Our inability to handle the niggle

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greeneyed
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by greeneyed » August 26, 2019, 11:18 pm

I’m just saying... people might want to think about whether their posting tonight has the impact they expected. Maybe they could learn something from that. It might be a more inclusive community if people didn’t have the approach of taking no prisoners in every debate. Not to say I shouldn’t reflect on that myself.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by The Rickman » August 26, 2019, 11:21 pm

greeneyed wrote:I’m just saying... people might want to think about whether their posting tonight has the impact they expected. Maybe they could learn something from that. It might be a more inclusive community if people didn’t have the approach of taking no prisoners in every debate. Not to say I shouldn’t reflect on that myself.
I’d love to know who you’re referring to here, because all I’ve done in this discussion is point out how that graph is not even remotely statistically significant (and it’s not), and in the meantime I’ve been referred to as an absolute tool in the process

If that’s a case of ME needing to think about how I should learn from my posting, then that’ll absolutely do me
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by edwahu » August 26, 2019, 11:29 pm

Turns out the numbers were wrong anyway :| :lol:

I rechecked them when it became apparent that they could get a bit more attention and those numbers are actually the Ruck and Offside Penalties Received . I had used the wrong field to look them up.

So no smoking gun except for the rest of the comp against us and the bit about the Broncos.

Honestly I am fairly embarrassed right now but better to correct it straight away. The right numbers for conceeded are below:

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Also if anyone want's to know how to get the same data you can PM me, perhaps you'd have better luck than me with it.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by greeneyed » August 26, 2019, 11:41 pm

Well that’s a great plot twist! How did the writers come up with that!
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by edwahu » August 26, 2019, 11:43 pm

greeneyed wrote:
August 26, 2019, 11:41 pm
Well that’s a great plot twist! How did the writers come up with that!
Poor Excel skills :lol:

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by greeneyed » August 27, 2019, 12:07 am

The Rickman wrote:
August 26, 2019, 11:21 pm
greeneyed wrote:I’m just saying... people might want to think about whether their posting tonight has the impact they expected. Maybe they could learn something from that. It might be a more inclusive community if people didn’t have the approach of taking no prisoners in every debate. Not to say I shouldn’t reflect on that myself.
I’d love to know who you’re referring to here, because all I’ve done in this discussion is point out how that graph is not even remotely statistically significant (and it’s not), and in the meantime I’ve been referred to as an absolute tool in the process

If that’s a case of ME needing to think about how I should learn from my posting, then that’ll absolutely do me
It was directed at everyone actually, me included.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by afgtnk » August 27, 2019, 2:17 am

Ooooof Nickman in the top corner, assisted by Pig. Ed or Woodgers to pick it out :lol: Fair play to you though Ed for fessing up to the mistake.

I'll go into bat for them though. There is no conspiracy. There is no unconscious bias. These are all by-products of our fan and forum culture. Whinging about how the refs are consistently against us is seemingly the way to fit in around here - it's what's 'cool'.

Almost all fans in every single sport I can think of feel this at some point, or regularly. It's heightened because we've been **** for so long - we aren't special in any of this.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by edwahu » August 27, 2019, 3:05 am

I mean it will get missed now but a lot of the point I originally made is still true,
things like Broncos games generally having a much lower penalty rate and the home ground advantage are real things. So I wouldn't say there are no possible biases, just none against us as a club based on this.

In the end I got this data to try and answer these questions myself, not win internet points, but hopefully this does move the discussion on here along as well.

At least until I do find that smoking gun :lol:

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Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by gangrenous » August 27, 2019, 6:24 am

I did wonder about that, was part of why I asked about the source.

My recollection is that we’ve typically received up the end of most penalties over recent seasons. So had this stat been skewed in that fashion then some of the other areas would have needed to have been even more skewed in the opposite direction to compensate (or that penalties received was similarly imbalanced to leave limited net difference in this area, as edwahu spoke to for the Broncos).

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by PigRickman » August 27, 2019, 7:01 am

Hahah this thread is amazing
I love it

Ed’s work here is really good btw and I appreciate the time and effort that’s gone into it. Also he presented data albeit incorrectly titled data, and presented it without taking a real side on what it said

And what did we find? People just used the numbers, which had no real context (but are good and useful in many ways) and no real correlation to anything and just confirmed their already preconceived ideas. Fascinating little experiment in the end
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
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Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by PigRickman » August 27, 2019, 7:06 am

edwahu wrote:
August 27, 2019, 3:05 am
I mean it will get missed now but a lot of the point I originally made is still true,
things like Broncos games generally having a much lower penalty rate and the home ground advantage are real things. So I wouldn't say there are no possible biases, just none against us as a club based on this.

In the end I got this data to try and answer these questions myself, not win internet points, but hopefully this does move the discussion on here along as well.

At least until I do find that smoking gun :lol:
It’ll only get lost on people it would have never found to begin with

This is the sort of stuff I really wish someone would pay me to do :lol:

Great job Ed, really interesting to see that sort of thing
Last edited by PigRickman on August 27, 2019, 7:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » August 27, 2019, 7:09 am

greeneyed wrote:I’m just saying... people might want to think about whether their posting tonight has the impact they expected. Maybe they could learn something from that. It might be a more inclusive community if people didn’t have the approach of taking no prisoners in every debate. Not to say I shouldn’t reflect on that myself.
It’s all about the ability to handle the niggle. And with that, the conversation has come full circle.
Feel free to call me RickyRicky StickStick if you like. I will also accept Super Fui, King Brad, Kid Dynamite, Chocolate-Thunda... or Brad.

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Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by The Rickman » August 27, 2019, 7:37 am

Hahaha geez I’d hate to be Woodgers today, carried on like a *checks notes* absolute tool

Well played, Ed. Tute on, old son. Tute on
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by The Rickman » August 27, 2019, 7:38 am

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
greeneyed wrote:I’m just saying... people might want to think about whether their posting tonight has the impact they expected. Maybe they could learn something from that. It might be a more inclusive community if people didn’t have the approach of taking no prisoners in every debate. Not to say I shouldn’t reflect on that myself.
It’s all about the ability to handle the niggle. And with that, the conversation has come full circle.
Hahaha complete with Ed coming out and doing his best Graham Annesley on a Monday morning impersonation

Sensational stuff here
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by gergreg » August 27, 2019, 7:41 am

afgtnk wrote:Ooooof Nickman in the top corner, assisted by Pig. Ed or Woodgers to pick it out Image Fair play to you though Ed for fessing up to the mistake.

I'll go into bat for them though. There is no conspiracy. There is no unconscious bias. These are all by-products of our fan and forum culture. Whinging about how the refs are consistently against us is seemingly the way to fit in around here - it's what's 'cool'.

Almost all fans in every single sport I can think of feel this at some point, or regularly. It's heightened because we've been **** for so long - we aren't special in any of this.
Fans of every club think they're hard done by because of the lack of consistency with refereeing. They watch a game one week and form their opinions based on precedence. The following week a similar situation occurs and it is refereed differently. That is not the fans problem, it's totally on the NRL. And it happens in just about every facet of the game. The idea that this is just a bunch of delusional fans would actually hold some weight if there was any evidence that consistency existed but the Head of the game says it's overrated. To me it's one of the things the game needs to get better at, not pretend it's unachievable.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by edwahu » August 27, 2019, 7:59 am

Thanks for the encouragement. Once I get a bit more time I might post some of the less controversial stuff in another thread. I actually wanted the stats in the first place to look at the players and teams more than the refs.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by PigRickman » August 27, 2019, 8:36 am

Back to the heart of this thread
We’re going to get a crash course in niggle this week, so I’m really very interested to see how the team handles it this week

This will be a hit of a bell weather game for me on how confident I remain about winning the comp
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Woodgers » August 27, 2019, 9:29 am

I feel like this is a movie and i've been double crossed :D .

Happy to concede the point here. Clearly the data on the ruck/10m penalties doesn't support the broader argument that i'm making and will continue to make. Also happy to concede that I carried on like a tool. This is the only online platform where I get into any debates so I will remain around to continue the good fight.
We continue to **** about with blokes that are part of some fraternity. It's infuriating.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Northern Raider » August 27, 2019, 10:06 am

What about Manly's ability to "handle the niggle"? We completely shut down guys like DCE and Turbo. They struggled to breach our defense for the entire match while we cracked them for 3 tries (I'm counting Wighton's).
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Azza » August 27, 2019, 10:09 am

Manly won, so they handled it better than us.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by PigRickman » August 27, 2019, 10:11 am

Azza wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:09 am
Manly won, so they handled it better than us.
And they routinely win these sorts of games, as do the Sharks.
We routinely find ways to lose these sorts of games, that's, i think, what you're concerned about
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Northern Raider » August 27, 2019, 10:15 am

They didn't win because they handled the niggle better than us.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Azza » August 27, 2019, 10:17 am

Northern Raider wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:15 am
They didn't win because they handled the niggle better than us.
I'm just using the exact same argument you used in the cricket, and I know you won't like it :D

PigRickMan - absolutely agree.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Northern Raider » August 27, 2019, 10:19 am

Azza wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:17 am
Northern Raider wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:15 am
They didn't win because they handled the niggle better than us.
I'm just using the exact same argument you used in the cricket, and I know you won't like it :D

PigRickMan - absolutely agree.
Not quite sure what that has to do with cricket so can't argue.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by PigRickman » August 27, 2019, 10:20 am

Northern Raider wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:15 am
They didn't win because they handled the niggle better than us.
No, they won because we found a way to lose... in large part because we didnt handle the style of game as well as Manly did. We lost our cool and composure at times, they did not.
That's how i saw the game anyways.
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Northern Raider » August 27, 2019, 10:22 am

PigRickman wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:20 am
Northern Raider wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:15 am
They didn't win because they handled the niggle better than us.
No, they won because we found a way to lose... in large part because we didnt handle the style of game as well as Manly did. We lost our cool and composure at times, they did not.
That's how i saw the game anyways.
We lost our cool, no question. I thought a lot of that was because of their defensive structure jamming in on our halves. We struggled to find a way to overcome it. Our tries came more from persistence than anything else.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Azza » August 27, 2019, 10:22 am

Yeah and it's a consistent thing with us. Everytime we come up against a team that plays these spoiling tactics, we've gotten flustered, stopped playing our brand of football, and lost our way. It's extremely frustrating, because I have no doubt we have the game to beat these teams (prime suspects are Sharks and Manly).

As I say the game yesterday reminded me so much of the 2016 final in Canberra, where the Sharks did exactly the same thing to put us off our game and it worked. Croker, Stuart and Hodgson all acknowledged we fell into the trap and didn't stick to the game plan as a result.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by zim » August 27, 2019, 10:32 am

Northern Raider wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:22 am
PigRickman wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:20 am
Northern Raider wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:15 am
They didn't win because they handled the niggle better than us.
No, they won because we found a way to lose... in large part because we didnt handle the style of game as well as Manly did. We lost our cool and composure at times, they did not.
That's how i saw the game anyways.
We lost our cool, no question. I thought a lot of that was because of their defensive structure jamming in on our halves. We struggled to find a way to overcome it. Our tries came more from persistence than anything else.
The irony is the pre-game plan revolved around knowing Manly were going to do exactly that, having a definite strategy to overcome it and then we didn't implement it during the match. Interesting read:
https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/08 ... -for-loss/

Wighton seems to have matured a lot this year.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Azza » August 27, 2019, 10:38 am

Yeah exactly - we *knew* what was coming and still lost composure.

The team has been so much mentally stronger this year, but it wasn't on show Sunday.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Northern Raider » August 27, 2019, 10:39 am

Azza wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:22 am
Yeah and it's a consistent thing with us. Everytime we come up against a team that plays these spoiling tactics, we've gotten flustered, stopped playing our brand of football, and lost our way. It's extremely frustrating, because I have no doubt we have the game to beat these teams (prime suspects are Sharks and Manly).

As I say the game yesterday reminded me so much of the 2016 final in Canberra, where the Sharks did exactly the same thing to put us off our game and it worked. Croker, Stuart and Hodgson all acknowledged we fell into the trap and didn't stick to the game plan as a result.
I agree but also think we're better equipped to deal with it this year, mainly on the back of improved defense. We can afford to be a bit more patient with the ball rather than try to play catch up. On Sunday I felt that Hodgo fell back into the old habit of trying to do too much out of dummy half. If you can't get a quick play the ball at least go for quick service out of dummy half to help overcome it.

With the benefit of hindsight and watching from a comfortable position in front of TV I think we needed to just play hard up the middle. Not only would this counter the edges rushing up it would also help fatigue the opposition middle forwards, especially given they were short on the bench.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Azza » August 27, 2019, 10:41 am

@Northern Raider, I think if you read Wighton's comments in the article above you can see that the team feels much the same way. We didn't keep our cool and Manly got under our skin.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Northern Raider » August 27, 2019, 10:49 am

Azza wrote:
August 27, 2019, 10:41 am
@Northern Raider, I think if you read Wighton's comments in the article above you can see that the team feels much the same way. We didn't keep our cool and Manly got under our skin.
This is correct. I don't think Manly handled it all that well either when they had the ball. They were as disjointed in attack as they could be. In the past DCE and Turbo have torn us apart. Neither could do a thing on Sunday. It was an ugly game for both teams but they got the 2 points.
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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Azza » August 27, 2019, 10:52 am

Yeah but I think that Manly felt we were a real threat if there was a free flowing game of football and felt their best chance of winning was to use spoiling tactics. Part of that was the refereeing, but their tactics in the ruck and standing offside most of the match did not help. Notice how in the last 10 minutes when we started to click into gear they looked in trouble - but by then it was too late.

Anyway, my point is simply that we need to find a way to work our way into the game when these sorts of tactics are used, and quickly - or we aren't going to come good in the big games to come.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by PigRickman » August 27, 2019, 11:08 am

Yeah once we stopped worrying about what they were doing and just played footy and played directly, we were coming over the top of them and another 5-10 minutes i think we not only win the game, we win it running away.

Stuart said in the presser, when we stuck to what we planned to do, we looked the superior team. When we got muddy with them, they out slopped us.
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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Re: Our inability to handle the niggle

Post by Azza » August 27, 2019, 11:13 am

I'd bet on us winning the next time we play Manly as well. I think the team would be pretty sick of losing to them and will be primed for it.

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