The Greenhouse

Northern Raider wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 7:21 pm We just came from 18-0 down to beat the kings of niggle. We're fine at handling it this year.

Refs need to take some responsibility for containing it as well. Manly were happy to keep testing them today and ultimately won that battle.

PigRickman wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 7:10 pm Good! Because we won this game if not for the offside try, which was 8 points!!

But on topic, i dont know, i raised it pre game as a concern for me. I dont think it's about better discipline and mental focus because i think for the most part this team is a focused and disciplined team... but i guess it is a discipline issue, so maybe it falls under that general guise. But it's a little different to that.

We have firey guys. Wighton, Hodgson, Rapana, Beej, Whitehead, Bateman, Hors, hell even Sezer a bit up for it... these are some of our "senior" guys and they are absolutely on it.

I think it's got to made a huge focus from the coach. I dont know how he goes about doing it, maybe it's a monday morning spray, maybe it's a fall guy who gets SHOT OUT OF A ROCKET into mounties for a week and the coach making it clear publicaly and privately its for lack of composure in dealing with the niggle. I dont know but i dont think you can just say "We just gotta be better" and move on

It's an achillies heel and the teams we're competing with know and will use it. We have to be above it.

edwahu wrote:Its not just niggle, it's the way teams spoil the ruck and are constantly offside at key moments in those games.

We can not get sucked into niggle and other than BJ's random effort we didn't get sucked in today from what I could see. What we can't control is how the other spoiling tactics are reffed.

edwahu wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 8:18 pm Its not just niggle, it's the way teams spoil the ruck and are constantly offside at key moments in those games.

We can not get sucked into niggle and other than BJ's random effort we didn't get sucked in today from what I could see. What we can't control is how the other spoiling tactics are reffed.

Azza wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 8:30 pm

edwahu wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 8:18 pm Its not just niggle, it's the way teams spoil the ruck and are constantly offside at key moments in those games.

We can not get sucked into niggle and other than BJ's random effort we didn't get sucked in today from what I could see. What we can't control is how the other spoiling tactics are reffed.

Your first paragraph is exactly how I would describe niggle

Azza wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 8:38 pm That they do. But we are aiming to go from a very good side to being a top tier side and this is the sort of stuff we need to get on top of in order to achieve that

BadnMean wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 9:13 pm What niggle penalties did we cop today?

BJ was out and out dumb, not a reaction to "niggle" as he was free and clear by 50m and 30 seconds of any potential "niggle". That was just BJ warming into the season- BJ being BJ. We all remember the good times but he had to clear his pipes of that stuff too apparently.

I don't remember anything else being factor. I;d say it was a non- niggly game if you ignore the FOX guts trying to build it up and just watch it.

Azza wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 6:49 pm PigRickMan - I'm not going to call you a muppet for saying we weren't going to lose a game again this year, but I will say I had a feeling this would happen today and was curious as to what our response would be. Hodgson and Croker both admitted the team got drawn into it and it threw them off their game. What's the answer? Just better discipline and mental focus?

We will absolutely get targeted by teams using this tactic until we learn to overcome it. It's sad, because it's not footy, but we need to be better than it.

Azza wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 8:30 pm

edwahu wrote: ↑August 25, 2019, 8:18 pm Its not just niggle, it's the way teams spoil the ruck and are constantly offside at key moments in those games.

We can not get sucked into niggle and other than BJ's random effort we didn't get sucked in today from what I could see. What we can't control is how the other spoiling tactics are reffed.

Your first paragraph is exactly how I would describe niggle

• Slow the play the ball down by lying in the ruck

• Slow the play my doing anything in the ruck that delays the play the ball

• Not have your markers square to shut down the outside backs dummy half run (Im looking at you Rapa, why do you insist on taking on the marker - it hasn't been called all year!)

• Rush the ball playing halves and take away their time and space

• Give away a heap of first half penalties meaning you get carte blanche for the duration of the game when the even ups come into play

• Stand offside at strategic times to dictate the direction of play

• give away 2-3 penalties in succession within the red zone to disrupt all flow of the game

• Fire your A or B defender out of the line quick in the the red zone to shut down dummy half passing lanes - how many times do we see Hodgo shape one way only to have to turn to the other side of the field as his options have disappeared?

• Strategically call for stoppage of play for injury/HIA to disrupt momentum of attacking team

edwahu wrote: ↑August 26, 2019, 10:15 am I got sick of wondering about whether some of my assumptions are correct so I went and found the detailed stats for every penalty since 2014. These are the number of ruck and offside penalties conceeded for regular season games over that period (2019 I only have until round 10 at the moment, so I excluded it). Possession differences are very small (2 or 3% max) over that period, so I have not adjusted to account for it.



To me, this reflects how I feel about the way we are reffed. We are not the cleanest team, but at the same time I don't think we are the worst and no way are we so far ahead of certain other teams. Of course you could say, well this is just a penalty a game or less difference in most cases, but when the deviation is as large as it is for over 100+ games in a measure that requires subjective judgement, then you need to consider what other areas you are seeing the same thing occur where stats aren't available.

I also know that the first reaction will be that the Broncos are not penalized, but actually what happens is penalty rates drop off a long way in Broncos games. My first reaction would be to say this is because they are on FTA and Refs are aware of the need to support the spectacle (this bias is identified in other codes already). The other reason could be they draw a ref which consistently calls less ruck and offside penalties (I will look at that stat eventually). Either is still an advantage in my opinion and an example of how bias can creep in without advantaging one team clearly.

By the way, from what I can see Home ground advantage is worth about +20% as far as the rate at which a team gets penalties, and that is consistent no matter what other factors come into it (winning team, ladder position etc).

To me these are the sort of statistics that the NRL should be making transparent and explaining what they do in response.

edwahu wrote: ↑August 26, 2019, 10:15 am I got sick of wondering about whether some of my assumptions are correct so I went and found the detailed stats for every penalty since 2014. These are the number of ruck and offside penalties conceeded for regular season games over that period (2019 I only have until round 10 at the moment, so I excluded it). Possession differences are very small (2 or 3% max) over that period, so I have not adjusted to account for it.



To me, this reflects how I feel about the way we are reffed. We are not the cleanest team, but at the same time I don't think we are the worst and no way are we so far ahead of certain other teams. Of course you could say, well this is just a penalty a game or less difference in most cases, but when the deviation is as large as it is for over 100+ games in a measure that requires subjective judgement, then you need to consider what other areas you are seeing the same thing occur where stats aren't available.

I also know that the first reaction will be that the Broncos are not penalized, but actually what happens is penalty rates drop off a long way in Broncos games. My first reaction would be to say this is because they are on FTA and Refs are aware of the need to support the spectacle (this bias is identified in other codes already). The other reason could be they draw a ref which consistently calls less ruck and offside penalties (I will look at that stat eventually). Either is still an advantage in my opinion and an example of how bias can creep in without advantaging one team clearly.

By the way, from what I can see Home ground advantage is worth about +20% as far as the rate at which a team gets penalties, and that is consistent no matter what other factors come into it (winning team, ladder position etc).

To me these are the sort of statistics that the NRL should be making transparent and explaining what they do in response.

Wiki Special wrote: ↑August 26, 2019, 11:04 am Manly play extremely ugly football and did use niggling tactics yesterday to unsettle us. But I think the below mistakes by the refs were what hurt us;

1. Wighton 'No Try'. I truly believe this was a try in the same vein as Croker's first try last week.

2. Manly being offside before the intercept leading to the 8 point try.

3. Sutton being penalised for an incorrect play the ball. The ref indicated no attempt to use the foot but he clearly did attempt to use the foot.

4. The penalty for incorrect markers when Fonua-Blake walked 3 metres off the mark. Our markers were out of position but because of the opposition indiscretion.

5. The penalty on Whitehead (I think) for stripping just before the Jake T. try. The Manly player just dropped it when we tried to wrap up the offload. Teams will try this tactic going forward.

6. The Manly trainer claiming Boyle needed to be escorted from the field when he clearly wasn't injured just to stop our momentum. Just like the Roosters 2 weeks ago, I see other teams doing this going forward as a tactic.

Basically, I think the refs significantly contributed to the 'niggle' from Manly. If the game was officiated properly we win handsomely.

Matt wrote: ↑August 26, 2019, 1:45 pm

Wiki Special wrote: ↑August 26, 2019, 11:04 am Manly play extremely ugly football and did use niggling tactics yesterday to unsettle us. But I think the below mistakes by the refs were what hurt us;

1. Wighton 'No Try'. I truly believe this was a try in the same vein as Croker's first try last week.

2. Manly being offside before the intercept leading to the 8 point try.

3. Sutton being penalised for an incorrect play the ball. The ref indicated no attempt to use the foot but he clearly did attempt to use the foot.

4. The penalty for incorrect markers when Fonua-Blake walked 3 metres off the mark. Our markers were out of position but because of the opposition indiscretion.

5. The penalty on Whitehead (I think) for stripping just before the Jake T. try. The Manly player just dropped it when we tried to wrap up the offload. Teams will try this tactic going forward.

6. The Manly trainer claiming Boyle needed to be escorted from the field when he clearly wasn't injured just to stop our momentum. Just like the Roosters 2 weeks ago, I see other teams doing this going forward as a tactic.

Basically, I think the refs significantly contributed to the 'niggle' from Manly. If the game was officiated properly we win handsomely.

Mostly I agree, though Whiteheads left shoulder definitely dislodged that ball making the tackle; which ISNT a penalty, but not what was said.

There was one early in the game where they dropped the ball, and complained about a strip and got the ball. I can see team trying this, but its a double edged sword.

BadnMean wrote: ↑August 26, 2019, 1:01 pm

Fantastic research. I genuinely think you should email it to the NRL and ask for a response from Annesly.

At the same time, send it to Daily telegraph and SMH and the Raiders. See if it gets run with.