Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

gangrenous wrote:JWH is playing this week after another grub act. That is unfair.

Personally I think Cotric should still have 4-5 weeks with no priors for that tackle. I don’t think it’s intentional, but it doesn’t matter, there has to be strong disincentive to get that result out of the game. I don’t think 3 weeks quite cuts that.
I think it absolutely cuts it, because it was an accident, it’s not his go, and he doesn’t have a history of this sort of stuff. If he does it again, then it should be more heavily penalised.

I think the judiciary/MRC has spot on got it right this time, I’m with Seiff here, it’s a good system
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by gangrenous »

I agree it cuts it. But for me that’s a 6-7 week suspension he gets discounted to 4-5
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

gangrenous wrote:I agree it cuts it. But for me that’s a 6-7 week suspension he gets discounted to 4-5
I probably agree with you there, the worst kind of dangerous throw should be more than 5 weeks.

8 should be the base charge, which would mean Cotric is looking at about 5, and someone like Warea-Hergreaves would be looking at about 12

Saying all that though, it’s not like it needs stamping out of the game, tackles like Cotric’s are pretty rare these days. Everyone knows it’s a no go
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

But Cotric is definitely lucky to be only getting 3 weeks, I’m very glad about that at the end of the day

I thought it was going to be much, much worse
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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gangrenous wrote: July 17, 2019, 7:54 am Personally I think Cotric should still have 4-5 weeks with no priors for that tackle. I don’t think it’s intentional, but it doesn’t matter, there has to be strong disincentive to get that result out of the game. I don’t think 3 weeks quite cuts that.
Yeah i agree
Ive got no problem with it in context of this system. Like this is what it is, and for whatever the reason, the NRL has determined that sort of tackle has a base of 500 points and that means a guy like Nic Cotric gets 3 weeks and JWH would be facing 8... within this system, that's the right decision.

I dont think the worst dangerous throw should be a base of 500 points. I think it should be 750 points, meaning a clean skin like Nick would be getting 5 weeks, and JWH would be looking at 10+. I dont think the base points for these tackles are harsh enough. But that's just me and that's a different discussion to this one.

Edited: Ugh. **** itall

That'll teach me for not reading the entire thread first
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

PigRickman wrote:
gangrenous wrote: July 17, 2019, 7:54 am Personally I think Cotric should still have 4-5 weeks with no priors for that tackle. I don’t think it’s intentional, but it doesn’t matter, there has to be strong disincentive to get that result out of the game. I don’t think 3 weeks quite cuts that.
Yeah i agree
Ive got no problem with it in context of this system. Like this is what it is, and for whatever the reason, the NRL has determined that sort of tackle has a base of 500 points and that means a guy like Nic Cotric gets 3 weeks and JWH would be facing 8... within this system, that's the right decision.

I dont think the worst dangerous throw should be a base of 500 points. I think it should be 750 points, meaning a clean skin like Nick would be getting 5 weeks, and JWH would be looking at 10+. I dont think the base points for these tackles are harsh enough. But that's just me and that's a different discussion to this one.

Edited: Ugh. **** itall

That'll teach me for not reading the entire thread first
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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Hahahaha delicious
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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Haha, **** ridiculous.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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Matching cycles, brother. Matching cycles ;)
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Northern Raider »

Wow, this is going on and on. As I showed earlier in the thread, this tackled was virtually identical action to Ofahengaue tackle 2 years ago. He also copped a Grade 3 Dangerous Throw and received 3 weeks after early plea and no loading or carry over points. As much as it pains me to say it, the MRC has shown to be totally consistent in this case.

The only variable was the decision to send off by the on field officials. I'm totally OK with that as long as this new standard is maintained.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by gerg »

PigRickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: July 16, 2019, 10:42 pm The first two I concede but the last one (origin) is by far the worst. One tackler lifts him up and the second tackler drags him straight back down head first. Anything could have happened there.

That's 3 in 2016 and a 'fan video' is hardly definitive of the season as a whole. So a minimum of 3 in one year... But I guess 2016 was an outlier and no other dangerous tackles have occurred - or at least 7 more - in how long... How long did you say you've been watching the game?

To use your own phrase here, you're not really going to die on this hill are you?

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So far between the two of you geniuses, you’ve managed to find about 3-4 tackles in the same style as Nic’a and two tackles (the ones I nominated to begin with!) that are worst

Since 1980.
Yeah I think you guys have done a tremendous job proving my point that this tackle was indeed one of the worst we’ve seen in the NRL era

The real question here is why on earth are you so determined to downplay this?
The ruling has been made and the sentence passed down... and to end? If you find 10-20 even 30 tackles (which you can’t seem to do) that we’d all agree are worst like the LOD tackle, how does that prove this isn’t one of the worst seen?

A top 30 dangerous tackle since 1998, in which we’ve probably seen in excess of 3million tackles completed, would still be justified in being described as one of the worst we’ve seen

This utterly strange behaviour
You said we wouldn't be able to find 10 in the time you had watched the game, but didn't actually say how long you had watched the game. A 5 minute YouTube search - which I say again - is not a comprehensive list - finds 3 worse ones in a single season.

Now the number is 30? Where the hell will these goalposts end up?

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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Botman »

gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 8:49 am You said we wouldn't be able to find 10 in the time you had watched the game,
And you're still yet to do that.
gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 8:49 am Now the number is 30? Where the hell will these goalposts end up?
No, the number is still 10.
I'm just making the point that even if the number WAS 30, and you could find 30 (and you cant, since you cant even find 10).
Nick Cotric's tackle being the 31st worst tackle in NRL (1998 to present) history, in which some 2.8m (rough calculation based on last years total tackle figures) tackles have been made, would still be justified in being described as one of the worst tackles we've seen

Even 31st in 2,800,000 means that tackle is worse than 99.99889286% of tackles made.

It would mean that we should expect to see, on average, roughly 90,000 tackles made before we see one that bad again
Like what the **** are you even talking about?


Good grief.

(And fwiw, i think a youtube clip entitled "2016 NRL - Biggest hits/spear tackles" is probably covering off nicely all the dangerous throw tackles in year, since that's specifically stated in it's title :lol: )
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by greeneyed »

That’s why there is no careless, reckless or intentional categories for dangerous throws. Intent is irrelevant dangerous throws and that’s as it should be.

BTW, the debate in this thread last night was stimulated by whether Cotric’s tackle should have been graded two or three. Ricky Stuart was clearly of the view Cotric’s tackle should not have been in the worst graded category. Some in the media claimed it was the worst tackle since the 1970s, some said the 1980s, some here said 10 years. The videos were offered to show all those claims were wrong, that there were worse tackles simply put on report, and Ricky Stuart was indeed correct.

It’s all done and dusted now... as the club and player took the early plea. The Raiders almost always do that. I actually think it’s a problem with the judiciary system, as it encourages clubs and players to seek certain outcomes rather than just ones. And that potentially leads to more unjust outcomes later, as priors come into play.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by GreenMachine »

Definitely backing Ricky here. That was not a 'spear tackle' and not even close to the worst 'throws' or lifting type tackles I've seen in 40 odd years of watching football.

Start with the fundamentals - the hands were not between the legs and there was no driving of the head into the ground.

Nick loses his balance and drops him on his upper back, after what was initially a nice copybook ribs drive. He was going for a back slam, but the forward momentum created a lift.

Yes it's a judiciary charge and probably a 2-3 week lay off.

Never a send off - not unless the rules changed and now you will be sent off for lifting an opponent and dropping them awkwardly. If this is the new approach then we should see more send offs in the coming weeks.

On a separate note the JWH result leaves a bad taste in the mouth considering his priors.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by greeneyed »

I think that's another issue with the judicial system in the NRL. The judiciary is on a completely different page to the match review committee. There's a better than even chance that if you go to the judiciary, the case is dismissed or the charge reduced. I recognise that the population is biased, as cases that go to the judiciary are those where clubs are either very certain of their ground, or they're very determined/desperate, or the charge doesn't involve extra time if you go to the judiciary (which sometimes happens).

I'm certain that if the Raiders went more often to the judiciary, they'd get better average outcomes in terms of weeks missed on suspension.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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greeneyed wrote: July 17, 2019, 10:53 am I think that's another issue with the judicial system in the NRL. The judiciary is on a completely different page to the match review committee. There's a better than even chance that if you go to the judiciary, the case is dismissed or the charge reduced. I recognise that the population is biased, as cases that go to the judiciary are those where clubs are either very certain of their ground, or they're very determined/desperate, or the charge doesn't involve extra time if you go to the judiciary (which sometimes happens).

I'm certain that if the Raiders went more often to the judiciary, they'd get better average outcomes in terms of weeks missed on suspension.
I agree with you... the MRC seems to get it wrong a LOT and come up with wrong and very inconsistent charges, however the judiciary seems to get it right more often than not.

Lucky for us, I think the MRC got it spot on this time, meaning there was no need for the judiciary to confirm it. And I think that's why the club hasn't bothered to fight it, 3 weeks is absolutely spot on.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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PigRickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 8:49 am You said we wouldn't be able to find 10 in the time you had watched the game,
And you're still yet to do that.
gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 8:49 am Now the number is 30? Where the hell will these goalposts end up?
No, the number is still 10.
I'm just making the point that even if the number WAS 30, and you could find 30 (and you cant, since you cant even find 10).
Nick Cotric's tackle being the 31st worst tackle in NRL (1998 to present) history, in which some 2.8m (rough calculation based on last years total tackle figures) tackles have been made, would still be justified in being described as one of the worst tackles we've seen

Even 31st in 2,800,000 means that tackle is worse than 99.99889286% of tackles made.

It would mean that we should expect to see, on average, roughly 90,000 tackles made before we see one that bad again
Like what the **** are you even talking about?


Good grief.

(And fwiw, i think a youtube clip entitled "2016 NRL - Biggest hits/spear tackles" is probably covering off nicely all the dangerous throw tackles in year, since that's specifically stated in it's title Image )
Okay so 10 it is huh.

So before I list them - from reviewing the Rugby League annual - I can see the video clip titled 2016 biggest hits (made by a fan) cannot be correct. From what I can tell the Peachey lifting tackle was actually in 2015 and attracted a grade 2 charge. The Thaiday tackle I'm not sure that was in 2016 either - and secondly Thaiday did not receive a grade 2 for that tackle. (Grade 1 is the highest dangerous throw charge he has received in the years I reviewed). And as a segue that is why I compiled a list of grade 2, or above dangerous throw charges. Because you agreed that those two were in the 'spectrum'. So rather than listing the grade ones (Thaidays) I've gone two and above. I'm sure you're following me here considering you're a statistics man. The State of Origin tackle in the clip I can only assume is the Merrin, grade 2, listed below.

Now unfortunately I don't have a copy of the 2018 annual so I reviewed 2017 back to 2014. And like I alluded to above and previously YouTube is not a comprehensive (or accurate) reflection so I'm relying on the charges instead of the clips.

2017
Ofahengaue grade 3
2016
Tapau grade 2
2015
Merrin (NSW) grade 2
Bird (Anzac test) grade 2
Paulo grade 3
Robinson grade 2
Fifita grade 3
Heighnington grade 3
Bird (8 week suspension referred straight to judiciary)
Peachey grade 2
Jackson grade 2
2014
Reynolds (NSW) grade 2
Watmough (NSW) grade 2
*McLean - found guilty of a grade 2
Lousi grade 2
White grade 2
Simona grade 2
Korisau grade 2
Bird grade 3
Hampton grade 2
T. Sims grade 2
Laumope grade 3
Paulo grade 2
Tagataese grade 3
Wright grade 3
Falloon grade 2
Kingston grade 2

So this doesn't include the 2 Fa'aosa tackles on GI (video linked earlier in this discussion). Was probably referred straight to judiciary

Noting that the most dangerous tackle in probably the history of the game was regarded as a grade 2 (McLean) adds weight to using grade 2 as a barometer - but even if you remove the grade 2s there are 8 grade 3s on the list (excluding Bird and Fa'aosa judiciary referral) from 4 years of rugby league in this country.

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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

fergrenous has completely lost the plot here, I'm afraid
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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Oh. The Peanut gallery, right on cue.

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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Northern Raider »

Interesting stat from that list is 0 X Grade 1 charges.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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Northern Raider wrote:Interesting stat from that list is 0 X Grade 1 charges.
I didn't include them, because there is a lot. I thought I explained why I had selected 2 and above, despite Nick conceding that the Thaiday tackle in the clip - was in the spectrum - yet graded a 1.

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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Northern Raider »

gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:18 pm
Northern Raider wrote:Interesting stat from that list is 0 X Grade 1 charges.
I didn't include them, because there is a lot. I thought I explained why I had selected 2 and above, despite Nick conceding that the Thaiday tackle in the clip - was in the spectrum - yet graded a 1.

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OK, explains it then. thnx

I guess the other obvious thing is the significant decline in serious charges. Obviously the techniques being coached have changed with the times.
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Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

Haha gerg, can you even tell us the point you’re trying to argue at present? I’ve literally lost track

Are you saying Cotric’s tackle shouldn’t have been a Grade 3?

I’ve somehow lost the point you’re trying to make amongst the nonsensical ramblings.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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The Rickman wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:30 pm Haha gerg, can you even tell us the point you’re trying to argue at present? I’ve literally lost track

Are you saying Cotric’s tackle shouldn’t have been a Grade 3?

I’ve somehow lost the point you’re trying to make amongst the nonsensical ramblings.
To be fair I'm not really sure what anybody's point is in this thread.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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Nick claimed it was one of the worst tackles he'd seen in all his years watching the game. He asked me to name 10 worse tackles. GE and I linked a handful of YouTube clips with tackles equally bad or worse. Of course 'equally bad or worse' is open to interpretation.

So I found 8 grade 3 tackles, plus 2 which were referred straight to judiciary - from a 4 year period.



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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Sid »

I was curious to go back and have a look at which tackles players have been sent off for in the modern NRL era prior to Cotric’s, most send offs I could remember were for things like punching, head butting or calling Hollywood a cheat.

I’ve been able to find

2003 - Adrian Morley on Robbie Kearns. Deliberate high tackle first play of the test match

2005 - John Hopoate on Keith Galloway.
Hopoate deliberately jumps into Galloway’s head, forearm first, after Galloway has passed the ball, this was the ugliest of the 3.

2012 - Matt Prior on Johnathan Thurston.
A deliberate late forearm to the head of the playmaker after he’d passed the ball

What other send offs have their been for tackles in the modern NRL era?

If it were up to me there would have been more a lot more send offs for tackles in that time. I think if most fans went back through an archive of foul tackles they’d say the same, probably harder to make that call in the heat of the moment.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Northern Raider »

I found this video from a google search.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport ... bc8897046d

MInichello on Dugan was a ripper. Had 2 goes at him. LOL
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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greeneyed wrote: July 17, 2019, 10:53 am I think that's another issue with the judicial system in the NRL. The judiciary is on a completely different page to the match review committee. There's a better than even chance that if you go to the judiciary, the case is dismissed or the charge reduced. I recognise that the population is biased, as cases that go to the judiciary are those where clubs are either very certain of their ground, or they're very determined/desperate, or the charge doesn't involve extra time if you go to the judiciary (which sometimes happens).

I'm certain that if the Raiders went more often to the judiciary, they'd get better average outcomes in terms of weeks missed on suspension.
In this case I'm glad the Club didn't fight it. Imo we would have lost and Nic would have been on the sidelines longer.
Sticky fighting words on the weekend proved to be just words. Common sense over emotion. Well done to the cool heads.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:41 pm Nick claimed it was one of the worst tackles he'd seen in all his years watching the game. He asked me to name 10 worse tackles. GE and I linked a handful of YouTube clips with tackles equally bad or worse. Of course 'equally bad or worse' is open to interpretation.

So I found 8 grade 3 tackles, plus 2 which were referred straight to judiciary - from a 4 year period.



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So you're arguing to prove a throwaway line that somebody said about a tackle being subjectively one of the worst they'd seen by going back over years of old footage to find examples where said poster is wrong?

Wow... when did you become this, man??
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Northern Raider »

RedRaider wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:52 pm
greeneyed wrote: July 17, 2019, 10:53 am I think that's another issue with the judicial system in the NRL. The judiciary is on a completely different page to the match review committee. There's a better than even chance that if you go to the judiciary, the case is dismissed or the charge reduced. I recognise that the population is biased, as cases that go to the judiciary are those where clubs are either very certain of their ground, or they're very determined/desperate, or the charge doesn't involve extra time if you go to the judiciary (which sometimes happens).

I'm certain that if the Raiders went more often to the judiciary, they'd get better average outcomes in terms of weeks missed on suspension.
In this case I'm glad the Club didn't fight it. Imo we would have lost and Nic would have been on the sidelines longer.
Sticky fighting words on the weekend proved to be just words. Common sense over emotion. Well done to the cool heads.
Sticky did raise some valid points and sparked plenty of debate among the wider rugby league community. That said I totally agree that they made the right call in not contesting either the charge or the grade. Admit that it was a clumsy error and accept the punishment.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

Sid wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:42 pm I was curious to go back and have a look at which tackles players have been sent off for in the modern NRL era prior to Cotric’s, most send offs I could remember were for things like punching, head butting or calling Hollywood a cheat.

I’ve been able to find

2003 - Adrian Morley on Robbie Kearns. Deliberate high tackle first play of the test match

2005 - John Hopoate on Keith Galloway.
Hopoate deliberately jumps into Galloway’s head, forearm first, after Galloway has passed the ball, this was the ugliest of the 3.

2012 - Matt Prior on Johnathan Thurston.
A deliberate late forearm to the head of the playmaker after he’d passed the ball

What other send offs have their been for tackles in the modern NRL era?

If it were up to me there would have been more a lot more send offs for tackles in that time. I think if most fans went back through an archive of foul tackles they’d say the same, probably harder to make that call in the heat of the moment.
Look, I completely agree, but didn't the NRL come out a few weeks back and say the refs needed to send more people off for incidents such as this?? I don't think it really matters what's come before, it's what happens after such a line in the sand is drawn that counts. Nick Cotric is probably a bit unlucky his tackle has come after this call be the NRL, although I still thought it was worthy of a send off when it happened, and I didn't even know about the NRL's latest directive.

The big test now will be if the NRL sticks to their guns on this... which we all know they won't.
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

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The Rickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:41 pm Nick claimed it was one of the worst tackles he'd seen in all his years watching the game. He asked me to name 10 worse tackles. GE and I linked a handful of YouTube clips with tackles equally bad or worse. Of course 'equally bad or worse' is open to interpretation.

So I found 8 grade 3 tackles, plus 2 which were referred straight to judiciary - from a 4 year period.



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So you're arguing to prove a throwaway line that somebody said about a tackle being subjectively one of the worst they'd seen by going back over years of old footage to find examples where said poster is wrong?

Wow... when did you become this, man??
Haha. Nick challenged me to provide evidence and I have.

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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by The Nickman »

gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 2:02 pm
The Rickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:41 pm Nick claimed it was one of the worst tackles he'd seen in all his years watching the game. He asked me to name 10 worse tackles. GE and I linked a handful of YouTube clips with tackles equally bad or worse. Of course 'equally bad or worse' is open to interpretation.

So I found 8 grade 3 tackles, plus 2 which were referred straight to judiciary - from a 4 year period.



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So you're arguing to prove a throwaway line that somebody said about a tackle being subjectively one of the worst they'd seen by going back over years of old footage to find examples where said poster is wrong?

Wow... when did you become this, man??
Haha. Nick challenged me to provide evidence and I have.

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Sounds to me like you're turning into Nick more and more every day, PigRickgerg
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gerg
Laurie Daley
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by gerg »

The Rickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 2:02 pm
The Rickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: July 17, 2019, 1:41 pm Nick claimed it was one of the worst tackles he'd seen in all his years watching the game. He asked me to name 10 worse tackles. GE and I linked a handful of YouTube clips with tackles equally bad or worse. Of course 'equally bad or worse' is open to interpretation.

So I found 8 grade 3 tackles, plus 2 which were referred straight to judiciary - from a 4 year period.



Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk
So you're arguing to prove a throwaway line that somebody said about a tackle being subjectively one of the worst they'd seen by going back over years of old footage to find examples where said poster is wrong?

Wow... when did you become this, man??
Haha. Nick challenged me to provide evidence and I have.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk
Sounds to me like you're turning into Nick more and more every day, PigRickgerg
I agree with many of his rugby league opinions and we're both passionate about the game. There's nothing wrong with challenging each other's opinions in certain areas of the sport.

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Beejay
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Re: Nick Cotric takes early plea, suspended three weeks

Post by Beejay »

If someone has NO record at the judiciary, I really can't see why you need to give someone 5 weeks for an accident. It doesn't take them 5 weeks to realise their error and fix it.
Hit the repeat offenders.

How would Nic Cotric missing 5 weeks help anyone or anything? It just dilutes game quality for fans.
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