2020 centre and wingers

simo · Post by **simo** » July 17, 2019, 8:27 am

with injury/suspension we dont have to make a decision today, but when it comes to cap management especially with raps off contract, it is something that needs addressing by management.

How do we think our ctw lines up in 2020? Keeping in mind what is the most cost effective solition also as its all about getting the most return on investments

For me, the best value for output would be:
2. Simonson 3. Cotric 4. Bj 5. Rapa.

But of course we cant leave croker out so that either pushes cotric to wing or one of bj or raps out of the side (simonsons salary:output ratio far too valuable)

Botman · Post by **Botman** » July 17, 2019, 8:35 am

2. Cotric 3. Croker 4. Beej 5. Rapa or Simo if he leaves.

Next.

The Nickman · Post by **The Nickman** » July 17, 2019, 8:36 am

This is just the Croker thread all over again, but it’s got a new hat

simo · Post by **simo** » July 17, 2019, 8:39 am

The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:36 am This is just the Croker thread all over again, but it’s got a new hat

No its not. Its an actual decision the clubs gotta make with rapana off contract.
Just interested to see what most people think is best cap wise

BadnMean · Post by **BadnMean** » July 17, 2019, 9:45 am

PigRickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:35 am 2. Cotric 3. Croker 4. Beej 5. Rapa or Simo if he leaves.

Next.

This.

Cotric made origin as a winger and is only 20. He'll be cool with another season on the wing and he's damn good at it. He'll have realised he gets more ball and work on the wing really too.

Croker has had enough rippers this year to have shoved it in all our stupid faces who wanted to move him.

BJ. I'm not so sure he'll be good to go or like he was so this could be Simo's chance to get back in (Cotric#4, Simo#2) but he is first choice of the whole 3/4 line if fit and raring.

Rapana. His output isn't as good and he's been injury disrupted but he's still an excellent winger and probably one moment away from clicking again. Simonsson will probably see time in this spot through injury anyway or could push him for his spot even if he shines at Mounties and Rapa continues to battle a bit.

We might even see Simmonson on the bench some games. He plays FB for mounties so just coming on and sniffing around the ball in support, taking some carries and scooting dummy half if it's on perhaps. Ricky will have an off season to think about it.

The Nickman · Post by **The Nickman** » July 17, 2019, 9:47 am

simo wrote:
The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:36 am This is just the Croker thread all over again, but it’s got a new hat
No its not. Its an actual decision the clubs gotta make with rapana off contract.
Just interested to see what most people think is best cap wise

Let’s just see where this discussion goes, shall we??

I think we pretty much already know

Botman · Post by **Botman** » July 17, 2019, 9:49 am

I think Cap wise, if Rapana is willing to stay for 400-450k, keeping him makes the most sense and then we've got Simmonson to play when CNK, Rapana, Cotric, Beej or Croker are unavailable due to injury/suspension/rep duties... which probably means he's playing more than half the season in firsts

And you kick the can down the road for a year or two and see what happens. We dont yet know what Beej is going to come back like, and if that neck is going to diminish him as a player or be an on going issue that results in him missing games regularly as management. Does CNK develop the parts of his game he needs to to be the sort of fullback required in today's game (IMO anyways). If we keep Rapana, is his recent injury history a bad run or just his style taking it's toll

So there is a lot of unknowns, and it would make most sense to keep Raps if the salary cap allows and just go for the title.

If Raps wants top dollar, and he's entitled to want that given his level of play. We may have to make the tough but necessary decision to let him walk and go full steam ahead with Simmonson

simo · Post by **simo** » July 17, 2019, 9:54 am

The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:47 am
simo wrote:
The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:36 am This is just the Croker thread all over again, but it’s got a new hat
No its not. Its an actual decision the clubs gotta make with rapana off contract.
Just interested to see what most people think is best cap wise
Let’s just see where this discussion goes, shall we??

I think we pretty much already know

So far its just you who hasn’t contributed anything of worth...

GreenMachine · Post by **GreenMachine** » July 17, 2019, 10:13 am

1. CNK
2. Simonsson
3. Cotric
4. BJ
5. Croker

Sadly, I don't think we should pay overs for Rapana.
I can see Cotric really developing as a centre when he's 23 - 24. So there is no rush to make the switch right now, he has time. The club should be smart though and ensure he understands he has a future in the centres.
I think Croker would take unders on a long term deal to remain a one club man and eventually take the NRL scoring record.

Ronny P · Post by **Ronny P** » July 17, 2019, 10:15 am

Dont sell Smith-Shields short. That young fella can play! I would be pushing him into top 30 over Kris any day or maybe in for Abbey!

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zim · Post by **zim** » July 17, 2019, 10:16 am

Stick was really confident Rapana was staying. His words were along the lines of "Yep, love him. Certain to stay." For me that pretty much moves it into George Williams territory.

As the pig said
1. CNK
2. Cotric
3. Croker
4. Leilua
5. Rapana

With Simo as backup for anyone going down. Simo as first choice backup with that flexibility Cotric provides is a great position to be in.

Botman · Post by **Botman** » July 17, 2019, 10:25 am

Yeah basically Simo is going to play anytime a back is out.
Because if it's CNK, you'd move Raps or Cotric there, with Simo playing the wing, if one of the wingers is out, he's an easy swap and if one of the centres is out, Cotric goes in and Simo takes his wing spot

If that's how it plays out, Simo will end up playing in 60% of games unless we get very lucky

Post by **greeneyed** » July 17, 2019, 10:58 am

PigRickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:49 am I think Cap wise, if Rapana is willing to stay for 400-450k, keeping him makes the most sense and then we've got Simmonson to play when CNK, Rapana, Cotric, Beej or Croker are unavailable due to injury/suspension/rep duties... which probably means he's playing more than half the season in firsts

If Raps wants top dollar, and he's entitled to want that given his level of play. We may have to make the tough but necessary decision to let him walk and go full steam ahead with Simmonson

Those are the only choices really. Hopefully Jordan Rapana stays.

GreenMachine · Post by **GreenMachine** » July 17, 2019, 11:01 am

Hopefully Rapana does stay, but I wouldn't overextend for him at his age and with his injury history.

Simonsson is the future we would be crazy to lose him.

yeh raiders · Post by **yeh raiders** » July 17, 2019, 11:12 am

Given we have an upgraded half coming next year, we’d be crazy not to go all in and fight to keep Rapana.

The Nickman · Post by **The Nickman** » July 17, 2019, 11:40 am

simo wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:54 am
The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:47 am
simo wrote:
The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:36 am This is just the Croker thread all over again, but it’s got a new hat
No its not. Its an actual decision the clubs gotta make with rapana off contract.
Just interested to see what most people think is best cap wise
Let’s just see where this discussion goes, shall we??

I think we pretty much already know
So far its just you who hasn’t contributed anything of worth...

Well then this is my team for Round 1 next year provided everyone is fit and Rapana stays:

1. CNK
2. Cotric
3. Croker
4. Joey
5. Rapana

Happy now??

Finchy · Post by **Finchy** » July 17, 2019, 11:57 am

The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 11:40 am
simo wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:54 am
The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:47 am
simo wrote:
The Rickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:36 am This is just the Croker thread all over again, but it’s got a new hat
No its not. Its an actual decision the clubs gotta make with rapana off contract.
Just interested to see what most people think is best cap wise
Let’s just see where this discussion goes, shall we??

I think we pretty much already know
So far its just you who hasn’t contributed anything of worth...
Well then this is my team for Round 1 next year provided everyone is fit and Rapana stays:

1. CNK
2. Cotric
3. Croker
4. Joey
5. Rapana

Happy now??

Some would say there's too much Croker and not enough Simonsson...

Billy Walker · Post by **Billy Walker** » July 17, 2019, 12:08 pm

1 - CNK
2 - Simmo
3 - Cotric
4 - BJ
5 - Oldfield/or new winger

Use the Raps and Croker $$ to recruit another marquee forward.

I don’t expect others to agree with me - but that’s what I would do!

MrPosh · Post by **MrPosh** » July 17, 2019, 8:14 pm

Need to think about goal kicking, too. With Sezer and Sam Williams not likely to be on the pitch (or at the club in on of those cases), Croker is the only goal kicker.

Anyone else done much goal kicking? Fairly sure it won't be George Williams - Wigan have had some real problems there for the last two or three years and he's never been the answer.

Northern Raider · Post by **Northern Raider** » July 17, 2019, 8:27 pm

MrPosh wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:14 pm Need to think about goal kicking, too. With Sezer and Sam Williams not likely to be on the pitch (or at the club in on of those cases), Croker is the only goal kicker.

Anyone else done much goal kicking? Fairly sure it won't be George Williams - Wigan have had some real problems there for the last two or three years and he's never been the answer.

Good point Poshman. It appears some are happy to let all our goal kickers go with no plans for a replacement.

Botman · Post by **Botman** » July 17, 2019, 8:32 pm

We dont have to worry about goalkicking. Croker isnt going anywhere, so this dicussion, if it is indeed what the OP intends and for this to be a real discussion about the outside backs moving forward, the one thing we should just put in pen is Croker at centre. Because that's were he'll be, Stuart has no interest in moving him on at all and the haters will just kind of have to suck on that a little bit.

The questions are really at 2, 4 and 5.

kiwi raider · Post by **kiwi raider** » July 17, 2019, 8:56 pm

Billy Walker wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 12:08 pm 1 - CNK
2 - Simmo
3 - Cotric
4 - BJ
5 - Oldfield/or new winger

Use the Raps and Croker $$ to recruit another marquee forward.

I don’t expect others to agree with me - but that’s what I would do!

Massive risk and would be to big for me to take, we could go from having one of the best backline in the comp to one of the worst with a couple of injuries/loss of form, what happens if BJ's neck injury flares up/hes not the same player, CNK and Simmonson could yet suffer 2nd year syndrome and be shut down easier next year with opposition teams being more aware of them

Post by **Matt** » July 17, 2019, 9:22 pm

PigRickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:49 am I think Cap wise, if Rapana is willing to stay for 400-450k, keeping him makes the most sense and then we've got Simmonson to play when CNK, Rapana, Cotric, Beej or Croker are unavailable due to injury/suspension/rep duties... which probably means he's playing more than half the season in firsts

And you kick the can down the road for a year or two and see what happens. We dont yet know what Beej is going to come back like, and if that neck is going to diminish him as a player or be an on going issue that results in him missing games regularly as management. Does CNK develop the parts of his game he needs to to be the sort of fullback required in today's game (IMO anyways). If we keep Rapana, is his recent injury history a bad run or just his style taking it's toll

So there is a lot of unknowns, and it would make most sense to keep Raps if the salary cap allows and just go for the title.

If Raps wants top dollar, and he's entitled to want that given his level of play. We may have to make the tough but necessary decision to let him walk and go full steam ahead with Simmonson

This, in a nutshell.

BJ is a huge unknown. His body might never be right.

Rapa's injury list is a long one, remembering he still has a metal plate in his skull. He is also about to be the wrong side of 30.

Simmo has proven more than handy as an NRL winger.

CNK has been infectious for the team. Can he sustain that over multiple years? Can he develop his game? Support play? Ball skills? Etc.

Walter · Post by **Walter** » July 17, 2019, 9:28 pm

I admit I haven’t kept a close eye on news but I have wondered if BJ might not come back at all. It’s a pretty serious injury.

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Post by **Matt** » July 17, 2019, 9:29 pm

kiwi raider wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:56 pm
Billy Walker wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 12:08 pm 1 - CNK
2 - Simmo
3 - Cotric
4 - BJ
5 - Oldfield/or new winger

Use the Raps and Croker $$ to recruit another marquee forward.

I don’t expect others to agree with me - but that’s what I would do!
Massive risk and would be to big for me to take, we could go from having one of the best backline in the comp to one of the worst with a couple of injuries/loss of form, what happens if BJ's neck injury flares up/hes not the same player, CNK and Simmonson could yet suffer 2nd year syndrome and be shut down easier next year with opposition teams being more aware of them

This is what Manly have done, and the Titans, and the Dogs, and Dragons. How's that working out for 3 out of 4?

Bennett has worked out his backs needed bolstering, so he poached Jimmy the Jet and now wants Isaako.

You can't cheap out across the board. 1 or 2 maybe. Not 3 or 4. Same goes for props.

Botman · Post by **Botman** » July 17, 2019, 9:33 pm

Walter wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 9:28 pm I admit I haven’t kept a close eye on news but I have wondered if BJ might not come back at all. It’s a pretty serious injury.

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When he first did it i had heard a little whisper that he was no sure thing to return from it at all. That seems to have been a little premature and he's back doing some stuff as i understand it but very unlikely to be back this year
It was a very serious injury and the type that has really limited players in the past. Jimmy Tamau went from world beater to average after his neck

Post by **Matt** » July 17, 2019, 9:33 pm

PigRickman wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:32 pm We dont have to worry about goalkicking. Croker isnt going anywhere, so this dicussion, if it is indeed what the OP intends and for this to be a real discussion about the outside backs moving forward, the one thing we should just put in pen is Croker at centre. Because that's were he'll be, Stuart has no interest in moving him on at all and the haters will just kind of have to suck on that a little bit.

The questions are really at 2, 4 and 5.

Agreed.
Croker will be the Raiders all time everything, and the NRL points and possibly goals record holder when he hangs up the boots, injuries permitting.

The Nickman · Post by **The Nickman** » July 17, 2019, 9:39 pm

PigRickman wrote:We dont have to worry about goalkicking. Croker isnt going anywhere, so this dicussion, if it is indeed what the OP intends and for this to be a real discussion about the outside backs moving forward, the one thing we should just put in pen is Croker at centre. Because that's were he'll be, Stuart has no interest in moving him on at all and the haters will just kind of have to suck on that a little bit.

The questions are really at 2, 4 and 5.

And not just the coach either, he’d be the first bloke I’m pencilling in there every week too, and I’m sure a large majority of our fans agree

Neeeegz · Post by **Neeeegz** » July 17, 2019, 9:46 pm

Croker is not leaving or changing from centre anytime soon. We are down to our 4th choice right centre this week and he's a solid replacement. The squad is healthy ish...

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Neeeegz · Post by **Neeeegz** » July 17, 2019, 9:52 pm

PigRickman wrote:We dont have to worry about goalkicking. Croker isnt going anywhere, so this dicussion, if it is indeed what the OP intends and for this to be a real discussion about the outside backs moving forward, the one thing we should just put in pen is Croker at centre. Because that's were he'll be, Stuart has no interest in moving him on at all and the haters will just kind of have to suck on that a little bit.

The questions are really at 2, 4 and 5.

It makes me feel weird liking what you say, who are you and what did you do with pigricknickman?

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Seiffert82 · Post by **Seiffert82** » July 17, 2019, 10:50 pm

kiwi raider wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:56 pm
Billy Walker wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 12:08 pm 1 - CNK
2 - Simmo
3 - Cotric
4 - BJ
5 - Oldfield/or new winger

Use the Raps and Croker $$ to recruit another marquee forward.

I don’t expect others to agree with me - but that’s what I would do!
Massive risk and would be to big for me to take, we could go from having one of the best backline in the comp to one of the worst with a couple of injuries/loss of form, what happens if BJ's neck injury flares up/hes not the same player, CNK and Simmonson could yet suffer 2nd year syndrome and be shut down easier next year with opposition teams being more aware of them

From the clubs POV, this is where the debate starts and ends IMO. They are not cutting Croker (nor should they) when the other starting centre is under such a long term injury cloud.

Rapa is due a big payday and with Simonsson showing great ability, I think the only smart move from a cap perspective is bringing him in to replace Rapana.

Lui_Bon · Post by **Lui_Bon** » July 17, 2019, 11:14 pm

Seiffert82 wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 10:50 pm
kiwi raider wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 8:56 pm
Billy Walker wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 12:08 pm 1 - CNK
2 - Simmo
3 - Cotric
4 - BJ
5 - Oldfield/or new winger

Use the Raps and Croker $$ to recruit another marquee forward.

I don’t expect others to agree with me - but that’s what I would do!
Massive risk and would be to big for me to take, we could go from having one of the best backline in the comp to one of the worst with a couple of injuries/loss of form, what happens if BJ's neck injury flares up/hes not the same player, CNK and Simmonson could yet suffer 2nd year syndrome and be shut down easier next year with opposition teams being more aware of them
From the clubs POV, this is where the debate starts and ends IMO. They are not cutting Croker (nor should they) when the other starting centre is under such a long term injury cloud.

Rapa is due a big payday and with Simonsson showing great ability, I think the only smart move from a cap perspective is bringing him in to replace Rapana.

Before I address your post, I'm taking it that Matt is agreeing with Kiwi R that we can't get rid of quality backs to sign another forward? If so I concur.

And so S82, are you saying Jordie deserves a big payday and so if we can't come through he should take the money elsewhere? (or meekly go to Mounties - I'm not having a go) If so, then yeah who could blame him but there's at least one problem, being that who else would offer him big money? I have no idea how long his contract is (because I'm too lazy to do basic research) but I can't really see him wanting to go anywhere, either.

But most importantly, I reckon he's a vital piece of the current club culture and telling blokes like him to move on with the best offer is exactly the sort of thing we shouldn't be doing. Sia is in the same boat - you don't tell them to rack off, you find a way to keep them in your system even if it involves a fair bit of Mounties. Otherwise you end up with more mercenaries and more atrocities, not to mention the corrosive effect on anyone else, both present and future. So even if if Rapana (and Sia) are not looking as good as they did a year or two ago, they have to be managed right or no one else will want to stay or join either...

Then again, maybe I know nothing about running a club or maintaining club culture.

BadnMean · Post by **BadnMean** » July 17, 2019, 11:48 pm

Lui_Bon wrote: ↑July 17, 2019, 11:14 pm I have no idea how long his contract is (because I'm too lazy to do basic research) but I can't really see him wanting to go anywhere, either.

But most importantly, I reckon he's a vital piece of the current club culture and telling blokes like him to move on with the best offer is exactly the sort of thing we shouldn't be doing. Sia is in the same boat - you don't tell them to rack off, you find a way to keep them in your system even if it involves a fair bit of Mounties. Otherwise you end up with more mercenaries and more atrocities, not to mention the corrosive effect on anyone else, both present and future. So even if if Rapana (and Sia) are not looking as good as they did a year or two ago, they have to be managed right or no one else will want to stay or join either...

Rapa's contract is up at the end of this season- hence this discussion. It's a pressing and relevant issue.

No, the club is not a soup kitchen. They do not owe any player a pension fund in a 30 man roster. Players get the accolades, the fame, the knocks, the injuries, the cheers, the mates, the pressure, the media, the chance to play a sport they love for a living and be paid yearly sums that are near enough an order of magnitude what many Australians live on.

Outstanding individuals should be kept around the club and community in roles suited to their talents I agree. But not as a player once they no longer make sense toward the overall goal- premiership success. They understand that. Or they understand reduced dollars on a final contract but the goodwill of a club and community can mean bigger and longer dollars down the line if they are smart and remain engaged with the club and have something to offer. Many,many players have realised that too.
If they WANT to play a year on minimum at Mounties, sure. But not if it keeps a young player out of a spot.

Rapana gambled on squeezing more dollars out of the club. As is his right. He didn't say "I love the place, I'll play for any good wage"- he refused a big $$$ offer to try and earn more. He played hardball. As the club also has to do. Jordy lost that gamble. Simo has killed it. Jordy's been injured and short of top form. Now he can take the reduced offer as a result of losing his gamble or take the $$$ elsewhere.

It's corrosive to let managers hold the club over a barrel when it comes to contracts. There was no loyalty or sentiment on his managers side when he thought 500k was a bit light on. Is it corrosive to say the club did what it had to do to remain competitive in the future and hold on to talent that WAS staying with the club? No. They money got allocated to 2nd preferences when Jordy rejected it.

Lui_Bon · Post by **Lui_Bon** » July 18, 2019, 12:23 am

Fair enough.

I've not been paying attention to what the Rapana contract situation is. Specifically I wasn't aware or had forgotten, that he'd rejected some contract offer. I'd prefer not to think about the corrosive effect of a player manager, but if that's what they have effectively done - gambled and lost - then yes, I agree. I wouldn't say Simmonson has killed it but he's been pretty darned good and obviously there's a weighing up of potential versus expected achievement (I mean, what Bailey may offer v what we could pretty much expect from Jordan) which may be a hard result for fans of the old guy...

I guess what I wanted to say was that sometimes it's worth considering, in these fantasy-football-level discussions, what a person brings to the club beyond pure onfield performance. I doubt it's a very long elastic band but it's not non-existent, it's still a contributing factor to an ongoing club culture. So yeah, if Jordie is prepared to either have few or more weeks in Mounties, or more pertinently be on a lower annual salary, that's great - I didn't, as I said, know where his contract was up to. If he's not, then sure, let him see what other club might want to pay him the salary he expects, but jees don't make it look like he's on the outer for accountancy's sake. Even if he is. I just admire him for the remarks he made about Dugan and Ferguson, and would like to think that a club could keep links to their non-D&F players. As you say, at least in a non-playing capacity.

afgtnk · Post by **afgtnk** » July 18, 2019, 2:23 am

Each situation is different.

Jordy was out of the game for a long time. He came back at an older age and it wasn't until he was 26-27 to get to the level where he's at now - remember he was barely considered a first grader prospect when he joined us. He's now quickly coming towards the twilight of his career without ever really having a big pay day. I absolutely think we should do as much as we can to keep him; however, I would never begrudge a guy in his position to maximise his earnings with what will be his one and only chance at a big contract.

These guys put their bodies on the line each game, sacrificing their health and putting themselves at risk. A lot of them don't get paid very well for it. He deserves to look after himself financially and if we aren't able to come to the party by giving him roughly what he can earn elsewhere, that should not be held against him if he chooses to leave.