I have never agreed more with one of your posts Nick. It makes me feel a bit dirty to do so but you are 100000% correct. Windows are nice but sustained success is what we need and that only comes through the process you have described. It’s bloody tough because there are a lot of players outside the core you have mentioned who are champions - who have given everything for the raiders and who you would hate to see leave but it is a business and there is a formula for long term success and we either need to get on board with it or resign ourselves to going back to cheering for our lovable losers. I want sustained success. I don’t know what a Smith-Shields is yet but this time last year I had no idea what a CNK was either.The Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 7:32 am Successful clubs keep their premiership windows open by continually turning over their roster and keeping it fresh as players get too expensive. What makes teams like the Storm and yes, even the Roosters so good is that every season they shed top players and bring new ones into the system so they can keep the guys they need, the key players. The Storm in particular is absolutely brilliant at bringing new guys through Queensland Cup, building them into their system and then releasing older stars as they get too expensive while maintaining their core. Neither of those clubs bitch and moan and say “oh well, our premiership window is only this year and next”, they get on with the job.
One of our biggest problems as a club is we try to hold on to absolutely EVERYBODY. You just can’t do that in the modern era. In my opinion, it’s key to maintain our spine and a few key players, so CNK, Wighton, G. Williams, Hodgson, Papalii and John Bateman, and absolutely everybody, EVERYBODY else is disposable.
I love the rest of the guys on our roster, but players like Leilua, Rapana, Croker, Cotric, even Elliott Whitehead need to be assessed and eventually moved on if they demand too much if we’re going to maintain any sustained success as a club.
Much as it pains me to say that, that’s the nature of this business today.
Jack Wighton signs four-year extension with Canberra Raiders
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
tbh I agree with this commentary.Northern Raider wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 8:33 amAgree and I'd even reduce the list of "must retain" down to 3 players. Hodgo because dummy half is such an important position in the modern game and it's way to hard to find one of his calibre. Papalii because he's an elite middle forward you can build the rest of the pack around. Bateman as his win at all costs attitude seems to flow through the entire squad.The Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 7:32 am Successful clubs keep their premiership windows open by continually turning over their roster and keeping it fresh as players get too expensive. What makes teams like the Storm and yes, even the Roosters so good is that every season they shed top players and bring new ones into the system so they can keep the guys they need, the key players. The Storm in particular is absolutely brilliant at bringing new guys through Queensland Cup, building them into their system and then releasing older stars as they get too expensive while maintaining their core. Neither of those clubs bitch and moan and say “oh well, our premiership window is only this year and next”, they get on with the job.
One of our biggest problems as a club is we try to hold on to absolutely EVERYBODY. You just can’t do that in the modern era. In my opinion, it’s key to maintain our spine and a few key players, so CNK, Wighton, G. Williams, Hodgson, Papalii and John Bateman, and absolutely everybody, EVERYBODY else is disposable.
I love the rest of the guys on our roster, but players like Leilua, Rapana, Croker, Cotric, even Elliott Whitehead need to be assessed and eventually moved on if they demand too much if we’re going to maintain any sustained success as a club.
Much as it pains me to say that, that’s the nature of this business today.
Just about everyone else is replaceable. Of course some more difficult than others.
I also agree with the reduction of the must retain and even that must retain will change over time as those players get older. Ie Josh Hodgson is turning 30 at the end of this month. At the end of his contract that goes until 2022 you wouldnt be paying a 34 year old hooker anything over 500k unless they are cameron smith - see the tigers and robbie farah who tbh is the most similar hooker (albeit a lot older and in decline) to hodgson going around.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
I also think you are correct Piggy, but I see this as a weakness that the club has. Let me move it away from Croker because I get that’s emotive and kills the discussion, but I think for too long we have held emotional connections to players that have held us back. I suspect there would have been a lot of roosters fans outraged at the thought the club would cut Pearce but I bet those wounds have healed. I think Sia is a champion on and off the field and I never want the Sia show to end. I want to see him go out a premiership player. For the club to be successful you need Don Furner and his team of scouts and managers to be a lot less sentimental and a lot more results focused than me and most the fan base. Every time we lock a position and remove it from discussion we restrict our options.PigRickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 7:38 amThe coach and CEO have made it abundantly clear how they feel about Croker, and based on those comments, he's not going anywhereafgtnk wrote: ↑October 14, 2019, 9:16 pm I think Croker needs to be added to that list with Sezer and Rapana at some point, whether that's now or next season, as much as his staunch supporters don't want to hear it. That's three players easily identified who are on decent coin, yet could be replaced without much effect. We've done this already to the forwards but haven't touched the backs yet.
I can't recall his salary being bandied around in any reports but I'd gather having played and been extended multiple times through an era when we were trash and losing stars regularly, the guy's probably earning a lot more than we could be paying him or another centre of equal ability.
So as much as his staunch haters dont want to hear it he's part of the core of guys like Bateman, Hodgson, Wighton, Papalii who the club is just not going to let walk... so whatever anyone wants to think about that...
Going back to your post, I agree Croker won’t be moving and very much doubt he would renegotiate his salary down. I can see plenty of reasons to keep him especially if the price is right - I just think all but the few players Nick and NR have identified should be part of the balancing act jigsaw puzzle.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
**** off. I wasn't talking to you.Billy Walker wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 8:35 amI have never agreed more with one of your posts Nick. It makes me feel a bit dirty to do so but you are 100000% correct. Windows are nice but sustained success is what we need and that only comes through the process you have described. It’s bloody tough because there are a lot of players outside the core you have mentioned who are champions - who have given everything for the raiders and who you would hate to see leave but it is a business and there is a formula for long term success and we either need to get on board with it or resign ourselves to going back to cheering for our lovable losers. I want sustained success. I don’t know what a Smith-Shields is yet but this time last year I had no idea what a CNK was either.The Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 7:32 am Successful clubs keep their premiership windows open by continually turning over their roster and keeping it fresh as players get too expensive. What makes teams like the Storm and yes, even the Roosters so good is that every season they shed top players and bring new ones into the system so they can keep the guys they need, the key players. The Storm in particular is absolutely brilliant at bringing new guys through Queensland Cup, building them into their system and then releasing older stars as they get too expensive while maintaining their core. Neither of those clubs bitch and moan and say “oh well, our premiership window is only this year and next”, they get on with the job.
One of our biggest problems as a club is we try to hold on to absolutely EVERYBODY. You just can’t do that in the modern era. In my opinion, it’s key to maintain our spine and a few key players, so CNK, Wighton, G. Williams, Hodgson, Papalii and John Bateman, and absolutely everybody, EVERYBODY else is disposable.
I love the rest of the guys on our roster, but players like Leilua, Rapana, Croker, Cotric, even Elliott Whitehead need to be assessed and eventually moved on if they demand too much if we’re going to maintain any sustained success as a club.
Much as it pains me to say that, that’s the nature of this business today.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Look i agree with everyone else here... if it were me, Bateman, Papalii, Hodgson and maybe Wighton are probably the guys, talent wise you say are the pillars of the sqaud... you hope CNK and George Williams nudge their way into that group.. but wingers and centres wouldnt be super high on my list, and nor would any middle or edge forward past my best of each.
But it's just clear the club isnt operating with the same mind set.
also: i just saw the post above re: Hodgson's age... we're probably 2-3 years away from needing a new hooker... im not remotely ready for that.
But it's just clear the club isnt operating with the same mind set.
also: i just saw the post above re: Hodgson's age... we're probably 2-3 years away from needing a new hooker... im not remotely ready for that.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
And that's why we're all bemoaning the fact our Premiership window is going to be so small.PigRickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 9:08 am Look i agree with everyone else here... if it were me, Bateman, Papalii, Hodgson and maybe Wighton are probably the guys, talent wise you say are the pillars of the sqaud... you hope CNK and George Williams nudge their way into that group.. but wingers and centres wouldnt be super high on my list, and nor would any middle or edge forward past my best of each.
But it's just clear the club isnt operating with the same mind set.
also: i just saw the post above re: Hodgson's age... we're probably 2-3 years away from needing a new hooker... im not remotely ready for that.
It has nothing to do with the imbalance of the NRL, and everything to do with the fact our club isn't prepared to make the same decisions and be ruthless with our roster like successful clubs such as the Storm and Roosters are.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Agreed - well saidThe Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 9:10 amAnd that's why we're all bemoaning the fact our Premiership window is going to be so small.PigRickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 9:08 am Look i agree with everyone else here... if it were me, Bateman, Papalii, Hodgson and maybe Wighton are probably the guys, talent wise you say are the pillars of the sqaud... you hope CNK and George Williams nudge their way into that group.. but wingers and centres wouldnt be super high on my list, and nor would any middle or edge forward past my best of each.
But it's just clear the club isnt operating with the same mind set.
also: i just saw the post above re: Hodgson's age... we're probably 2-3 years away from needing a new hooker... im not remotely ready for that.
It has nothing to do with the imbalance of the NRL, and everything to do with the fact our club isn't prepared to make the same decisions and be ruthless with our roster like successful clubs such as the Storm and Roosters are.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Yep, that's fair.
This is a sneaky big off season for the club, as i mentioned elsewhere, we're going to find out in the next 12 months whether Stuart and DFJ have turned the corner on some of this stuff in terms of their ruthlessness and desire to build a true winning culture... or we're still happy to a family club.
To win a premiership, first the club actually has to be trying to win it... and by trying i dont mean the players on the park and the intent... i mean they have to be making decisions and moves related to the playing and coaching personnel that aid us achieving that goal... i think on the park and on the training paddock we REALLY made big strides in this area of not just hoping to win a premiership, but trying to win it, and doing what the things that requires...
Off the park, Stick, Mulholland and DFJ are now in the drivers seat to take this season and try and steer it into a sustainable success model. I dont know if they have the stones for it if im honest.
This is a sneaky big off season for the club, as i mentioned elsewhere, we're going to find out in the next 12 months whether Stuart and DFJ have turned the corner on some of this stuff in terms of their ruthlessness and desire to build a true winning culture... or we're still happy to a family club.
To win a premiership, first the club actually has to be trying to win it... and by trying i dont mean the players on the park and the intent... i mean they have to be making decisions and moves related to the playing and coaching personnel that aid us achieving that goal... i think on the park and on the training paddock we REALLY made big strides in this area of not just hoping to win a premiership, but trying to win it, and doing what the things that requires...
Off the park, Stick, Mulholland and DFJ are now in the drivers seat to take this season and try and steer it into a sustainable success model. I dont know if they have the stones for it if im honest.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Absolutely - can see this going two ways but I actually feel we will come out of this well. Fully expect we will lose some talent we would rather we kept but I think things are on the up for this club.PigRickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 9:20 am Yep, that's fair.
This is a sneaky big off season for the club, as i mentioned elsewhere, we're going to find out in the next 12 months whether Stuart and DFJ have turned the corner on some of this stuff in terms of their ruthlessness and desire to build a true winning culture... or we're still happy to a family club.
To win a premiership, first the club actually has to be trying to win it... and by trying i dont mean the players on the park and the intent... i mean they have to be making decisions and moves related to the playing and coaching personnel that aid us achieving that goal... i think on the park and on the training paddock we REALLY made big strides in this area of not just hoping to win a premiership, but trying to win it, and doing what the things that requires...
Off the park, Stick, Mulholland and DFJ are now in the drivers seat to take this season and try and steer it into a sustainable success model. I dont know if they have the stones for it if im honest.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Shut-up.Billy Walker wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 9:16 amAgreed - well saidThe Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 9:10 amAnd that's why we're all bemoaning the fact our Premiership window is going to be so small.PigRickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 9:08 am Look i agree with everyone else here... if it were me, Bateman, Papalii, Hodgson and maybe Wighton are probably the guys, talent wise you say are the pillars of the sqaud... you hope CNK and George Williams nudge their way into that group.. but wingers and centres wouldnt be super high on my list, and nor would any middle or edge forward past my best of each.
But it's just clear the club isnt operating with the same mind set.
also: i just saw the post above re: Hodgson's age... we're probably 2-3 years away from needing a new hooker... im not remotely ready for that.
It has nothing to do with the imbalance of the NRL, and everything to do with the fact our club isn't prepared to make the same decisions and be ruthless with our roster like successful clubs such as the Storm and Roosters are.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
To win a comp you need elite players, and you need good talented players around them.
The only way to do that is to not be overpaying hardly anyone, or probably absolutely no one. Secondly you have to actually attract or nurture elite talent.
We are halfway there.
We have elite talent like we haven’t had before.
However many of the players we have on really really good value deals like Bateman and CNK won’t be like that for long.
So if we are overpaying BJ or Croker, that’s going to catch up with us real quick because we won’t be able to pay Bateman what he’s worth. or we won’t be able to pay Wighton his new market value.
Mistakes or stretches we made 1-3 years ago are going to come back to roost now. When we didn’t have that obvious elite talent in the squad we could get away with slightly inflated deals for players like Croker. But now we can’t.
The Roosters and Melbourne haven’t for 5+ years.
This isn’t a shot at Croker, he’s just a perfect example, even though I have no idea what he’s paid.
The only way to do that is to not be overpaying hardly anyone, or probably absolutely no one. Secondly you have to actually attract or nurture elite talent.
We are halfway there.
We have elite talent like we haven’t had before.
However many of the players we have on really really good value deals like Bateman and CNK won’t be like that for long.
So if we are overpaying BJ or Croker, that’s going to catch up with us real quick because we won’t be able to pay Bateman what he’s worth. or we won’t be able to pay Wighton his new market value.
Mistakes or stretches we made 1-3 years ago are going to come back to roost now. When we didn’t have that obvious elite talent in the squad we could get away with slightly inflated deals for players like Croker. But now we can’t.
The Roosters and Melbourne haven’t for 5+ years.
This isn’t a shot at Croker, he’s just a perfect example, even though I have no idea what he’s paid.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
I’d also like to echo my lack of faith that this club can operate they way they need to retain elite talent and the squad they need around them.
But you know what. I also had HIGH doubt a reserve grade winger was going to be the answer to our fullback spot, and I said as much a number of times before the season started.
So maybe a little blind faith (or in the case of Rickman regarding Stuart to start the year, ‘Sarcastic faith’) that DFJ, Ricky and Co will figure it out.
But you know what. I also had HIGH doubt a reserve grade winger was going to be the answer to our fullback spot, and I said as much a number of times before the season started.
So maybe a little blind faith (or in the case of Rickman regarding Stuart to start the year, ‘Sarcastic faith’) that DFJ, Ricky and Co will figure it out.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
I enjoy my faith being described as "sarcastic faith" even though I clearly listed all the reasons why we'd go well this season before a ball was even kicked and I was spot **** on with all of them.
Some people just really don't like being late to the party.
Some people just really don't like being late to the party.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
I mean in Ricky Stuart in particular.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
TrueThe Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 11:01 am I enjoy my faith being described as "sarcastic faith" even though I clearly listed all the reasons why we'd go well this season before a ball was even kicked and I was spot **** on with all of them.
Some people just really don't like being late to the party.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you completely off him (as was I) for the failures that were 2017 and 18. And you decided to flip on that, and be his greatest supporter with full faith in him*
*until Rd 7-8 when you would turn on him if we weren't performing to whatever standard you had set
*until Rd 7-8 when you would turn on him if we weren't performing to whatever standard you had set
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Beejay wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 11:41 am Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you completely off him (as was I) for the failures that were 2017 and 18. And you decided to flip on that, and be his greatest supporter with full faith in him*
*until Rd 7-8 when you would turn on him if we weren't performing to whatever standard you had set
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Rabbitohs forum has Jack to Roosters after they offload a centre. Wouldn’t surprise me
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Haha massive re-writing of history here, but tute on, Beejay… tute on!!Beejay wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 11:41 am Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you completely off him (as was I) for the failures that were 2017 and 18. And you decided to flip on that, and be his greatest supporter with full faith in him*
*until Rd 7-8 when you would turn on him if we weren't performing to whatever standard you had set
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
It's not set in stone. He could decide he wants to take less elsewhere. From what's been said, he and his manager would give the raiders the right of reply.
He could very well take less to stay here for example if the titans offered 1million and we offered 900k. There's more to it than just the final figure.
He could very well take less to stay here for example if the titans offered 1million and we offered 900k. There's more to it than just the final figure.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
They should just index Crokers salary to the success of his goal kicking. Done!Billy Walker wrote:I also think you are correct Piggy, but I see this as a weakness that the club has. Let me move it away from Croker because I get that’s emotive and kills the discussion, but I think for too long we have held emotional connections to players that have held us back. I suspect there would have been a lot of roosters fans outraged at the thought the club would cut Pearce but I bet those wounds have healed. I think Sia is a champion on and off the field and I never want the Sia show to end. I want to see him go out a premiership player. For the club to be successful you need Don Furner and his team of scouts and managers to be a lot less sentimental and a lot more results focused than me and most the fan base. Every time we lock a position and remove it from discussion we restrict our options.PigRickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 7:38 amThe coach and CEO have made it abundantly clear how they feel about Croker, and based on those comments, he's not going anywhereafgtnk wrote: ↑October 14, 2019, 9:16 pm I think Croker needs to be added to that list with Sezer and Rapana at some point, whether that's now or next season, as much as his staunch supporters don't want to hear it. That's three players easily identified who are on decent coin, yet could be replaced without much effect. We've done this already to the forwards but haven't touched the backs yet.
I can't recall his salary being bandied around in any reports but I'd gather having played and been extended multiple times through an era when we were trash and losing stars regularly, the guy's probably earning a lot more than we could be paying him or another centre of equal ability.
So as much as his staunch haters dont want to hear it he's part of the core of guys like Bateman, Hodgson, Wighton, Papalii who the club is just not going to let walk... so whatever anyone wants to think about that...
Going back to your post, I agree Croker won’t be moving and very much doubt he would renegotiate his salary down. I can see plenty of reasons to keep him especially if the price is right - I just think all but the few players Nick and NR have identified should be part of the balancing act jigsaw puzzle.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Word is they'll have to let Ikuvalu and Tupuoniua go to fit them into the cap but the Roosters are willing to make those tough decisions in order to remain contenders.
* The author assumes no responsibility for the topicality, correctness, completeness or quality of information provided.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
I don't think it's much of a re-write.The Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 12:00 pmHaha massive re-writing of history here, but tute on, Beejay… tute on!!Beejay wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 11:41 am Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you completely off him (as was I) for the failures that were 2017 and 18. And you decided to flip on that, and be his greatest supporter with full faith in him*
*until Rd 7-8 when you would turn on him if we weren't performing to whatever standard you had set
In December you were happy for McFadden to take over. it wasn't till February that you had come around to things like Jack to 6.
I'd been banging on about that since back half of 2018 season.
My point was not to have a go at you, I didn't think that statement about 'sarcastic faith' was going to be all that controversial.
Anyway, I am going to hold 'sarcastic faith' that our contract negotiation team can match the complete reversal of form Ricky Stuart produced in 2019.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
What's "controversial" here is that you're just completely making up "facts" to suit your own "narrative"... whatever that is.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Billy Walker wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 11:40 amTrueThe Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 11:01 am I enjoy my faith being described as "sarcastic faith" even though I clearly listed all the reasons why we'd go well this season before a ball was even kicked and I was spot **** on with all of them.
Some people just really don't like being late to the party.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
My narrative is that the only evidence of our clubs ability to negotiate contracts, contradicts what our hopes are.The Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 1:03 pm What's "controversial" here is that you're just completely making up "facts" to suit your own "narrative"... whatever that is.
Either we have blind faith they can pull it off, or as I've mentioned 'sarcastic faith', that hopefully manifests itself.
I thought you going from a complete 'nego' at Stuart saying he should be replaced by pretty much anyone including McFadden, to changing your name to 'Rick'man and being effusive in your positivity towards him, was somewhat sarcastic. But apparently that's a misread.
Either way, can't see what facts i got wrong.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Rickman loves an each-way bet on the entire field, followed up with an “I told you so..”
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Most of them, by the looks of things. Just wild swings in all directions here, you hate to see it.Beejay wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 1:26 pmMy narrative is that the only evidence of our clubs ability to negotiate contracts, contradicts what our hopes are.The Rickman wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 1:03 pm What's "controversial" here is that you're just completely making up "facts" to suit your own "narrative"... whatever that is.
Either we have blind faith they can pull it off, or as I've mentioned 'sarcastic faith', that hopefully manifests itself.
I thought you going from a complete 'nego' at Stuart saying he should be replaced by pretty much anyone including McFadden, to changing your name to 'Rick'man and being effusive in your positivity towards him, was somewhat sarcastic. But apparently that's a misread.
Either way, can't see what facts i got wrong.
Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
December 21st 2018
The Rickman wrote: ↑December 21, 2018, 6:56 amThat’s really not even that sad. It’s still an upgrade.Brew wrote:What is even more sad is that if he was not employed Andrew McFadden would be the coach. If Ricky got the sack in 2019 he would take over.Pigman wrote:When Brew has lost faith in his false messiah, it begs the question... why is he still employed?
I don’t know how I feel about that or that it would give me much hope.
I’d take literally anyone at this point in time.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
Now you're just clutching at straws and putting your quotes upside down.Beejay wrote: ↑October 15, 2019, 2:07 pm December 21st 2018The Rickman wrote: ↑December 21, 2018, 6:56 amThat’s really not even that sad. It’s still an upgrade.Brew wrote:What is even more sad is that if he was not employed Andrew McFadden would be the coach. If Ricky got the sack in 2019 he would take over.Pigman wrote:When Brew has lost faith in his false messiah, it begs the question... why is he still employed?
I don’t know how I feel about that or that it would give me much hope.
I’d take literally anyone at this point in time.
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Re: Jack Wighton turns down Raiders option to go on open market for 2021
The Rick Astley man really emptying the tank here. Making this thread his own fortress IMO.