How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by robtheraider » August 28, 2019, 12:53 pm

gergreg wrote:
August 28, 2019, 11:14 am
PigRickman wrote:
The Rickman wrote:
August 28, 2019, 8:44 am
gergreg wrote:I think there's a real opportunity here for Nickman and Pigman. Spokesmen for the referee. "Fans... you're all wrong... and you're a bunch of ****."

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I think you’re completely misinterpreting our argument if you think we’re both arguing that the refereeing standard is good. My only point is that it goes both ways, and there’s not some grand conspiracy against the raiders.

And just in reference to the OP, how has this cost us third spot? *checks table, scratches head*
Spot on. At no point have either of us said the standard of refereeing is good.
I can speak for myself here and say i have said 100 times that the standard of refereeing is at an all time low and gets worse every year... not all of it their fault btw... what Stuart says about grey areas in the game is absolutely spot on. When you have so many areas of grey an interpretation, of course you'll have wildly inconsistent rulings. But every time the code tries to make a rule black and white, we get a bunch of idiots on the TV like Gould bitch and complain about how the people making the rules dont "understand footy" and they "lack common sense"
and a bunch of fans like woodgers telling us "But you have to have grey mate. If you apply the letter, you find a penalty every single tackle..."

There is 2 points we make about it:
1. It's the same low standard for everyone, and everyone is getting **** one way or another due to this low standard
and
2. there is exactly zero that we can do about it, so having a culture within the club where we bitch, complain and sook about every little thing that doesnt go our way is not helpful or useful, and does nothing to achieve anything.


To answer the questions
How should the NRL deal with refereeing errors?
Simply admit the errors, say the referees are human and doing the best they can under difficult circumstances and continue to do their best to improve the standard of refereeing

how do they do that?
Removing as much grey from the game as they can. The rules should be the rules. The obstruction rule this year is a great example... its really simply and easy now, you cant run around the player and receive an advantage, and player has to receive the football on the outside shoulder of a block runner. Easy. Simple. No ambiguity. And the controversy around the obstruction has disappeared... which isnt to say calls still dont get missed but it's lessened the impact dramatically
My post was a joke btw.

I was only having a discussion with a fellow league fan yesterday (Manly fan, so it was a Lucy/punish type discussion) and I was explaining to him that there are too many grey areas. At the moment there are too few black and white areas of the game. If you punch a bloke, it's a sinbin. If you are penalised and a quick tap is taken and you tackle the bloke in an offside position, it's a sinbin. The players know it, the fans know and the referees job is much easier. There needs to be more black and white in the game. The punishing Manly fan agreed.

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Happy to stand corrected, but I was under the impression that upon a turnover the ball is to be given straight to the opposition or its a penalty. There were a number if instances on Sunday, especially one from Turbo Tom, where he was tackled on the 6th play then point blank refused to let the ball go for about 10 seconds and basically stopped the game....surprise surprise, no penalty
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by -PJ- » August 28, 2019, 6:26 pm

The whole offside/intercept try Manly scored has me thinking of a different set of circumstances. If Hodgos dummy half pass hits it's intended target(Jack I think?) and he's driven into the ground by an offside Gosiwankski(and he was offside)I reckon our 17 green beautiful beasts get a penalty. Surely 2 on field refs plus the touchie on that side would have called it..

This is why I'm absolutely dumbfounded it wasn't called before they ran 95m down field and scored..

Thoughts on that ?
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by gangrenous » August 28, 2019, 6:28 pm

I don’t see why that would be the case. I think you’re less likely to get a penalty if we retain possession. Not more.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by -PJ- » August 28, 2019, 6:59 pm

It wouldn't be any different if a defending player failed to retreat the required 10m to stand with the referee, if he's standing offside, rushes up and makes a tackle he's offside and penalised, even if pocession is retained and anywhere in the field off play. Defenders are required to get back 10m(the ref marks that spot.

You're required to have a foot on the try line as well. We've all seen the still shot. No Manly players had a foot on the line and Gosiwankski was standing at least..at least 1m maybe more in the field of play.

How you doin gangers ?
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by gangrenous » August 28, 2019, 7:03 pm

I’m certainly not arguing they weren’t offside. I just think it’s human nature as a referee to feel more compelled to award a penalty if the consequences are worse when they’re in two minds.

So in this case if he thought he may have been slightly offside but it’s a standard play I think a referee would be more willing to let that slide than when possession is lost and points scored against the team.

I’m pretty good today PJ. Yourself?

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by -PJ- » August 28, 2019, 7:21 pm

I'm stable..

Thanks !!
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by The Rickman » August 28, 2019, 7:46 pm

Yeah, I’m with gangers on this one, if the referees aren’t calling that offside for an intercept, there’s no chance they’re blowing a penalty for a tackle
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by PigRickman » August 28, 2019, 8:56 pm

Yeah absolutely spot on...

The refs clearly thought he was onside, but if he was on a knifes edge about the decision and thought it was close, he's definitely more likely to blow the penalty if it results in an interception than if it just ends in a tackle and it's a "no harm, no foul" sort of thing
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by RedRaider » August 28, 2019, 9:01 pm

I think Refs, just like players and coaches, have times when they are in form and times when they make clangers match after match. I don't know of many league fans who believe Klein has had a good year. So why is he still there? Give the younger Refs an opportunity. Like younger players, some will make it and some won't but, imo, opportunity is being blocked by hanging onto those who are out of form.

It has been reported that the senior Refs are earning $300,000 per season. (Dan Walsh NRL.Com 12/3/19). For that coin fans should expect high quality from the officials match after match.

If the youth option is not considered feasible, I would not be opposed to the older idea of using some International refs in the NRL either. I am sure some would jump at the opportunity of being a ref in the NRL. It may also create some healthy competition among whistle blowers.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by -PJ- » August 28, 2019, 9:10 pm

I'm trying my best..
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by RedRaider » August 28, 2019, 9:27 pm

From out of the man cave comes - PJ - to lead the Ref revival. It has a ring to it and for $300K I'm sure your attention to detail would be spot on. Hook in PJ.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by -PJ- » August 28, 2019, 9:54 pm

I don't have the legs for those itty bitty shorts...
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by Lui_Bon » August 28, 2019, 11:30 pm

I can't be bothered with any discussion of "the refs". Not right now anyway, I'd rather shoot from the hip.

By way of digression, I had a colleague who loathed Perenara as the worst ref going, because he once did something or other to Parramatta. No amount of logic could dissuade him. Or urging, either. So my biases may be just as blinkered, but I reckon that the issue is not "the refs" but with certain individuals, just as Australian cricket fans may not have issues with "the umpires" but just a few, or even one, of them.

I hate Ashley Klein as a ref. Some years ago I thought he was an English breath of fresh air, but gradually he has become the most metronomic and jobsworth ref in the entire NRL. He's so bad that the bunker have to tie themselves in knots to support him, and when he's in the bunker he defies every convention in order to produce the plain stupid decision. I'm not saying he's often wrong so much as he's often stupid. Games he is in charge of are usually the ones that degenerate into chaos the fastest. The sooner he racks off the better.

Sutton is pretty poor, but he is nowhere near as bad as Klein. In fact, I think he may have got a bit better this year. It wouldn't be hard.

Cummins is also quite dodgy, and he used to seem he had it in for the Raiders. Now I think he's just not that good.

And there's your NRL Top Three. Blokes like Badger have had the odd howler, and Perenara seems to be getting more grimly authoritarian the higher his stocks rise, but they don't seem willfully witless. Adam Gee is mostly anonymous and that's got to be a good thing. Belinda Sharpe hasn't yet had a howler and hopefully won't. Can't think of any others right now, though I'd hope Kasey Badger gets a go eventually - and I have a suspicion she won't be that good, for no reason other than that she's always been a completely non-interventionist touch judge.

The point is that it isn't "the refs", it's the coterie of those in the inner circle who are protected by the NRL regardless of how crap they are. I wonder if some more focus on which actual individuals are doing the worst jobs might help in working out what it is that refs should be doing compared to what they shouldn't; if that leads to demotions so be it, I don't want to go all ad hominem but if a spell in reserve grade, or on the line, helps a few refs work out why their decision-making has sucked then so be it.
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by gangrenous » August 29, 2019, 6:02 am

I like Badger too. Best ref imo.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by pickles » August 29, 2019, 7:45 am

There’s no way you can remove refereeing blunders from the game completely. While they get it wrong at times I would say that the standard is actually pretty high given the speed of the game and the level of scrutiny.

From my perspective the biggest problem is that the interpretations of the rules change constantly making it impossible for refs to be consistent and a lot of the interpretation is driven by the media. Phil Gould talks about refs that have no feel for the game but some of the stupidest interpretations of rules have been driven by him.

I also think the idea that penalty counts need to balance is a joke. Just referee the game and if it ends up lopsided so be it. There is currently almost no incentive for discipline as teams know refs will put the whistle away and even it up.

Although is don’t think there is much wrong with the rules I think some minor changes could improve the flow of the game. I agree that a 5 minute sin bin for repeat infringements would help and I also wonder whether for slowing down the ruck if instead of a penalty whether a zero tackle call would be better. One of the main reasons teams give away penalties is to slow down the game and this would take that or of the equation and keep the game flowing rather than giving the line a chance to reset, I guess the flip side would be that on early tackles there would be a very small penalty for slowing the ruck.

There isn’t a perfect answer that’s for sure!

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by Coastalraider » August 29, 2019, 7:55 am

pickles wrote:
August 29, 2019, 7:45 am
There’s no way you can remove refereeing blunders from the game completely. While they get it wrong at times I would say that the standard is actually pretty high given the speed of the game and the level of scrutiny.

From my perspective the biggest problem is that the interpretations of the rules change constantly making it impossible for refs to be consistent and a lot of the interpretation is driven by the media. Phil Gould talks about refs that have no feel for the game but some of the stupidest interpretations of rules have been driven by him.

I also think the idea that penalty counts need to balance is a joke. Just referee the game and if it ends up lopsided so be it. There is currently almost no incentive for discipline as teams know refs will put the whistle away and even it up.

Although is don’t think there is much wrong with the rules I think some minor changes could improve the flow of the game. I agree that a 5 minute sin bin for repeat infringements would help and I also wonder whether for slowing down the ruck if instead of a penalty whether a zero tackle call would be better. One of the main reasons teams give away penalties is to slow down the game and this would take that or of the equation and keep the game flowing rather than giving the line a chance to reset, I guess the flip side would be that on early tackles there would be a very small penalty for slowing the ruck.

There isn’t a perfect answer that’s for sure!
I really like that zero tackle rule pickles.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by gangrenous » August 29, 2019, 7:55 am

Great post pickles!

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by PigRickman » August 29, 2019, 8:23 am

Yeah that zero tackle for ruck penalties would be interesting
You’d have to allow for the officials to still stop the game and award a penalty if they felt it was warranted because otherwise up 2 or level, under 2 minutes left and defending in my half, I’m laying all over that **** knowing they can’t kick for goal to tie the game up or win it and to make sure if it’s a FG situation my defence is back to charge the kicker effectively

Also professional fouls would need to be considered. A fullback holding down after a long break being 6 to go is actually a great result if it means you give your defence a chance to get reset

How consistent could the officials rule on that across games?
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by PigRickman » August 29, 2019, 8:32 am

I really think they just need to clean up the rules and interpretations, make them black and white and if you want to clean the ruck up, you simply put in a black and white rule that says if a team concedes 3 penalties in a row within a 5 minute period, it’s an automatic 5 minute sin bin
No ifs or but’s, no arguments, no warnings... 3 penalties in 5 minutes, and you sit
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How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by The Rickman » August 29, 2019, 8:37 am

pickles wrote:There’s no way you can remove refereeing blunders from the game completely. While they get it wrong at times I would say that the standard is actually pretty high given the speed of the game and the level of scrutiny.

From my perspective the biggest problem is that the interpretations of the rules change constantly making it impossible for refs to be consistent and a lot of the interpretation is driven by the media. Phil Gould talks about refs that have no feel for the game but some of the stupidest interpretations of rules have been driven by him.

I also think the idea that penalty counts need to balance is a joke. Just referee the game and if it ends up lopsided so be it. There is currently almost no incentive for discipline as teams know refs will put the whistle away and even it up.

Although is don’t think there is much wrong with the rules I think some minor changes could improve the flow of the game. I agree that a 5 minute sin bin for repeat infringements would help and I also wonder whether for slowing down the ruck if instead of a penalty whether a zero tackle call would be better. One of the main reasons teams give away penalties is to slow down the game and this would take that or of the equation and keep the game flowing rather than giving the line a chance to reset, I guess the flip side would be that on early tackles there would be a very small penalty for slowing the ruck.

There isn’t a perfect answer that’s for sure!
Yeah good post, agree 100%. I was just coming in here to say that I don’t really believe the standard of refereeing is that bad (or any worse than twenty years ago), it’s just that the interpretation continues to changes every six week and the rules are just so grey and open to discretion these days.

Throw that in with the video ref seeming to be looking for reasons to overturn the onfield ref rather than support their decision and we have the massive cluster-**** we see before us today.

Clean up the rules, stop changing the **** interpretations, stop evening up the penalty counts, IGNORE PHIL GOULD AND HIS NINE COHORTS, and don’t overturn onfield refereeing decisions unless they’re absolute howlers and I reckon we’d see a much cleaner game

What bugs me is when they started to do this a year or two ago I was really enjoying the game. The extra penalties and lopsided counts didn’t detract from the viewing experience, they actually made the game flow BETTER!
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by pickles » August 29, 2019, 8:55 am

You would definitely need to still be able to award a penalty for ruck infringements if they were repeated or constituted a professional foul. One of my pet hates is when a player has made a break and the defender hangs on for ages. That’s when they have earned a quick play of the ball and momentum for their team. A 5 minute bin would be used a lot more in those situations and should be!

I agree that that refs should have stuck to their guns at the start of last year. If they had held their nerve the players would have changed their play and we would have a better game.

The best games are games that flow, few stoppages and the ball in play for as much time as possible. It generates the fatigue that opens the game up and leads to exciting football.

There also seems to be a belief that sin binning players is too big a penalty but we had 2 players binned and came back from 18-0 down to beat the storm so it doesn’t determine he outcome. It would be good to see the bin used more often, especially for repeat infringements and professional fouls. If the bin was used in almost every game it would be less controversial when it did happen and people would adapt.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by woppadingo » August 29, 2019, 11:51 am

On the Manly game, I reckon Klein (Nein, Nine!) was responsible for a 20 point turnaround in the scoreline.
He blows 23 penalties on that game but will not review the offside for the intercept try (Raiders 14- manly 10) and the footage shows atleast 3 Manly players offside at the ruck; blows a penalty against Whitehead for some kind of strip when the footage shows it was clearly a loose carry, leading to a try (Raiders 14 - Manly 4) and Wightons try (ok arguable). Raiders 20 - Manly 4.
Thats 14 additional points for Manly and -6 for us. Total 20 points difference.
I would not be worried about playing Manly again as weve shown we're way better than them.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by GreenMachine » August 30, 2019, 11:11 am

gangrenous wrote:
August 28, 2019, 6:44 am
magoo wrote: Admitting errors does SFA to appease clubs and fans
I much prefer it to before when they tried to paint a **** and convince you the mistake was actually right each week, or just ignored the error.
Same here!
I find the press conference galling and an embarrassment. It's an 'excuse-athon'....
What does it serve other than frustrate fans of clubs who have been impacted?

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by GreenMachine » August 30, 2019, 11:19 am

For me how to address the issue of the ruck and wrestling is simple:

1. 2 man tackles only (You might say this will be an advantage to teams with Big Boppa's (see point 2).

2. 4 interchanges all match ( Yes - this means you carry Big Boppa's at your own risk).

3. Ref calls held when players forward momentum stops. Players must immediately release the player and NO HANDS ALLOWED ON THE BALL after the held call.

4. Play the ball must be with the foot touching the ball (this will slow the attack and allow the defensive line to set).

5. 8 meter defence line instead of 10 meters.

6. Current strip rule allowed. You either hold onto the pill or you don't deserve it.

That is how I'd go about it.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by The Rickman » August 30, 2019, 12:29 pm

Point 4 is already a rule haha
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by GreenMachine » August 30, 2019, 12:45 pm

The Rickman wrote:
August 30, 2019, 12:29 pm
Point 4 is already a rule haha
I know...would love to see it strictly enforced.
ATM if you pretend to touch the ball, the ref lets it go.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by Billy Walker » August 30, 2019, 4:55 pm

In the AFL, the umpires give sealed 3,2,1 votes throughout the season that result in the Brownlow medal being awarded for the best and fairest player. I think NRL should do the opposite - the captain and coach rate each ref’s performance after a game, on Dally M night, the results are revealed and the highest scoring ref gets the GF gig.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by Riaan » August 30, 2019, 5:55 pm

I didn’t think the refereeing affected the result for us against manly. A cut out ball to your centre/winger when you’re close to the line is a high risk move. It didn’t pay off this time but that’s the way it goes.
We can’t control what the refs do and complaining about it does sweet fa, move on fellas.

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by The Rickman » August 30, 2019, 9:54 pm

Riaan wrote:I didn’t think the refereeing affected the result for us against manly. A cut out ball to your centre/winger when you’re close to the line is a high risk move. It didn’t pay off this time but that’s the way it goes.
We can’t control what the refs do and complaining about it does sweet fa, move on fellas.
We don’t care for opinions like that in these parts, fella

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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by Billy Walker » August 31, 2019, 1:46 am

The Rickman wrote:
August 30, 2019, 9:54 pm
Riaan wrote:I didn’t think the refereeing affected the result for us against manly. A cut out ball to your centre/winger when you’re close to the line is a high risk move. It didn’t pay off this time but that’s the way it goes.
We can’t control what the refs do and complaining about it does sweet fa, move on fellas.
We don’t care for opinions like that in these parts, fella

Get ‘im, boys!!
:roflmao

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Dr Zaius
Laurie Daley
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Joined: April 15, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Queensland somewhere

Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by Dr Zaius » August 31, 2019, 5:59 am

To borrow from the medical profession.

1) Open disclosure of the error. Own it. People will still be pissed, but they'll be less pissed.

2) Root cause analysis. What went wrong? What system or policy can we put in place to stop this error happening again.

3) Disclose to those effected what the outcome of the review is.

In this case, sorry Canberra, we stuffed up, he was offside, you should have recieved a penalty. We've now made it a policy that when an intercept is taken resulting in a try, the offside will always be checked.

I agree with pig. Make the rules as black and white as possible, and enforce them to the letter.
RIP Greenbits: 2007-2014

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greeneyed
Don Furner
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by greeneyed » August 31, 2019, 6:24 am

The trouble is, they regularly “own the error”, on Monday every week, but don’t do anything else. In this case, all they’ve done in regards to the second and third point is say, we don’t ever check that in the video review of the decisions, we leave it to the on field officials, so bad luck. We just check it after the game is over and tell you then an error was made.
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Dr Zaius
Laurie Daley
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Joined: April 15, 2007, 11:03 am
Location: Queensland somewhere

Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by Dr Zaius » August 31, 2019, 6:59 am

greeneyed wrote:The trouble is, they regularly “own the error”, on Monday every week, but don’t do anything else. In this case, all they’ve done in regards to the second and third point is say, we don’t ever check that in the video review of the decisions, we leave it to the on field officials, so bad luck. We just check it after the game is over and tell you then an error was made.
Correct. You own the error, then present the solution. The nrl are incompetent
RIP Greenbits: 2007-2014

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dubby
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Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by dubby » August 31, 2019, 7:28 am

The NRL, well Greenburg in particular, seem all about defending/justifying/making excuses rather than showing some integrity and admitting any faults.

I agree with Dr Zaius + pigman in particular. Just make the rules as black and white as possible, then enforce them.

Like nickman said, i was enjoying the game under the crackdown. It was for the better of the game.

But thanks to media pressure
from Nine (Johns especially) and Rothfield at the DT (who along with Fox are owned by News Corp) the NRL had public pressure from its billion dollar partners to stop the crackdown. So they did.

It was folly to do so. Numbers are down for the NRL, and it's not due to the penalty counts. It's because the coaches are allowed to exploit the rules and get away with it, because the media will sook about refs trying to do their job.

Put a man with chutzpah in control.

I'd nominate:
Dr Zauis
Pickles
Pigman
Red Raider
Gerg
TR.

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gergreg
Steve Walters
Posts: 7083
Joined: June 24, 2008, 4:22 pm

Re: How should the NRL deal with significant refereeing errors?

Post by gergreg » August 31, 2019, 8:34 am

dubby wrote:The NRL, well Greenburg in particular, seem all about defending/justifying/making excuses rather than showing some integrity and admitting any faults.

I agree with Dr Zaius + pigman in particular. Just make the rules as black and white as possible, then enforce them.

Like nickman said, i was enjoying the game under the crackdown. It was for the better of the game.

But thanks to media pressure
from Nine (Johns especially) and Rothfield at the DT (who along with Fox are owned by News Corp) the NRL had public pressure from its billion dollar partners to stop the crackdown. So they did.

It was folly to do so. Numbers are down for the NRL, and it's not due to the penalty counts. It's because the coaches are allowed to exploit the rules and get away with it, because the media will sook about refs trying to do their job.

Put a man with chutzpah in control.

I'd nominate:
Dr Zauis
Pickles
Pigman
Red Raider
Gerg
TR.

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Genuinely interested Dubs. What numbers are down? Tv, attendance or both?

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Shoving it in your face since 2017

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