Belcher#1 wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 12:23 am
Looking at the clubs huge forward depth I think the club should have passed on signing CHN and used that $500k on the backline
We've got middle forward depth though, not edge. As it stands right now, if Whitehead or CHN get hurt, we're probably going to have to move one of Hors, Young or Tapine out there, all three are clearly much better middle forwards and just so-so edge players. So that's not ideal... and the back ups are probably someone like Kai O'Donnel or Medlyn out there.
We absolutely needed an edge to replace JB.
The Ryan James/Sia signings are the ones i'd probably want a redo on and potentially used that money for an outside back
He's behind May (who I thought was a five eighth) for that centre spot...plus they have a few others who are busting to play FG next season...
He's out of contract from 2021, so he can negotiate from 1 Nov..
Belcher#1 wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 12:23 am
Looking at the clubs huge forward depth I think the club should have passed on signing CHN and used that $500k on the backline
We've got middle forward depth though, not edge. As it stands right now, if Whitehead or CHN get hurt, we're probably going to have to move one of Hors, Young or Tapine out there, all three are clearly much better middle forwards and just so-so edge players. So that's not ideal... and the back ups are probably someone like Kai O'Donnel or Medlyn out there.
We absolutely needed an edge to replace JB.
The Ryan James/Sia signings are the ones i'd probably want a redo on and potentially used that money for an outside back
Neeeegz wrote:Timoko and Smith shields are the future centres... I want them in first grade round 1 next season
Geez I’m not sure they’ll turn out to be NRL level players, let alone the stars we need them to be.
I hope I’m wrong, but I’ve seen plenty of super talented young backs not make it. The good backs are usually killing it by the time they’re 19. I saw nothing beyond average for Timoko and HSS.
Totally agree, these kids aren’t stars and if they were they’d already be in the team
Neeeegz wrote:Timoko and Smith shields are the future centres... I want them in first grade round 1 next season
Geez I’m not sure they’ll turn out to be NRL level players, let alone the stars we need them to be.
I hope I’m wrong, but I’ve seen plenty of super talented young backs not make it. The good backs are usually killing it by the time they’re 19. I saw nothing beyond average for Timoko and HSS.
Totally agree, these kids aren’t stars and if they were they’d already be in the team
-TW- wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 8:15 am
How's he on the outer?
He was really good, I'd be happy to get him back
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It’s been a rollercoaster few days for Panthers centre Brent Naden. The 24-year-old was dropped to the bench before Saturday’s preliminary final and now it’s been reported that the club hasn’t made any moves to lock him up: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 2b87e27028
Harley Smith-Shields played one full game (in which he suffered a hand injury), and 31 minutes in another. Matt Timoko played one full game, and 35 minutes in another. Both played well against the Sharks.
Are people really writing off these players after one full NRL game? How many other games have people seen them play?
I think they both have a heap of potential. They were both eligible for Under 20s this year. I think some of the negative comments might be a little premature.
We have too many forwards, and there was no need to resign Sia. I said it at the time, but the GH romantics, wanted him resigned. Sia will be 35 next year. I didn't think he added much this year before and after he was injured.
I strongly disagree that Timoko, HSS will not make it. Semi is the one that needs work - he definitely wasn't ready for finals football - simple things like tackling and catching a ball were problems. Again, I pointed it out at the time, said Ricky was mad playing him, Timoko should have continued playing after the Canterbury match, but got abuse from a lot of you on GH.
We really need outside backs. I would gamble on Naden and James Roberts. Before I get criticism regarding Roberts, Souths would definitely have to pay a majority of the freight. He would be better than our centres this year Croker, Rapana and Scott anyway - no pace, no strikepower and cannot tackle. No metres for Scott and Croker as well. Croker was extremely embarrassing in some games - Canterbury first half, Brisbane first half, Penrith first half, Easts and Melbourne come to mind. There was no way Suli V should have scored in that position and Croker and Semi are to blame.
We can be romantics, or look in the mirror and face the truth.
greeneyed wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 10:56 am
Harley Smith-Shields played one full game (in which he suffered a hand injury), and 31 minutes in another. Matt Timoko played one full game, and 35 minutes in another. Both played well against the Sharks.
Are people really writing off these players after one full NRL game? How many other games have people seen them play?
I think they both have a heap of potential. They were both eligible for Under 20s this year. I think some of the negative comments might be a little premature.
Totally agree. To the posters who are deriding them because they are not stars already.
1.) We have a fairly conservative coach who doesn’t tend to throw kids in first grade. Despite our travails in the backs during the year, the team were still winning thus he wouldn’t change the side. There was no reserve grade all year which is another factor.
With hopefully a reserve grade next year and question marks over our backline they will have a great opportunity to spend a lot of the year in first grade, which I think they will.
2.) They played very strongly especially considering they had no match fitness.
3.) Who exactly are killing it at 19 years old at NRL level? Stephen Crichton maybe? Greg Inglis? If you are writing off people because they are not superstars at that age, then you would write off nearly everybody
Naden would be worth a punt if you're watching your pennies and not wanting to block your juniors. He's got genuine pace.
But if you're expecting a complete player we'll be talking about his defence pretty early on.
It would be lunacy to write HSS or Timoko off yet.
In their one full game each they ran130m/140m... one scored a try off a classy awareness play, finished with style. One was pushing off tacklers as if he'd played vs grown men all his life. Each defended quite well _until_ the 60 minute mark when obvious fatigue set in (with well known reasons).
Why on earth would you scrap those kids? Looked very promising to me. Lively in attack, alert, not overawed, physically up for it. There's no way to tell if they'll be stars or not just yet but they certainly enhanced their reputations for mine. Well worth further opportunities both.
Hong Kong Raider wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 11:39 am
We have too many forwards, and there was no need to resign Sia. I said it at the time, but the GH romantics, wanted him resigned. Sia will be 35 next year. I didn't think he added much this year before and after he was injured.
I strongly disagree that Timoko, HSS will not make it. Semi is the one that needs work - he definitely wasn't ready for finals football - simple things like tackling and catching a ball were problems. Again, I pointed it out at the time, said Ricky was mad playing him, Timoko should have continued playing after the Canterbury match, but got abuse from a lot of you on GH.
We really need outside backs. I would gamble on Naden and James Roberts. Before I get criticism regarding Roberts, Souths would definitely have to pay a majority of the freight. He would be better than our centres this year Croker, Rapana and Scott anyway - no pace, no strikepower and cannot tackle. No metres for Scott and Croker as well. Croker was extremely embarrassing in some games - Canterbury first half, Brisbane first half, Penrith first half, Easts and Melbourne come to mind. There was no way Suli V should have scored in that position and Croker and Semi are to blame.
We can be romantics, or look in the mirror and face the truth.
I disagree RE Semi. His development over his 10 games was exponential. Sure he made some rookie mistakes along the way, but he was very good vs Chooks, his scoop and score a wk or 2 before were also great. He beastmoded for a pair of tries in that time too. I can see why they persisted with him. Also remember he went straight from u20s to FG. The coaching staff see the 3 players every week and they made a call. It might be as simple as 'we feel safer with a rookie winger than we do centre', but I think its more than that (yes, I realise Rapa to centre is part of this, and I didnt like that but...). I will also add, I like all 3 of those kids, and i think they will all get a decent crack in years to come.
RE Jimmy the Jet, Ill agree with his attack, BUT, you cant whinge about defense at centre then mention him as the solution. Its also worth noting that Cleary picked May over Naden the other night for defensive reasons.
Croker should 100% of put Vuni into touch no matter what he did the other night. That was awful.
General sentiment is that Timoko and HSS should be given a go and I agree.
My concern is they won’t because Ricky will (understandably) be reluctant to drop the captain.
I also think it’s fair to say we all agree we signed too many forwards and not enough attention on the backline.
I don’t know who mentioned it in another thread (maybe Mr Posh) but there’s got to be someone else leaving in our forward rotation.
Just to be clear for those who misunderstood my comments about HSS and Timoko I don’t expect them to currently be young NRL superstars like Inglis, Cotric, Dugan, Trovoyavich etc.
I’m saying that I have seen plenty of guys who look like superstars amongst their Under 20s or State League level but aren’t anything like the same at NRL level.
Most of the proven quality NRL backs I’ve seen since the late 80s have looked a huge step above their fellow players at the lower levels. Even guys who only had reasonable NRL careers stood out at the level below. Every fan of every other NRL club thinks they have some stand out future superstars in their lower ranks.
GreenMachine wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 2:09 pm
I don’t know who mentioned it in another thread (maybe Mr Posh) but there’s got to be someone else leaving in our forward rotation.
My guess is Havili...
Interesting. Players option 2021 in Havilii's favour. But if the club told him Hodgo/Starling was the preferred hooker/bench combo going forward... then he's fighting umpteen quality middles for a bench spot.
He's not a bad forward, he'd be right in the mix but in light of that and knowing there'd almost certainly be a club out there keen to give him a bench utility #14 role every week it starts to make some sense for him.
I’m thinking off the top of my head around the more recent excitement some Raiders fans had for outside backs Seb Kris, Brad Abbey, Zac Santo, Jeremy Hawkins, Matt Allwood, Semi Saulima, Nathan Massey.
I would think Cotric is our only gun outside back to come through in a very long time.
A decade ago our superstar upcoming outside backs were Justin Carney, Daniel Vidot, Drury Low..... I guess Jarrod Croker, Edrick and Brenko Lee and Josh Dugan can be considered to have been successful.
You make a good point BJ, although I think that applies to most players that come through for us really - we overhype a lot of them. They play for five minutes without setting the world on fire, and we extrapolate that to model a potentially long and prosperous career. It's not reality.
So far I genuinely think that Timoko's the main one with genuine qualities that would make him dangerous in FG. He needs to be given a run.
HSS I think some people may be overrating a bit from what I've seen - he looks like he could be a solid and dependable footballer, but I'm not sure if his ceiling is very high.
Valemei has some potential, mainly in his physicality and size, but he's still got a big development curve ahead of him to complete. Much more Ravalawa than Sivo at this stage.
afgtnk wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 3:18 pm
You make a good point BJ, although I think that applies to most players that come through for us really - we overhype a lot of them. They play for five minutes without setting the world on fire, and we extrapolate that to model a potentially long and prosperous career. It's not reality.
So far I genuinely think that Timoko's the main one with genuine qualities that would make him dangerous in FG. He needs to be given a run.
HSS I think some people may be overrating a bit from what I've seen - he looks like he could be a solid and dependable footballer, but I'm not sure if his ceiling is very high.
Valemei has some potential, mainly in his physicality and size, but he's still got a big development curve ahead of him to complete. Much more Ravalawa than Sivo at this stage.
I would take a Ravalawa. 12th on the try scoring in a terrible Dragons side. TBF, they had 3 in the top 12 - Lomax and Dufty the other 2.
GreenMachine wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 2:09 pm
I don’t know who mentioned it in another thread (maybe Mr Posh) but there’s got to be someone else leaving in our forward rotation.
My guess is Havili...
Interesting. Players option 2021 in Havilii's favour. But if the club told him Hodgo/Starling was the preferred hooker/bench combo going forward... then he's fighting umpteen quality middles for a bench spot.
He's not a bad forward, he'd be right in the mix but in light of that and knowing there'd almost certainly be a club out there keen to give him a bench utility #14 role every week it starts to make some sense for him.
Too many unforced mistakes. Think dropped balls against Roosters (at home , Round 17) and against Melbourne. In attacking positions for both and if we had scored, whole different ball game. If we can free up some cap to buy a up and coming back, I'm for it.
BJ wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 2:50 pm
I’m thinking off the top of my head around the more recent excitement some Raiders fans had for outside backs Seb Kris, Brad Abbey, Zac Santo, Jeremy Hawkins, Matt Allwood, Semi Saulima, Nathan Massey.
I would think Cotric is our only gun outside back to come through in a very long time.
A decade ago our superstar upcoming outside backs were Justin Carney, Daniel Vidot, Drury Low..... I guess Jarrod Croker, Edrick and Brenko Lee and Josh Dugan can be considered to have been successful.
I understand your argument, particularly from an historical perspective, but it is somewhat defeatist
Most of those players that you mention would have qualified support i.e. if they develop this part of their game they could have a good career. Some like Dugan and Milford were brilliant players and arguably played their best football here.
Essentially the potential of HSS and Timoko being decent players is stronger than the current play or potential of a bloke like Croker and even Scott despite his age. Furthermore, I would argue that backlines are getting younger and younger across the comp - look at Cronulla, Penrith, Newcastle, GC to name but a few. They also developed a lot of those players in house.
Thus, should you not explore that potential rather than sit there and watch our backline continue to perform badly and not make changes? That seems illogical to me.
GreenMachine wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 2:09 pm
I don’t know who mentioned it in another thread (maybe Mr Posh) but there’s got to be someone else leaving in our forward rotation.
My guess is Havili...
Interesting. Players option 2021 in Havilii's favour. But if the club told him Hodgo/Starling was the preferred hooker/bench combo going forward... then he's fighting umpteen quality middles for a bench spot.
He's not a bad forward, he'd be right in the mix but in light of that and knowing there'd almost certainly be a club out there keen to give him a bench utility #14 role every week it starts to make some sense for him.
Too many unforced mistakes. Think dropped balls against Roosters (at home , Round 17) and against Melbourne. In attacking positions for both and if we had scored, whole different ball game. If we can free up some cap to buy a up and coming back, I'm for it.
YeaH I think you're right. I've noticed he comes up with his errors at key times in big games- it's a bit of a pattern over more than one season. Starling is clearly the best hooking / bench option for us.
I have a lot of time more Havilii as a footballer but if we DO have to lose a middle and given we already extended Sia it might make sense.
Gents, I would think its safe to say Sia is playing the Jeff Lima roll from a few yrs back. More about off the field help and mentorship than playing on it.
afgtnk wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 3:18 pm
You make a good point BJ, although I think that applies to most players that come through for us really - we overhype a lot of them. They play for five minutes without setting the world on fire, and we extrapolate that to model a potentially long and prosperous career. It's not reality.
So far I genuinely think that Timoko's the main one with genuine qualities that would make him dangerous in FG. He needs to be given a run.
HSS I think some people may be overrating a bit from what I've seen - he looks like he could be a solid and dependable footballer, but I'm not sure if his ceiling is very high.
Valemei has some potential, mainly in his physicality and size, but he's still got a big development curve ahead of him to complete. Much more Ravalawa than Sivo at this stage.
I would take a Ravalawa. 12th on the try scoring in a terrible Dragons side. TBF, they had 3 in the top 12 - Lomax and Dufty the other 2.
If you didn't rely majorly on basic stats, you'd know he's garbage by seeing him play
afgtnk wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 3:18 pm
You make a good point BJ, although I think that applies to most players that come through for us really - we overhype a lot of them. They play for five minutes without setting the world on fire, and we extrapolate that to model a potentially long and prosperous career. It's not reality.
So far I genuinely think that Timoko's the main one with genuine qualities that would make him dangerous in FG. He needs to be given a run.
HSS I think some people may be overrating a bit from what I've seen - he looks like he could be a solid and dependable footballer, but I'm not sure if his ceiling is very high.
Valemei has some potential, mainly in his physicality and size, but he's still got a big development curve ahead of him to complete. Much more Ravalawa than Sivo at this stage.
I would take a Ravalawa. 12th on the try scoring in a terrible Dragons side. TBF, they had 3 in the top 12 - Lomax and Dufty the other 2.
If you didn't rely majorly on basic stats, you'd know he's garbage by seeing him play
Ravalawa is 18 months development ahead of Semi in size and experience. Like many Fijian wingers he looks sus under the high ball, suspect defensively and prone to a spectacular error.
However, can score tries in his sleep, speed to burn, and usually only require 1 off season to bulk up.
Belcher#1 wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 12:23 am
Looking at the clubs huge forward depth I think the club should have passed on signing CHN and used that $500k on the backline
We've got middle forward depth though, not edge. As it stands right now, if Whitehead or CHN get hurt, we're probably going to have to move one of Hors, Young or Tapine out there, all three are clearly much better middle forwards and just so-so edge players. So that's not ideal... and the back ups are probably someone like Kai O'Donnel or Medlyn out there.
We absolutely needed an edge to replace JB.
The Ryan James/Sia signings are the ones i'd probably want a redo on and potentially used that money for an outside back
I'd still have preferred to see Young or Horsburgh as starting backrower with the CHN money pumped into the backline. There's going to be some damn good forwards in reserves next season while the back five will most likely be the worst in the comp
Belcher#1 wrote: ↑October 19, 2020, 12:23 am
Looking at the clubs huge forward depth I think the club should have passed on signing CHN and used that $500k on the backline
We've got middle forward depth though, not edge. As it stands right now, if Whitehead or CHN get hurt, we're probably going to have to move one of Hors, Young or Tapine out there, all three are clearly much better middle forwards and just so-so edge players. So that's not ideal... and the back ups are probably someone like Kai O'Donnel or Medlyn out there.
We absolutely needed an edge to replace JB.
The Ryan James/Sia signings are the ones i'd probably want a redo on and potentially used that money for an outside back
I'd still have preferred to see Young or Horsburgh as starting backrower with the CHN money pumped into the backline. There's going to be some damn good forwards in reserves next season while the back five will most likely be the worst in the comp
I think that's CRAZY.
Hors and Young both got decent shots at the edge role before JB came back and CHN came on board, and both were JAG's (Just another guy) out there. Where as when they play in the middle, they looked like potential rep footballers. We absolutely needed an edge,
I dont disagree with the last sentence but it's going to be damn good middle forwards in reggies next year, the back up edges are pretty sketchy
I thought Hudson really developed the last month or so, maybe that was due to being in the middle or maybe it was just natural progression and it wouldn't have mattered where he was? I've always been pretty big on him and I wouldn't write him off being a good edge just yet, he was actually starting to really remind me of Bateman in some ways, popping up all over the place and just kept putting his hand up for tough carries. If CHN doesn't step up in early 2021 i wouldn't be opposed to giving him another crack on the edge.
he played on the edge in the Sharks game in round 26, and was a complete no factor, arguably his worst game of the year. And that was against a pretty ordinary edge. No impact.
I mean he's already proven me wrong about his level of upside so im open to him to prove me wrong again, but this is an elite impact middle forward. Leave him where he is and let him shine.
I wouldn't be writing off CHN so early, he is an NZ rep second rower. If he's given time starting in one position I think he could be a real weapon for us there. Young may see himself as a second rower but his best performances in the middle have been levels above anything he's produced in the second row.
I'm happy to roll with Croker, Scott, Timoko and Smith-Shields as our centre options for now. I think we should be spending the money for a solid wing replacement for Cotric rather than a centre. Simonsson and Valemei would be fighting it out for one spot and the recruit in the other. Rapana I think by next year will be our Oldfield, love the guy but he's definitely on the decline with age and really should be more of a backup option.
