Papalii says family reasons behind flu injection stance

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bonehead
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by bonehead »

3yrs ago I got influenza A, was preferring to die for 4 days then bounced up for 3 days felt great then back in bed for 3 days. The cough lasted 4 months, it was shocking.
I'm getting the flu shot every year I don't care I'm not going through that again if it's avoidable

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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by -PJ- »

I've been getting it through work for about 3yrs now..free.

Doesn't stop me from ringing in sick though..cough.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Northern Raider »

Dr Zaius wrote: May 8, 2020, 8:39 pm
Neeeegz wrote:Flu vaccinations haven't been effective for the last 3 years, why would they be now ?
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Pilz
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Post by Pilz »

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/e ... tudies.htm

So, not completely ineffective, but hardly brilliant either.

What surprises me about most of the comments above is that people seem so 'black and white I'm right' on this. There doesn't appear to be any room for shades of grey.

Good luck to you if you ever try to study this subject. You'll find that both sides routinely lie and both sides will come at you with a zealous fervour to convert you to the righteous (i.e. their) side using very little fact or logic but a great deal of posturing and emotion. Plenty of examples above.

Anyway, there are some figures for you. Bear in mind these are American results. I expect Australian results differ slightly, but our Department of Health doesn't appear to publish vaccine effectiveness results by year.
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Post by Dusty »

There a choices in all walks of life. As far as I’m concerned it’s the players choice but if they don’t want to get the jab they should lose pay... See how the feelings and beliefs work then


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2020: 1. Nicol-Klokstad 2. Cotric 3. Croker (c) 4 Leilua 5. Scott 6. Wighton 7. G. Williams 8. Papalii 9. Hodgson (c) 10. Sutton 11. J. Bateman 12. Whitehead 13. Tapine ----
14. Simmonson 15. Soliola 16. Guler 17. Horsburgh
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by edwahu »

Pilz wrote: May 8, 2020, 10:20 pm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/e ... tudies.htm

So, not completely ineffective, but hardly brilliant either.

What surprises me about most of the comments above is that people seem so 'black and white I'm right' on this. There doesn't appear to be any room for shades of grey.

Good luck to you if you ever try to study this subject. You'll find that both sides routinely lie and both sides will come at you with a zealous fervour to convert you to the righteous (i.e. their) side using very little fact or logic but a great deal of posturing and emotion. Plenty of examples above.

Anyway, there are some figures for you. Bear in mind these are American results. I expect Australian results differ slightly, but our Department of Health doesn't appear to publish vaccine effectiveness results by year.
It does but last year's final number is pending as I imagine they are busy with other things.

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/mai ... lucurr.htm

Between 40-60% in 2019
68% in 2018
33% in 2017

This really isn't a debate. There is no grey area. The facts are well established at this point.

I mean if there is a debate who do you think the two sides are?
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Boomercm »

edwahu wrote: May 9, 2020, 4:03 am
Pilz wrote: May 8, 2020, 10:20 pm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/e ... tudies.htm

So, not completely ineffective, but hardly brilliant either.

What surprises me about most of the comments above is that people seem so 'black and white I'm right' on this. There doesn't appear to be any room for shades of grey.

Good luck to you if you ever try to study this subject. You'll find that both sides routinely lie and both sides will come at you with a zealous fervour to convert you to the righteous (i.e. their) side using very little fact or logic but a great deal of posturing and emotion. Plenty of examples above.

Anyway, there are some figures for you. Bear in mind these are American results. I expect Australian results differ slightly, but our Department of Health doesn't appear to publish vaccine effectiveness results by year.
It does but last year's final number is pending as I imagine they are busy with other things.

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/mai ... lucurr.htm

Between 40-60% in 2019
68% in 2018
33% in 2017

This really isn't a debate. There is no grey area. The facts are well established at this point.

I mean if there is a debate who do you think the two sides are?
There is quite a debate actually re flu vaccines (different for some others). I know SMO Heads of Department who refuse the flu vaccine based on their belief in its lack of effectiveness. And there is empirical support for that position. Cochrane reviews are an excellent and independent form of research on most thing medical. This is quite a good read below. The last three paragraphs of this are quite damning.

https://community.cochrane.org/news/why ... stabilised

All that said. The league players should have just taken the friggin shot. It is extremely unlikely to do harm, and some small chance of doing some good. Them getting the jab in this climate was a political issue more than a scientific one. And the political consequences of not getting it were huge.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Botman »

Pilz wrote: May 8, 2020, 10:20 pmWhat surprises me about most of the comments above is that people seem so 'black and white I'm right' on this. There doesn't appear to be any room for shades of grey
Science isn’t interested in shades of grey or emotion or anything else
It’s about evidence and facts. On that front there is no vaccination debate
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Neeeegz »

Northern Raider wrote: May 8, 2020, 9:50 pm
Dr Zaius wrote: May 8, 2020, 8:39 pm
Neeeegz wrote:Flu vaccinations haven't been effective for the last 3 years, why would they be now ?
Reference please
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Boomercm »

Botman wrote: May 9, 2020, 8:16 am
Pilz wrote: May 8, 2020, 10:20 pmWhat surprises me about most of the comments above is that people seem so 'black and white I'm right' on this. There doesn't appear to be any room for shades of grey
Science isn’t interested in shades of grey or emotion or anything else
It’s about evidence and facts. On that front there is no vaccination debate
This is a furphy that has been spat out by the medical profession to combat anti-vaxxers. You can say equivocally that vaccines don't cause autism. This is settled. We can also point to history and show the huge benefits of many vaccines.

But that doesn't mean the science is settled for all vaccines. Especially the flu vaccine. Even the 40-60% effectiveness stats you see for flu vaccines are laboratory trials that assess whether someone develops anti-bodies for a particular strain. There is no data to suggest that this correlates with better outcomes for people that get the flu vaccine vs. those that don't. There are even some studies that suggest getting the flu vaccine makes you slightly more susceptible to other respiratory tract infections. Read the Cochrane review link I posted above.

And if you want to read about a recent vaccine that had to be recalled because the vaccine really wasn't safe, do some reading on Rotavirus.

The problem with this issue is that both of these statements are true. (1) On the whole, vaccines have been overwhelming good for humanity (2) pharma profits hugely from them, and that creates a massive motivation to skew science in a particular direction.

The world is not black and white, unfortunately.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by edwahu »

Boomercm wrote: May 9, 2020, 7:17 am
edwahu wrote: May 9, 2020, 4:03 am
Pilz wrote: May 8, 2020, 10:20 pm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/e ... tudies.htm

So, not completely ineffective, but hardly brilliant either.

What surprises me about most of the comments above is that people seem so 'black and white I'm right' on this. There doesn't appear to be any room for shades of grey.

Good luck to you if you ever try to study this subject. You'll find that both sides routinely lie and both sides will come at you with a zealous fervour to convert you to the righteous (i.e. their) side using very little fact or logic but a great deal of posturing and emotion. Plenty of examples above.

Anyway, there are some figures for you. Bear in mind these are American results. I expect Australian results differ slightly, but our Department of Health doesn't appear to publish vaccine effectiveness results by year.
It does but last year's final number is pending as I imagine they are busy with other things.

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/mai ... lucurr.htm

Between 40-60% in 2019
68% in 2018
33% in 2017

This really isn't a debate. There is no grey area. The facts are well established at this point.

I mean if there is a debate who do you think the two sides are?
There is quite a debate actually re flu vaccines (different for some others). I know SMO Heads of Department who refuse the flu vaccine based on their belief in its lack of effectiveness. And there is empirical support for that position. Cochrane reviews are an excellent and independent form of research on most thing medical. This is quite a good read below. The last three paragraphs of this are quite damning.

https://community.cochrane.org/news/why ... stabilised

All that said. The league players should have just taken the friggin shot. It is extremely unlikely to do harm, and some small chance of doing some good. Them getting the jab in this climate was a political issue more than a scientific one. And the political consequences of not getting it were huge.
Interesting, although I note the Cochrane report itself concludes roughly the same 60%. Like you said though, it is harmless and does provide a benefit, so ultimately the choice to not take it is one of personal convenience over harm minimisation.

Extend the debate out to vaccination as a whole and it becomes a matter of wilful ignorance.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by greeneyed »

We’ve a doctor in the house. I’ll take notice of him...

I have been surprised by how anti-vaxers have come out of the woodwork on our Facebook pages and groups... and I just shake my head at some of the arguments and links they post. Sadly there seem to be hordes of people who are being taken advantage of by various groups on Facebook. Some come in the guise of religion.

Not a comment on the preceding discussion...
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Neeeegz »

GE,
No one is disputing tried and proven vaccines, e.g. polio, measles etc..
They are disputing flu shots that are an educated guess as to what strains people may or may not be exposed to.
And over the last 3 years at least, the authorities have got it wrong by buying cheap ineffective flu shots.
That's the issue.
Not some tin foil hat crazy cat person living in their mothers basement.
It's ok for people to think for themselves and make educated decisions on what goes into their bodies.
Some people do have reactions to these cheap mass produced "vaccines" or placebos
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Northern Raider »

Neeeegz wrote: May 9, 2020, 8:22 am
Northern Raider wrote: May 8, 2020, 9:50 pm
Dr Zaius wrote: May 8, 2020, 8:39 pm
Neeeegz wrote:Flu vaccinations haven't been effective for the last 3 years, why would they be now ?
Reference please
Facebook
Personal experience from family members and friends. **** me there are some condescending leftard ****wits on this page
So your drawing conclusion on the total effectiveness of a vaccination over and extended period based on a couple of personal experiences.

I'll agree with you about there being ****wits in this page.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Neeeegz »

Northern Raider wrote: May 9, 2020, 10:06 am
Neeeegz wrote: May 9, 2020, 8:22 am
Northern Raider wrote: May 8, 2020, 9:50 pm
Dr Zaius wrote: May 8, 2020, 8:39 pm
Neeeegz wrote:Flu vaccinations haven't been effective for the last 3 years, why would they be now ?
Reference please
Facebook
Personal experience from family members and friends. **** me there are some condescending leftard ****wits on this page
So your drawing conclusion on the total effectiveness of a vaccination over and extended period based on a couple of personal experiences.

I'll agree with you about there being ****wits in this page.
You accused me of getting information off Facebook, I replied with personal experience.. And you want to call me a **** wit ? I've seen enough of your dribble on this forum over the last few years to know who the ****wit is... it seems like you all stick in your own groups too.
Public servants probably, getting paid by people like me for doing **** all and knowing **** all.
Anyway, I'm not arguing with an idiot like you, you'll beat me with experience...
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Northern Raider »

Neeeegz wrote: May 9, 2020, 10:19 am
Northern Raider wrote: May 9, 2020, 10:06 am
Neeeegz wrote: May 9, 2020, 8:22 am
Northern Raider wrote: May 8, 2020, 9:50 pm
Dr Zaius wrote: May 8, 2020, 8:39 pm Reference please
Facebook
Personal experience from family members and friends. **** me there are some condescending leftard ****wits on this page
So your drawing conclusion on the total effectiveness of a vaccination over and extended period based on a couple of personal experiences.

I'll agree with you about there being ****wits in this page.
You accused me of getting information off Facebook, I replied with personal experience.. And you want to call me a **** wit ? I've seen enough of your dribble on this forum over the last few years to know who the ****wit is... it seems like you all stick in your own groups too.
Public servants probably, getting paid by people like me for doing **** all and knowing **** all.
Anyway, I'm not arguing with an idiot like you, you'll beat me with experience...
Didn't call you a ****wit. Just agreed with you there were ****wits in this page. You're the one who's now descended into abuse instead of arguing the issue.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Boomercm »

greeneyed wrote: May 9, 2020, 9:07 am We’ve a doctor in the house. I’ll take notice of him...

I have been surprised by how anti-vaxers have come out of the woodwork on our Facebook pages and groups... and I just shake my head at some of the arguments and links they post. Sadly there seem to be hordes of people who are being taken advantage of by various groups on Facebook. Some come in the guise of religion.

Not a comment on the preceding discussion...
I've a PhD focused on statistical modelling of cognitive processes. I'm better qualified than most MD's to review research. It is a misnomer that they are particularly well trained in research and statistics. That actually creates an issue given the level of trust placed in their opinion on these issues, because their training is not commensurate with their influence. No offense to our resident Dr who I am sure understands the human body and biology much better than I.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by greeneyed »

greeneyed wrote: May 9, 2020, 9:07 am
Not a comment on the preceding discussion...
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Dusty »

So what is the current status of this situation?
2020: 1. Nicol-Klokstad 2. Cotric 3. Croker (c) 4 Leilua 5. Scott 6. Wighton 7. G. Williams 8. Papalii 9. Hodgson (c) 10. Sutton 11. J. Bateman 12. Whitehead 13. Tapine ----
14. Simmonson 15. Soliola 16. Guler 17. Horsburgh
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by edwahu »

Dusty wrote: May 9, 2020, 11:24 am So what is the current status of this situation?
Our guys can play. QLD players can't. No idea if travel to QLD impacts it.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by -PJ- »

I heard today..as it stands..our 3 amigos can't travel to OR play in Qld.

Is that correct ?
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Post by Dusty »

Thanks


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2020: 1. Nicol-Klokstad 2. Cotric 3. Croker (c) 4 Leilua 5. Scott 6. Wighton 7. G. Williams 8. Papalii 9. Hodgson (c) 10. Sutton 11. J. Bateman 12. Whitehead 13. Tapine ----
14. Simmonson 15. Soliola 16. Guler 17. Horsburgh
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by IBG »

Just heard an interview on Triple M with Stephen Kearney.

All of the Warriors players had to have the flu vaccination before getting on the plane to come to Australia.

Most of their team is made up of Polynesian players, but none of them kicked up a fuss and just got it done for the sake of the competition.

Considering what they've done and sacrificed to get the competition back on track, not to mention leaving all their families behind, our trio has no frigging argument whatsoever.

Pull your heads in and get the damn vaccine.
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NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by BJ »

Yep. Just get a flu shot ASAP and move on.

If any of the three have had a painkiller or other injection in the last year they don’t have a self imposed ethical leg to stand on.
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by gerg »

I don't normally get the flu shot because I never actually get the flu. Common cold yes, but I can't even remember the last time I got the flu. I did get the flu shot when my wife was pregnant, because it was the right thing to do - for her and our child.

My mum is classified in the vulnerable category and my sister is a nurse, so also in a vulnerable position. How could I look either of them in the eye and say I couldn't be **** getting a flu shot because I don't need it? We often make decisions for the benefit of those around us, more than for ourselves. If it means I might get the sniffles for a few days after the shot, big **** deal.

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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Botman »

IBG wrote: May 9, 2020, 12:36 pm Just heard an interview on Triple M with Stephen Kearney.

All of the Warriors players had to have the flu vaccination before getting on the plane to come to Australia.

Most of their team is made up of Polynesian players, but none of them kicked up a fuss and just got it done for the sake of the competition.

Considering what they've done and sacrificed to get the competition back on track, not to mention leaving all their families behind, our trio has no frigging argument whatsoever.

Pull your heads in and get the damn vaccine.
All that team has done since this started is bend over backwards and do what ever has been required of them to continue the competition for the good of the game and the clubs and players who rely on its income

They’re playing football so you can’t really go and call them heroes, but the RL community should never forget what this warriors team has been willing to do for the game we love
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by gerg »

Botman wrote:
IBG wrote: May 9, 2020, 12:36 pm Just heard an interview on Triple M with Stephen Kearney.

All of the Warriors players had to have the flu vaccination before getting on the plane to come to Australia.

Most of their team is made up of Polynesian players, but none of them kicked up a fuss and just got it done for the sake of the competition.

Considering what they've done and sacrificed to get the competition back on track, not to mention leaving all their families behind, our trio has no frigging argument whatsoever.

Pull your heads in and get the damn vaccine.
All that team has done since this started is bend over backwards and do what ever has been required of them to continue the competition for the good of the game and the clubs and players who rely on its income

They’re playing football so you can’t really go and call them heroes, but the RL community should never forget what this warriors team has been willing to do for the game we love
I don't think I'm alone to say that if they go close this year I'll be cheering for them - unless playing our boys. Unfortunately it's hard to see them doing well in their current situation and club setup.

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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Bennyinthewest »

Yeah that's what the flu does! Imagine if you caught corona then....You could have died.......

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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Dr Zaius »

Sorry guys, this is a fairly long post which takes you on a convoluted journey culminating in my thoughts on this matter. Not all of you will agree with me, we're all entitled to our opinions. I don't think that I've got too much more to say on the topic.


I think that most people acknowledge that there are shades of grey when it comes to the Influenza Vaccine. What is black and white is what the expectations are for these players to resume training and playing (all though that seems to be becoming greyer by the day), and the childhood immunisation schedule, which is a separate but interlinked topic.

No one is claiming that the Influenza Vaccine is an awesome vaccine. It's just not. As mentioned by others, the effectiveness varies from season to season, and in those studies linked in a previous post from 19 to 60% effective, mostly 40-50%. That previous link did not define what effective is - i.e. is effective that you don't get it, or if someone gets it and has mild disease, is that effective? Although I'm a sook who doesn't like needles, I get the fluvax every year. I can't afford to not be able to go to work, and I owe it to my patients to do everything that I can to protect them from influenza. Despite being up close and personal with people that have influenza every year, not always with adequate PPE (I'm being much more careful at the moment), I've come down with influenza twice in my life. Once when I was a student, and once two years ago. The one two years ago was in December, having had the jab in April. I felt more unwell than I usually would with a cold so got swabbed and had flu B. I wasn't too bad though and felt fine in 48 hours, ran a 30km race that weekend in 30C heat. Compare and contrast to 20 years earlier when as a student I got it (no fluvax), I had two weeks in bed thinking that I was going to die. All anecdotes of course, but the fluvax seems to have held me in good stead.

Serious side effects from influenza vaccination are rare. Your immune system communicates through release of chemicals from white blood cells called cytokines. Cytokines ramp up your immune response. They are responsible for some of the symptoms that you feel when unwell - fevers, achey, some localised pain and swelling. You cannot get influenza from the fluvax. The fluvax contains pieces of viral particles called antigens, which stimulate an immune response. It does not contain the virus. Saying that you can get influenza from the vaccine is saying that you can become a cow from eating steak. It is just not possible. What does happen however is that your white blood cells release cytokines (which is a good thing), which may make you feel feverish, achey, or give some localised pain and swelling. These are the main side effects of the influenza vaccine, occur in up to 10% of people and generally subside within 24-48 hours. More serious side effects are extremely rare. Some influenza vaccines in the 70s were thought to be associated with Guillian Barre syndrome, so anyone who has had GBS should not get it, or seek expert advice. Anaphylaxis occurs in less than 1 in 1 million cases, but vaccination should always be done with adrenaline available. It is a very safe vaccine, just not a very effective one.

Some people complain that they got the flu from the vaccine. As mentioned above, that may be a cytokine response. Last week I was rung by a family who had sore throat, runny nose, high fevers and shakes within a few days of their jab. I had them swabbed and they had RSV (a common virus). If enough people get jabbed, some of those people will have a temporal association between the jab and acquiring a virus. Perhaps they got this virus in the waiting room at the doctors.

There are reasons the influenza vaccine is less than ideally effective. Chief among those is that its a best guess every year. The antigens put in the vaccine are specific to the strain of influenza it covers. Every year, some months out from flu season, a guess needs to be made about what strains will hit our shores. The guess is not always right. The holy grail of influenza vaccines is the universal influenza vaccine that covers all strains and give lasting immunity.

In summary, the influenza vaccine is a less than ideally effective, but safe vaccine that can make you feel off for 24-48 hours. I understand why community members elect not to have it, but in high risk areas its reasonable to expect that having it annually is a requirement to work in those areas. Its about harm minimisation, and this is the best we have got.


The Childhood Immunisation Schedule is a different matter. I'm a Paediatrician. Part of my job is looking after children who are sick with vaccine preventable diseases. They are thankfully infrequent in Australia these days. I have seen two cases of measles. I have never seen mumps, polio, diptheria, Hepatitis B (in a child) or tetanus. In my career the chickenpox, pneumococcal, meningococcal and rotavirus vaccines have been introduced. I saw plenty of complications of chickenpox early in my career - usually deep Group A Strep secondary infections, and once a child with a stroke. I don't think I've seen a chickenpox complication for over 10 years. We used to get a few kids a week with pneumococcal pneumonia. They still happen but far less frequently. I haven't seen a kid with pneumococcal meningitis for years. I think early in my career I would have seen a kid with meningococcal disease a couple of times a year. I haven't seen one for years. The kids ward used to fill up with rotavirus in Spring. I might see half a dozen cases a year these days (if that). I once spoke to a very senior (somewhat elderly) paediatrician about Haemophillus Influenzae Type B (Hib), a bacteria which causes epiglottis (where your epiglottis swells up, closing off your airway and you die), and Hib meningitis. He told me that they would see one kid per week with Hib meningitis and one kid a month with epiglottis, then when the vaccine came in during the 1990s it disappeared. I have never seen either. These are just anecdotes, and should not be relied upon. But the data is readily available (CDC, Australian Immunisation Handbook) and supports exactly what I am saying. Immunisations work, have saved millions of lives and even more millions from lifelong disability.

The vaccination causes autism myth started with a publication in the Lancet by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. In this study he described a colitis (bowel inflammation) caused by the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine in children with autism, and from that made an astounding leap to the conclusion that vaccinations cause autism. The publication received far more attention in the mainstream press than it should have, and vaccination rates dropped. There were numerous problems with the study. The children had been recruited through a law firm intent on suing the vaccine manufacturer. Much of the information in the study, including the medical histories of the children were falsified, and no one ever has been able to replicate his findings of the described colitis. The coauthors distanced themselves from Wakefield, and the Lancet rescinded the publication. It was subsequently found that Wakefield had a patent on a Measles only vaccine (no Mumps Rubella). He has been deregistered and disgraced and is held up as a mater by the antivax community. They see this as the medical community pharmaceutical company covering its ****. The rotavirus vaccine drama would suggest the opposite. As Boomercm eluded to, there was an issue with the first (not the current) rotavirus vaccine. After it was rolled out, post-marketing surveillance detected higher rates of intussusception (a bowel condition that mostly only happens in infants). The vaccine was quickly scrapped and (several years later) a new one developed. Antivaxxers love to hold this up as proof positive of the harm of vaccinations, where as in reality its proof positive that post marketing surveillance works, and contradicts their belief that medical community and pharmaceutical industry are more intent on covering their ****. Finally, population wide studies in Denmark and Taiwan involving hundreds of thousands of children, comparing those that are immunised against those that are not have found no difference in the rates of autism. Vaccination does not cause autism. Autism is genetic. I have diagnosed and look after many children with autism. Many of them are not vaccinated. They are still autistic.

Just to touch on a couple of issues Boomercm made. He is absolutely right, while some medical doctors are expert researchers, most are not. We study Evidence Based Medicine throughout medical school, and most of us are expected to further this study and produce some research during our specialty training, but we are far from pros at it. I would say I'm reasonable at spotting a good study from a bad study, picking a few holes, and while I am far better at this than the average person, the finer details and why one good study is better than another might not occur to me. This is why we rely on Clinical Practice Guidelines written by those who are well versed in research, and expert on the subject matter. A good doctor knows his or her limits. Knowing what you don't know is far more important than knowing what you do know. This is one of the reasons I get so riled up by antivaxxers decreeing "do your own research". The thought that dropping out of school and spending a few hours on an antivaxxer blog equates to completing an undergraduate degree, PhD, and several years of post doctoral research on a very specific area is incredulous. Finally I disagree with pharmaceutical companies making riches out of vaccines. I'm no lover of big pharma, and they make some cash out of this no doubt. But in reality vaccine research is expensive, production is expensive, storage and transport is expensive, and most people only get most vaccines a couple of times in their lifetime. They are the least lucrative of the products made by Big Pharma, and make up only 3-4% of their profits.

I absolutely detest antivaxxers. I'm not talking about your mums and dads who are a bit anxious and hesitant, came across an antivax website and got spooked. I'm talking about your dyed in the wool, agenda driven, conspiracy theory spouting, rapid antivaxxer. The type that influence the anxious/hesitant mums and dads not to get their child immunised. The Taylor Wintersteins, Meryl Doreys and Robert F Kennedy Jrs of the world. A few years ago two babies in Samoa died soon after receiving the MMR vaccine. The immunisation program was (rightly) suspended until the cause was found. The cause was that the two nurses administering the vaccine had accidentally reconstituted the vaccine with a muscle paralysing agent instead of water. They are serving time in gaol for manslaughter. This was never effectively communicated to the Samoan public and the community understandably became scared of immunising their children. Taylor Winterstein and Robert F Kennedy Jr seized upon this opportunity and traveled to Samoa to spread their antivaxx rhetoric. The vaccination rate dropped to 34%. Last year a measles outbreak occurred in Samoa with around 5,500 cases (remember I have seen 2 cases in a 15 year career). 79 people died, most of them children under 4 years of age. 79 people died from a completely preventable disease. There was no inward reflection from Taylor Winterstein or RFK Jr. Instead they doubled down on the rhetoric and blamed the doctors and nurses for the deaths. I studied for 16 years to become a paediatrician. I was up at 4am resuscitating a baby on Thursday morning. I work really, really long hours. My days are busy, high pressure and stressful. Despite all of that, its an awesome job and I can't imagine doing anything else. I've dedicated my entire adult life to helping children and their families. These people accuse me of being in on some sort of conspiracy. They accuse me of willfully harming children for some alleged big pharma pay off. They say that after years and years of study I don't know what I am talking about, that they know better because they watched a You Tube video. These people are some of the worst creatures on the planet.

So what does this have to do with the NRL and the Raiders? The Federal and State Governments have given the NRL some extraordinary allowances. We are being told to work from home, to stand 1.5m apart and not to visit our elderly relatives, yet a professional contact sport has been given the green light to resume. In order to resume the competition, the NRL had to minimise the harm that this might present to the community. It was agreed upon that the players would be asked to get the influenza vaccine presumably to minimise the spread of influenza in the community (using these players as vectors) as we would be wise to avoid an influenza epidemic during a Covid pandemic. The additional pay off would be a reduction in disruption to the NRL by minimsing players coming down with flu like symptoms. Yes its not perfect, but its the only thing we'e got. And if you had a religious or some other spurious reason, there was a form that they could sign so that they didn't have to get it. Its a tiny concession for the players to allow them to resume their privileged position making a stack of money playing football, during an extraordinary time in world history. But they didn't sign the form, they took objection that the form stated "not having the influenza immunisation puts them at higher risk of contracting influenza" which it clearly does. Now I have no idea why they didn't get the jab, or why they crossed out that line, but the optics of it are poor. They look like anti-vaxxers and that is very disappointing.

Hundreds of thousands of people are dying and millions are out of work, yet social media is awash with conspiracy theories, dangerous agenda driven misinformation. I for one am absolutely sick of it. If we are lucky, and we might not be, our way out of this mess will be a vaccine. If that is the case, we need as many people as possible to roll up their sleeves and take their jab. Its time for sensible people to start calling out this type off nonsense.
Bennyinthewest
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Bennyinthewest »

hrundi89 wrote:I got a flu shot on Saturday and I was achy as hell for a few days but that was it.
Neeeegz wrote:
Northern Raider wrote: May 8, 2020, 9:50 pm
Dr Zaius wrote: May 8, 2020, 8:39 pm
Neeeegz wrote:Flu vaccinations haven't been effective for the last 3 years, why would they be now ?
Reference please
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Personal experience from family members and friends. **** me there are some condescending leftard ****wits on this page
Couldn't agree more..doesn't concern them till it happens to their family and friends (like Cartwright)

And their stance means they can call people what ever they want (online because most people on here wouldn't say it to their face)

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Bennyinthewest
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Bennyinthewest »

Thanks Dr

Some great info

I'm far from anti vax, I just can't see why they would enforce all the league players who are all living on a bubble, to get a jab that won't help with covid (and some reports makes you susceptible to others but right now I don't care about that) and gonads to that wmthts are opening gyms in 2 weeks....

It just feels like a government flexing their muscle.

If they wanted to fix some issues between league players n society.....maybe they should mandate that no rugby league players are ever allowed to drink alcohol

No drink or no play (obviously sarcastic)

Side note: my bests friends are up there in the pharmaceutical industry (one of the big ones) they hate the flu shot n it's ingredients n said they would never get a vaccine that hasn't been tested for years n years (won't go into detail, will start a **** show) but they do get some good info from their company.

Anyway I just wish people would be nicer to each other, as cobmvid has shown once again, companies love to fudge numbers, I am just about pro choice and I thought it took guys to stand up when everyone else caved into something they hated just because they didn't want to be that guy

Love you all, I hope we get our boys n win this freaking premiership, this could be our year



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Dr Zaius
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Dr Zaius »

Bennyinthewest wrote: May 9, 2020, 2:25 pm Thanks Dr

Some great info

I'm far from anti vax, I just can't see why they would enforce all the league players who are all living on a bubble, to get a jab that won't help with covid (and some reports makes you susceptible to others but right now I don't care about that) and gonads to that wmthts are opening gyms in 2 weeks....

It just feels like a government flexing their muscle.

If they wanted to fix some issues between league players n society.....maybe they should mandate that no rugby league players are ever allowed to drink alcohol

No drink or no play (obviously sarcastic)

Side note: my bests friends are up there in the pharmaceutical industry (one of the big ones) they hate the flu shot n it's ingredients n said they would never get a vaccine that hasn't been tested for years n years (won't go into detail, will start a **** show) but they do get some good info from their company.

Anyway I just wish people would be nicer to each other, as cobmvid has shown once again, companies love to fudge numbers, I am just about pro choice and I thought it took guys to stand up when everyone else caved into something they hated just because they didn't want to be that guy

Love you all, I hope we get our boys n win this freaking premiership, this could be our year



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Thanks Benny.

It's not muscle flexing. Part of pandemic preparedness is not just minimising Covid cases, but maximising capacity of our healthcare system to cope. Reducing influenza cases reduces strains on resources, helping to maximise our healthcare systems capacity to cope.

I agree re: alcohol. Some clubs (occasionally) do enforce this.

I've no idea what your best friend does, but the ingredients in the influenza vaccine are readily available, for example here (https://immunisationhandbook.health.gov.au/). These aren't untested vaccines. Its just the antigen in them that changes yearly.

I am pro choice Benny. I'm unabashedly provax, but pro choice. Those decisions should be made on actual science, not antivax rhetoric. The fluxvax isn't ideal, I get why people don't take it. But our choices have consequences. These guys had a choice. They could choose to have the jab or sign a form. They refused both. Its completely baffling. But to argue that they should have a choice is spurious, they had one.
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Chicka Chicka Chicka
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Chicka Chicka Chicka »

The stupid thing is had the players just signed the waiver and not amended it they wouldn’t have needed the flu jab. Simple. There’d be no media stories, likely to be no government comment, things just roll on.

By bringing the issue to everyone’s attention (more so Bryce Cartwright in the media) they’ve shot themselves in the foot......no blown their whole leg off.
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Lui_Bon
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Re: NRL makes landmark call on Canberra Raiders trio

Post by Lui_Bon »

Is it too soon to say that the real tragedy is that Titans will be better off without Cartwright anyway?
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