was not going to stay here for another 50k, and his price tag had already gone above what his worth was/is. The decision was correct imo.

And regardless, it's not why were are in this situation in the outside backs. This team with Cotric in it is in no better or worse shape than it is is in now.
We could've signed Cotric for the same coin as we're allegedly paying Croker to do not much more than kick goals. And even on that score the marginal difference between George Williams' goal kicking makes it impossible to justify. There should always have been a back up kicker anyway(Parra did exactly this with Moses/Gutho), or is that a bit like China practicing war games near Taiwan? We cut Joey loose to sign Curtis Scott. And now we have no strike power in the backline. Who could have possibly seen that happening?
Im not really interested in going through that with most posters on this site.
My post to you was specific to the points of Cotric wasnt staying here for another 50k or 100k, he wanted more money here to leverage the sydney clubs because that's where he wanted to be at this point in his life.

And that with or without Cotric, be that the expense of Croker, Scott, James, Papalii, Stuart, Clyde, Daley, Meninga or De la Cruz. We're in the same place right now. Cotric doesnt solve any of the core problems plaguing the 2021 Raiders
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Billy Walker »

Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:06 pm
BJ wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:02 pm Cotric got $650k a season at the Bulldogs. $200k more than we offered and probably more than he’s worth.

If we caved in, imagine the message that sends to our teams player managers.
But paying the captain way above his market value-and as the only one bidding? That ain't it. We've seen only injury keeps him out of the side. How's the optics on that?
Terrible! Made the right call with Cotric and an insanely wrong call with Croker. I suspect there is more contestable argument about a decision like that in this forum than there would be from the coach, CEO and board that have such a close history and same mindset on things.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:12 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:02 pm
Botman wrote: May 3, 2021, 12:14 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 11:42 am
It's not even the point though-the whole backline is a worry and you don't let rep players walk over an extra $50k. He should've been retained and wing or centre-it doesn't matter. He'd be an asset I'd prefer him at centre over almost anyone we've seen so far this season apart from maybe Curtis. I do want to see Timoko given a run though.
Cotric was not going to stay here for another 50k, and his price tag had already gone above what his worth was/is. The decision was correct imo.

And regardless, it's not why were are in this situation in the outside backs. This team with Cotric in it is in no better or worse shape than it is is in now.
We could've signed Cotric for the same coin as we're allegedly paying Croker to do not much more than kick goals. And even on that score the marginal difference between George Williams' goal kicking makes it impossible to justify. There should always have been a back up kicker anyway(Parra did exactly this with Moses/Gutho), or is that a bit like China practicing war games near Taiwan? We cut Joey loose to sign Curtis Scott. And now we have no strike power in the backline. Who could have possibly seen that happening?
Im not really interested in going through that with most posters on this site.
My post to you was specific to the points of Cotric wasnt staying here for another 50k or 100k, he wanted more money here to leverage the sydney clubs because that's where he wanted to be at this point in his life.

And that with or without Cotric, be that the expense of Croker, Scott, James, Papalii, Stuart, Clyde, Daley, Meninga or De la Cruz. We're in the same place right now. Cotric doesnt solve any of the core problems plaguing the 2021 Raiders
I was with you right up to the point you mentioned Gerry De la Cruz.... Love to see Gerry in the 2021 raiders 😆
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Pete Cash »

I feel the Cotric question is moot. I believe he wanted to go to the roosters and play with his horse faced mate. The roosters were like crikey what you are asking for is a bit much and the negotiations didnt get anywhere. At that point he had mentally decided he wanted to leave and that can be a hard mentality to change.

There are so many Sydney clubs that eventually one was going to give him what he wanted (big money to live in Sydney)

Croker is neither here nor there. Even if I think the Croker contract isn't especially good business.

But again centre isn't an especially important position. Its all part of a bigger picture of us being slow as heck in the backline. I don't think giving Crokers money to Cotric changes anything
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by yurithe1 »

BadnMean wrote: May 2, 2021, 9:14 am
Wiki Special wrote: May 2, 2021, 8:47 am I think Ryan James has been great for us in terms of performance. But I can't argue that our squad would be much better balanced right now if we didn't have James, Sia and Lui in it and replaced them with a re-signed Cotric and two Minimum Wage forwards for depth.
Probably true. But those choices have been made already.

And if I was cutting middles this season James would not be cut based on performance. And I reckon we'll get good value out of him next season too.

He'd be one of our best 4 middles so far - Papa, Tapine, Sutton, James- everyone else is surplus or easily replaceable based on what they've done so far.
Agreed. For the life of me, I can't understand why he got so little game time against the Rabbitohs.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by GreenMachine »

Knotincelly22 wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:06 pm
BJ wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:02 pm Cotric got $650k a season at the Bulldogs. $200k more than we offered and probably more than he’s worth.

If we caved in, imagine the message that sends to our teams player managers.
But paying the captain way above his market value-and as the only one bidding? That ain't it. We've seen only injury keeps him out of the side. How's the optics on that?
Nailed it.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by GreenMachine »

Pete Cash wrote: May 3, 2021, 1:40 pm I feel the Cotric question is moot. I believe he wanted to go to the roosters and play with his horse faced mate. The roosters were like crikey what you are asking for is a bit much and the negotiations didnt get anywhere. At that point he had mentally decided he wanted to leave and that can be a hard mentality to change.

There are so many Sydney clubs that eventually one was going to give him what he wanted (big money to live in Sydney)

Croker is neither here nor there. Even if I think the Croker contract isn't especially good business.

But again centre isn't an especially important position. Its all part of a bigger picture of us being slow as heck in the backline. I don't think giving Crokers money to Cotric changes anything
Cotric is far better suited to this modern game than Croker...
I would have had less of an issue letting Cotric walk if we didn't overpay for Croker AND found a suitable replacement...
Instead were left with a bottom 8 backline from 1 to 5 in an era where those positions are crucial for starting your sets and taking pressure off your forwards.
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Pete Cash »

All things being equal of course I would rather have Cotric over Croker. I just

a) don't think that was feasible because Cotric had decided he wanted to go party it up in Sydney with Tedesco
b) don't think it would be a magical solution

And yes the Croker contract is a massive worry. I think that is largely independent of Cotric though
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Re: Ryan James signs with Raiders

Post by Knotincelly22 »

Would they have let Wighton walk if his manager decided it was a million a year or bust? Wighton, Bateman and Cotric were the three key re-signings and Jack essentially took less than he probably could've demanded. The other two wanted more than the Raiders brass were willing to accept.
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