2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

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Who will win?

Raiders 13+
2
17%
Raiders 1-12
7
58%
Draw
0
No votes
Roosters 1-12
1
8%
Roosters 13+
2
17%
 
Total votes: 12

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BadnMean
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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by BadnMean » August 12, 2019, 8:09 pm

yeh raiders wrote:
August 12, 2019, 7:32 pm
Imagine if the Raiders defended like this forum... we wouldn’t leak a point
So many suspensions though...

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by -TW- » August 12, 2019, 8:12 pm

BadnMean wrote:
yeh raiders wrote:
August 12, 2019, 7:32 pm
Imagine if the Raiders defended like this forum... we wouldn’t leak a point
So many suspensions though...
1000-998 penalty counts would be great

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by afgtnk » August 12, 2019, 8:14 pm

PigRickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 8:09 pm
afgtnk wrote:
August 12, 2019, 7:51 pm
I agree with the Croker loyalists, defensive issues are never Croker's problem, ever.

The players inside and outside him are the ones who have let him down over the past 250 games - not him. He's just the common denominator, that's it.
Croker is at fault for tries, but we're now at a point where people are saying Croker shouldnt follow his inside man in when he comes up, because our system is that Elliott Whitehead wraps around the half and fills in the gap
Its just beyond the realms of logic

Croker isnt perfect and he makes errors like any other. But people who say he's at fault for tries because he comes up and in when Wighton does simply dont understand the first rule of up and in defence. The very first thing every coach will tell their players is when your inside man comes in like that, go in with him and take the next man along, if everyone on the edge does their job you either shut down the play or force the half to make a very good pass under enormus pressure to cut out 2 players to hit the outside man.

I know you and your boys down in the park can make that pass, but very few NRL halves are as good as you fellas.
Look you're probably making a plausible argument here, the problem is if the guy wasn't amongst the favourites of the old clique (there's a throwback) I reckon he'd be bashed from pillar to post.

If certain fans can't see that overall he's weaker than the others in the backline when defending, even after 250 games of experience, then there's not much point to any debate about him. Nothing ever seems to be his fault.

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by PigRickman » August 12, 2019, 8:21 pm

I dont think anyone is actually disputing that defence is probably his biggest weakness as a footballer. I think we all know and accept that, and yes he is probably the weakest defender in the backline, it'd be between him and Beej for sure... beej because of decision making and Croker due to a combination of contact strength and those games where there is shocking decision making.

But people are somewhat living in the past with this too, Croker was a piss poor defender, graduated to a below average defender is now, just... y'know, an average NRL defender for his position.

But when Wighton comes in hard like that, Croker has to go in with him. That's just the rules of the sort of aggressive defence that we're playing. Simo isnt quite there with it, Cotric is EXCELLENT at it, he comes in hard and usually gets his man, and when Beej is back and Cotric is back outside of Croker i think it'll be huge for the cohesion on this.

People looking at wighton jam in and then blaming Croker for jaming in on the second rower and not being a **** super hero capable of covering the block runner and then recovering in time to get James **** Tedesco have lost their friggin minds.
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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by hobbsy » August 12, 2019, 8:41 pm

I still can't believe we are having this discussion in a season where NRL pundits across the board are lauding our defence which is clearly the reason for our success.

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by Green Hornet » August 12, 2019, 8:47 pm

would love an answer on this one.

In the 1st half, CNK went up for a bomb and Tupou pulled out of challenge and turns his back, CNK went flying over the top and lost the ball which resulted in a try for Mitchell. The bunker ruled he was contesting the ball but if you pull out of challenge and then impede player from retrieving the ball, shouldn't this have been a penalty to Canberra?

In the Rabbs/Storm game, Kaufusi had his try disallowed for what seemed to be the same thing and bunker ruled that player was in a position which prevented the defender from getting the ball when it wasn't being contested.

How was the Roosters try allowed?

You will just get coach's exploiting this by having players initially contesting the ball then pull out and deem it to be ok.

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by PigRickman » August 12, 2019, 8:51 pm

:lol:

surely ref...

@Rickman ... shame on the man who falls for this
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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by Billy Walker » August 12, 2019, 8:57 pm

Croker is 4th in the NRL for try causes and the second worse centre for try causes behind Esan bloody Marsters. That is not a below average defender for his position- it is a dead set defensive liability.

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » August 12, 2019, 9:04 pm

Green Hornet wrote:
August 12, 2019, 8:47 pm
would love an answer on this one.

In the 1st half, CNK went up for a bomb and Tupou pulled out of challenge and turns his back, CNK went flying over the top and lost the ball which resulted in a try for Mitchell. The bunker ruled he was contesting the ball but if you pull out of challenge and then impede player from retrieving the ball, shouldn't this have been a penalty to Canberra?

In the Rabbs/Storm game, Kaufusi had his try disallowed for what seemed to be the same thing and bunker ruled that player was in a position which prevented the defender from getting the ball when it wasn't being contested.

How was the Roosters try allowed?

You will just get coach's exploiting this by having players initially contesting the ball then pull out and deem it to be ok.
I agree with you.
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by GreenMachine » August 12, 2019, 9:08 pm

Brew wrote:
August 12, 2019, 5:01 pm
Northern Raider wrote:Well we had a loss that wasn't unexpected. Fortunately other results worked in our favour and we've retained 3rd spot. A critical game will be vs Manly in 2 weeks. A win there would go a long way to securing a top 4 finish. A loss puts us at severe risk of dropping to the bottom half of the 8.

There's a real threat looming from the Eels. They have a relatively soft draw and could win all their remaining games. Fortunately its the Eels so expect them to lose their bundle at some stage.
Question is do you want to finish 4 and play Melbourne in Melbourne or finish 5 or 6 and get a home Semi first?

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Even if you lose in week 1, week 2 your hosting a match in Canberra.

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » August 12, 2019, 9:20 pm

EDIT.

MOD NOTE: Inappropriate comment. Please keep the posting respectful of others.

In addition, if people want to talk about Jarrod Croker's defence... there is a thread for it. Please keep it to one, because users are getting sick of the same argument going around and around in circles in multiple threads. Me too. No more in this thread, thanks.
Last edited by greeneyed on August 12, 2019, 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by The Rickman » August 12, 2019, 9:23 pm

FROG wrote:
FROG wrote:
August 12, 2019, 12:18 pm
Ricknickmen, i dont watch much other (non raiders) rugby league games either these days, but i did catch 5 mins of the storm game and in those 5 mins i saw vinavalu set up a try which was overturned by the vid ref because he jumped too early and impeded the full back. This was despite the fact that he never took his eyes off the ball and ultimately tiped it back. It was the inverse of our decision.. im comfortable if the game wants to protect full backs ability to catch the ball, but it needs to be even remotely consistent. Tupou's was a mandatory penalty imo. he didnt have his eye on the ball and clearly wasnt contesting it, he was there to put pressure on cnk and put him in a dangerous position. That was the difference between the 2 sides
Rickman, i put off EDIT while i wrote this response to your post... you could have at least acknowledged that it wasnt worthy of a response, as you have for other posters.. but alas, you, like the nrl, have their favourites...
Haha sorry Frog, didn’t mean to ignore you, I read your post, just forgot to respond!

I haven’t actually seen the Storm one, I’ll check it out and get back to you shortly
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by The Rickman » August 12, 2019, 9:29 pm

Just watched it Frog, I actually don’t think that should be a penalty either
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » August 12, 2019, 9:40 pm

PigRickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 7:16 pm
CJ42 wrote: generally if they've jumped to contest this year it's fine, but going under a player and not jumping with them, even with eyes on the ball, has been a penalty this year.
The problem with how you guys are viewing this is in this post

There is a massive difference in a player going under a defensive player in the air and a defensive player in the air attacking the football and going over the attacker.
CNK leaves the ground at about 2 metres away from where Topou is standing.
One guy is basically stationary and the other guy is leaping over him for 2 metres away and you want a penalty for the stationary player getting jumped on top off?

Da **** outta here haha
It's on Daniel Tupou to vanish into thin air if he mistimes his chase and stops without initiating any contact.

Seriously though the ball would have hit him if CNK hadn't jumped over him. That's pretty much the definition of competing for the ball. He made no motion to attack the legs of CNK.

CNK also mistimed his leap for the ball which meant he was reaching for it and never had a good grasp. Do we penalise him for being late to the contest?

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by The Rickman » August 12, 2019, 9:51 pm

Honestly, now I’ve seen both decisions, I think they got the Vanivulo one wrong and the Tupou one right.
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by gangrenous » August 12, 2019, 9:56 pm

It’s on Daniel Tupou not to be moving backwards under the landing point of the ball with no vision for what he’s doing.

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by -TW- » August 12, 2019, 9:58 pm

gangrenous wrote:It’s on Daniel Tupou not to be moving backwards under the landing point of the ball with no vision for what he’s doing.
He turned his back not to get a knee through his face..

What else is he meant to do?

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » August 12, 2019, 9:59 pm

So now you can't attack a ball during a day match on account of the sun may get in your eyes? Accidents happen in the game of rugby league.

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by gangrenous » August 12, 2019, 9:59 pm

I think you’ve answered your own question

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by gangrenous » August 12, 2019, 10:01 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote:So now you can't attack a ball during a day match on account of the sun may get in your eyes? Accidents happen in the game of rugby league.
Exactly like head high tackles when the player slips. We don’t penalise those because accidents happen...

Wait a minute...

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by -TW- » August 12, 2019, 10:02 pm

Yeah but if you penalised every accident you'd be playing touch football

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by The Rickman » August 12, 2019, 10:07 pm

The stupid thing about this discussion is if the players were reversed, gangrenous would 100% be arguing that CNK doesn’t have to disappear and it’s not a penalty

Absolutely no doubt in my mind
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » August 12, 2019, 10:09 pm

gangrenous wrote:
August 12, 2019, 10:01 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote:So now you can't attack a ball during a day match on account of the sun may get in your eyes? Accidents happen in the game of rugby league.
Exactly like head high tackles when the player slips. We don’t penalise those because accidents happen...

Wait a minute...
Because the tackle is initiated by the defender. CNK initiated all contact in this instance. Daniel Tupou got to where the ball was landing first and has the right to stand his ground, irrespective of whether he loses sight of the ball.

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by gangrenous » August 12, 2019, 10:19 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
gangrenous wrote:
August 12, 2019, 10:01 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote:So now you can't attack a ball during a day match on account of the sun may get in your eyes? Accidents happen in the game of rugby league.
Exactly like head high tackles when the player slips. We don’t penalise those because accidents happen...

Wait a minute...
Because the tackle is initiated by the defender. CNK initiated all contact in this instance. Daniel Tupou got to where the ball was landing first and has the right to stand his ground, irrespective of whether he loses sight of the ball.
That’s not true. Tupou also jumps. Albeit a smaller aborted jump.

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by gangrenous » August 12, 2019, 10:20 pm

The Rickman wrote:The stupid thing about this discussion is if the players were reversed, gangrenous would 100% be arguing that CNK doesn’t have to disappear and it’s not a penalty

Absolutely no doubt in my mind
That’s what I’d argue if that’s how the refs were calling these.

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » August 12, 2019, 10:21 pm

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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » August 12, 2019, 10:24 pm

Just saw the segment from last week on League Life on Charnze Nicoll-Klokstad, it is right at the end of the show. I will admit it brought a tear to the eyd. Unfortunately, they didn't load it on YouTube.
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Re: 2019 Rd 21 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by RedRaider » August 13, 2019, 6:47 am

The Rickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 10:10 am
Raiders_Pat wrote:
August 12, 2019, 10:06 am
The Rickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 9:47 am
James Tedesco was the difference, and he really is that damn good.
I can't agree with this part, I think they were far more composed than us. We needed better kicking and decision making in areas like fifth tackle options to build pressure but often failed to do so... rushing things and going side to side. Tedesco was good but we were off the mark in those areas, could have been (and have been) better. That was the difference in my eyes anyway.
Tedesco was the difference, if he's not there we win that game, I'm sure of it.
I agree with you there Nickman. I stood and applauded his skill level in setting up 2 tries. One for his pace and one for his vision and passing skill. As a fan of the game, just sensational.

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by FROG » August 13, 2019, 6:51 am

The Rickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 9:29 pm
Just watched it Frog, I actually don’t think that should be a penalty either
I actually think thats the point. One of those decisions was wrong. They cant both be consistent with the rules because the basis for our overturned try was the inverse of the storms overturned no try.

Which side of the fence you sit on is kind of irrelevant. All we want to see is consistency, but the only consistency in the nrl these days is that certain clubs consistently get looked after by the refs

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Are we premiership contenders?

Post by The Rickman » August 13, 2019, 8:26 am

FROG wrote:
The Rickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 9:29 pm
Just watched it Frog, I actually don’t think that should be a penalty either
I actually think thats the point. One of those decisions was wrong. They cant both be consistent with the rules because the basis for our overturned try was the inverse of the storms overturned no try.

Which side of the fence you sit on is kind of irrelevant. All we want to see is consistency, but the only consistency in the nrl these days is that certain clubs consistently get looked after by the refs
I don’t agree with that at all, I just think that there’s so much interpretation within the rules that every ref sees every incident differently. I’m certain they didn’t just rule one way because it’s the roosters vs the raiders and rule the other way because it was Souths against the Storm. Are you saying Souths is protected over the storm?

Interestingly, both decisions were overturned by the video ref... by the way the video ref is supposed to operate probably NEITHER of them should’ve been overturned (grey areas and all that), which would’ve resulted in both decisions being the opposite and we’re STILL having this discussion
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by PigRickman » August 13, 2019, 8:59 am

FROG wrote:
August 13, 2019, 6:51 am
The Rickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 9:29 pm
Just watched it Frog, I actually don’t think that should be a penalty either
I actually think thats the point. One of those decisions was wrong. They cant both be consistent with the rules because the basis for our overturned try was the inverse of the storms overturned no try.
Just not true, FROG.
One was an adjudication about whether a player was tackled in the air, the other was an adjudication about whether a player has been taken off the ball. So actually, you're right, they cant both be consistent because the are fundamentally different rules
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by The Rickman » August 13, 2019, 9:45 am

PigRickman wrote:
August 13, 2019, 8:59 am
FROG wrote:
August 13, 2019, 6:51 am
The Rickman wrote:
August 12, 2019, 9:29 pm
Just watched it Frog, I actually don’t think that should be a penalty either
I actually think thats the point. One of those decisions was wrong. They cant both be consistent with the rules because the basis for our overturned try was the inverse of the storms overturned no try.
Just not true, FROG.
One was an adjudication about whether a player was tackled in the air, the other was an adjudication about whether a player has been taken off the ball. So actually, you're right, they cant both be consistent because the are fundamentally different rules
That's a good point too, they're not even remotely the same ruling. I still think the Storm one was wrong and the Roosters one was right, but what they've ruled in the two instances is completely different acts. Not even sure why people are comparing them.
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by GreenMachine » August 13, 2019, 9:56 am

I'm sorry - I can't get on board with the assumption that Daniel Toupu (a noted flyer, who happened to catch and score off a kick in the same match) wasn't aware of what he was doing...

In other sports (football and basketball for example) putting yourself in place under a flying opponent contesting a ball is a penalty). It's been the same all year with the NRL too.

Your interfering with the play when you have no actual intention of contesting.

The fact that the referee ruled "no try" is testament to this. He saw it the same way.

The video ref almost never reverses that call - certainly not in the many many games I've watched this year in the NRL.

It was a very tough call in a tight match.

I could live with it, if the on field ref made the same call as the video ref, but the fact that it was reversed on review tells me it wasn't a straight forward call.

I'm also not naive enough to believe Daniel Toupu didn't know exactly what he was doing in that moment.

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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by The Rickman » August 13, 2019, 10:05 am

GreenMachine wrote:
August 13, 2019, 9:56 am
I could live with it, if the on field ref made the same call as the video ref, but the fact that it was reversed on review tells me it wasn't a straight forward call.
Honestly, to me this is the most important part of the whole discussion and my biggest gripe about the video ref. The on-field ref called No-Try, the fact we're still debating it today means it's a 50/50 call, so it should have stood as a No Try.

Video refs should only overturn on CLEAR black and white decisions, if there's any grey whatsoever, GO WITH THE ON-FIELD REF. I can at least always cop that, and I can cop it a LOT more than the video seemingly overturning on a whim.
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Re: Are we premiership contenders?

Post by PigRickman » August 13, 2019, 10:07 am

GreenMachine wrote:
August 13, 2019, 9:56 am
In other sports (football and basketball for example) putting yourself in place under a flying opponent contesting a ball is a penalty). It's been the same all year with the NRL too.
Key point of difference, Tupou didnt place himself under CNK
CNK leaped from about 2 metres away and placed himself on top of Tupou. That's the key to this and it's why it was over turned.

CNK put himself into that position, not Tupou
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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