The Greenhouse

raiderskater wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 4:01 pm

LastRaider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 2:56 pm

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:Yeah I have no doubt they knew. Ignoring the fact they were signing multiple contracts, just standing around at training and seeing who was in the squad should have got the spider sense tingling


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They still now sign multiple contracts now, there salary cap one and their third party payment agreements which can be more than one depending on how many third party sponsors they have.

The players would not know each one now in detail either... I know this as the company I worked for had about 3 third party players under sponsorship

Which would work except that everyone's always touting how incredibly intelligent Smith is...yeah, he knew.

Once again, you need a bit more than "he must have known" if you want to convict anybody of anything.

LastRaider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 2:56 pm

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:Yeah I have no doubt they knew. Ignoring the fact they were signing multiple contracts, just standing around at training and seeing who was in the squad should have got the spider sense tingling


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They still now sign multiple contracts now, there salary cap one and their third party payment agreements which can be more than one depending on how many third party sponsors they have.

The players would not know each one now in detail either... I know this as the company I worked for had about 3 third party players under sponsorship

So what you're saying is... players STILL sign multiple contracts? And I guess their managers and clubs tell them not to worry... they're genuine third party deals or the contracts are salary cap compliant...

That CAN'T be right can it? They should know that because they've signed more than one contract, their club is salary cap cheating... right?

greeneyed wrote:

LastRaider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 2:56 pm

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:Yeah I have no doubt they knew. Ignoring the fact they were signing multiple contracts, just standing around at training and seeing who was in the squad should have got the spider sense tingling


Sent from my iPhone using The Greenhouse mobile app powered by Tapatalk

They still now sign multiple contracts now, there salary cap one and their third party payment agreements which can be more than one depending on how many third party sponsors they have.

The players would not know each one now in detail either... I know this as the company I worked for had about 3 third party players under sponsorship

So what you're saying is... players STILL sign multiple contracts? And I guess their managers and clubs tell them not to worry... they're genuine third party deals or the contracts are salary cap compliant...

That CAN'T be right can it? They should know that because they've signed more than one contract, their club is salary cap cheating... right?

So what you are saying is that clubs still provide players with nutrition and supplements? And I guess their coaching and medical staff tell them not to worry... They're genuine, legal health supplements.

That CAN'T be right can it? They should know because they've taken supplements their club is involved in a systematic doping program, despite the ASADA hotline having no record of those supplements as banned substances... right?

Dr Zaius wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 6:55 pm

greeneyed wrote:

LastRaider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 2:56 pm

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:Yeah I have no doubt they knew. Ignoring the fact they were signing multiple contracts, just standing around at training and seeing who was in the squad should have got the spider sense tingling


Sent from my iPhone using The Greenhouse mobile app powered by Tapatalk

They still now sign multiple contracts now, there salary cap one and their third party payment agreements which can be more than one depending on how many third party sponsors they have.

The players would not know each one now in detail either... I know this as the company I worked for had about 3 third party players under sponsorship

So what you're saying is... players STILL sign multiple contracts? And I guess their managers and clubs tell them not to worry... they're genuine third party deals or the contracts are salary cap compliant...

That CAN'T be right can it? They should know that because they've signed more than one contract, their club is salary cap cheating... right?

So what you are saying is that clubs still provide players with nutrition and supplements? And I guess their coaching and medical staff tell them not to worry... They're genuine, legal health supplements.

That CAN'T be right can it? They should know because they've taken supplements their club is involved in a systematic doping program, despite the ASADA hotline having no record of those supplements as banned substances... right?

As you know and all the players know, the WADA code is based on strict liability, with the onus on the athlete to ensure they are not injesting or injecting any illegal substance. It reflects how serious drug cheating is, it is an offence that is on a completely different level.

Billy Slater's book explains what the players were told. They were guaranteed that the extra agreements were salary cap compliant and would be disclosed to the NRL. They were not. That's entirely on the Melbourne Storm, not the players.

What has any of this got to do with JC’s dodgy rush up defence??

I’m joking- I’m joking, he was solid last night and I’ll back him for a big game in his 250th - was just having a tease!

greeneyed wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 9:13 pm Billy Slater's book explains what the players were told. They were guaranteed that the extra agreements were salary cap compliant and would be disclosed to the NRL.

But he would say that, wouldn't he?
Like what was he to say otherwise? "I knew what was going on and i was willfully complicit in it, LOL. My boat is **** awesome though!"

The blind belief that the storm players could not possibly have known anything is staggering in it's niavity. Just absolutely staggering. It's one thing to say the burden of proof was not met and probably could not be met, it's one thing to say you just think they're telling the truth, but it's wild to suspend your intellegence and common sense to the point where you dont even concede there is any chance they knew because you read an autobiography from one of the players involved and being like "well that's what he said, so i guess that's the story. Case closed!"

PigRickman wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 9:36 pm

greeneyed wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 9:13 pm Billy Slater's book explains what the players were told. They were guaranteed that the extra agreements were salary cap compliant and would be disclosed to the NRL.

But he would say that, wouldn't he?
Like what was he to say otherwise? "I knew what was going on and i was willfully complicit in it, LOL. My boat is **** awesome though!"

The blind belief that the storm players could not possibly have known anything is staggering in it's niavity. Just absolutely staggering. It's one thing to say the burden of proof was not met and probably could not be met, it's one thing to say you just think they're telling the truth, but it's wild to suspend your intellegence and common sense to the point where you dont even concede there is any chance they knew because you read an autobiography from one of the players involved and being like "well that's what he said, so i guess that's the story. Case closed!"

Read the book, you might, with the benefit of being actually informed, you might have a different view. BTW, the NRL also concluded that the players had no case to answer...

I dont consider being informed as taking the word of the accused
We wouldnt have a soul in prision if we just blindly took the word of the accused when they told us they werent guilty! Haha
The NRL did find there was no case to be answered for, but you've spent years telling me they favour certain teams and players, no? Maybe the NRL has a little unconscious bias... do we have greater superstars in the game at that time than Cam Smith, Billy and co operating out of a vitally important expansion marker
Tough spot, GE!!!


But honestly, of course there was no case to answer, as long as everyone sticks to the story of this being entirely club driven and no players knew, how can they prove otherwise? Again, it's pretty **** wild to be so biased about certain players to suspend all intellegence and common sense and emphatically the are innocent.

Greeneyed be like "Read OJ Simpson's book if you beleive he committed those crimes! He tells you the real story!"

How bout that Croker

Northern Raider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:02 pm How bout that Croker

Oh that guy?

Can't tackle
Can't pass
Can't kick
**** captain

Love him.

Players know what other players are earning. A lot of them use the same player agents and the players use other players salary to drive up their own wage. The players knew, the coach knew and any objective fan knows this.

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The NRL conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Storm players knew the club was cheating the salary cap. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they signed two contracts so they must have known they were cheating!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!

PigRickman wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:05 pm

Northern Raider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:02 pm How bout that Croker

Oh that guy?

Can't tackle
Can't pass
Can't kick
**** captain

Love him.

*co-captain

gergreg wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:05 pm Players know what other players are earning. A lot of them use the same player agents and the players use other players salary to drive up their own wage. The players knew, the coach knew and any objective fan knows this.

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i think that's too much too.
The simple reality is we'll never know what those players knew or didnt. We know the NRL did not find evidence enough to go after them, and i'll leave it to those who feel the NRL work on specific agendas (Like Greeneyed for example) to explain why we should or shouldnt believe them.

I personally find the idea that they absolutely did know and were complicit to be too far. It's however ridiculous beyond belief to believe they couldnt possibly have know. They may have been complicit in this and kept themselves in the plausible deniability zone, or they may have known nothing. To dismiss either or anything is lacking in common sense.

None of it matters. They wont be relitigating this anytime soon, but questions about their involvement and integrity will rightly or wrongly be attached with those players legacy.

PigRickman wrote:

Billy Walker wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 9:54 am

PigRickman wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 9:38 am

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 9:19 am Makes no sense, he still scored the points

They still won the games too, and were stripped of those points
I don’t think I agree (I’m not sure I don’t either, would need to think a little more about it) that he should be stripped of those points but I think it’s a very valid question to ask and I can certainly see the argument for it

Like how many points were obtained through players illegally on the roster? How might his point total have differed if they fielded a legal team?

It’s a fair point but it gets ugly - if you took that position, there may be an argument to extend the rationale to points scored by teams playing against the storm in those years?

I think the stripping of premierships was the punishment rather than an attempt to null and void the games. Similar to when the doggies went a season being punished for bad behaviour. The games happened it was just the teams weren’t eligible to accrue points if that makes sense.

It’s a slippery slope to go down - do you revisit any tries scored down Tim Simona’s wing? What about points the peptide pumped sharks racked up?

I think it’s probably best to say it is was it is - but like you it isn’t one I’ve lied awake at night pondering deeply.

Yeah I think you’re probably right, that it’s a slippery slope so you have to just draw the line with competition points and premierships
Still it’s an interesting sort of question think about in relation to the points record

I think the fairest way is for Smith to keep competition points, goals and wins etc. over that period, however they should be carried with an asterisk. There’s no doubt having a stacked side for those years would’ve added to those stats, but at the same time you can’t adjust them to a new figure or pretend they didn’t happen at all. I think NRL will let Smith get away with having those sorts of stats without the asterisk though.

His records such as total games played and his standalone origin stats however can and should be carried without an asterisk.

greeneyed wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:09 pm The NRL conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Storm players knew the club was cheating the salary cap. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they signed two contracts so they must have known they were cheating!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!

You mean the same NRL that you believe "has a range of policies that directly and deliberately and openly favour some clubs over others"
But a favourable finding in an investigation for the games VERY elite players, in a market that is the most vital for the NRL right now is beyond them?
hahah... what a spot to be in. Imagine trying to thread those two positons. I don't envy you're spot, old friend.

Billy Walker wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:10 pm

PigRickman wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:05 pm

Northern Raider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:02 pm How bout that Croker

Oh that guy?

Can't tackle
Can't pass
Can't kick
**** captain

Love him.

*co-captain

Croker captains the losses. Hodgo the wins.

I'm perfectly comfortable. On the couch, heater going.

Simply because it is a fact that the NRL "has a range of policies that directly and deliberately and openly favour some clubs over others"...

it doesn't negate, in any way, shape or form, that they could not find any evidence that the Storm players knew their club was cheating the cap. They had all the evidence in front of them. IThey had the keys to all the books, all the evidence.

It is very straight forward.

The NRL and ASADA conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Sharks players knew the club was administering PEDs. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they were using PEDs!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!



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gergreg wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:28 pm The NRL and ASADA conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Sharks players knew the club was administering PEDs. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they were using PEDs!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!



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But, of course, in this case, the players admitted they did it. Case closed.

greeneyed wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:27 pm I'm perfectly comfortable. On the couch, heater going.

Simply because it is a fact that the NRL "has a range of policies that directly and deliberately and openly favour some clubs over others"...

it doesn't negate, in any way, shape or form, that they could not find any evidence that the Storm players knew their club was cheating the cap. They had all the evidence in front of them. IThey had the keys to all the books, all the evidence.

It is very straight forward.

Yeah i guess it is pretty straight forward. The NRL act according to the evidence and the best information possible to make judgements that are true and just always, and never consider the impact it has on the game or their brand... except when it comes to the Raiders.

When it comes to a narrative you like and agree with, the NRL is beyond reproach. Otherwise, and most specificially, when dealing with the Raiders, they're operating under all levels of bias.
Got it.

Crystal clear, my man.

The same NRL that let Ivan Cleary off for abusing a ref at half time with multiple witnesses

Goldcoast Raider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:49 pm The same NRL that let Ivan Cleary off for abusing a ref at half time with multiple witnesses

Yeah but the NRL investigated, they had all the evidence at their fingertips including a confe... oh.. i see.

I’m going to be honest, I’m still dirty at Cameron Smiths cheap shot on crokers knee in that 2016 finals game when that fight broke out after storm scored that try, you watch smith come in and knee Croker behind his knee as the fight brakes out , it cost Croker an Australian jersey

Bloody grub

greeneyed wrote:

gergreg wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:28 pm The NRL and ASADA conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Sharks players knew the club was administering PEDs. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they were using PEDs!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!



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But, of course, in this case, the players admitted they did it. Case closed.

You mean the players cooperated, served (and accepted) their punishment, unlike your mob.

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gergreg wrote:

greeneyed wrote:

gergreg wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:28 pm The NRL and ASADA conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Sharks players knew the club was administering PEDs. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they were using PEDs!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!



Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

But, of course, in this case, the players admitted they did it. Case closed.

You mean the players cooperated, served (and accepted) their punishment, unlike your mob.

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The Sharks players certainly did NOT cooperate. The Storm players never refused to cooperate in the salary cap investigation.

The Storm are not “my mob”. Not in any way, shape or form.

I’m just basing my comments on the facts, and taking a reasonable, calm view of some historical events. Some people don’t seem to like that! I don’t understand why?


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Goldcoast Raider wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:52 pm I’m going to be honest, I’m still dirty at Cameron Smiths cheap shot on crokers knee in that 2016 finals game when that fight broke out after storm scored that try, you watch smith come in and knee Croker behind his knee as the fight brakes out , it cost Croker an Australian jersey

As am I. The fact that he faced no repercussions for that was appalling. I still wish the skipper had called him out on it during the Dally Ms.

I will also never forget the expression on Smith's face when Croker's name, not his, was called out as Captain of the Year. Smith was so confident he had it in the bag that he was already halfway out of his seat!

greeneyed wrote:

gergreg wrote:

greeneyed wrote:

gergreg wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:28 pm The NRL and ASADA conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Sharks players knew the club was administering PEDs. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they were using PEDs!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!



Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

But, of course, in this case, the players admitted they did it. Case closed.

You mean the players cooperated, served (and accepted) their punishment, unlike your mob.

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The Sharks players certainly did NOT cooperate. The Storm players never refused to cooperate in the salary cap investigation.

The Storm are not “my mob”. Not in any way, shape or form.

I’m just basing my comments on the facts, and taking a reasonable, calm view of some historical events. Some people don’t seem to like that! I don’t understand why?


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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.herald ... 981eacae79

The storm players refused to cooperate with the investigation.

By agreeing that they used PEDs and accepting the (admittedly minor) penalty the Sharks cooperated more than your boys.

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I was wrong re the cooperation of the Storm players. Happy to take that as the evidence.

They're not my boys, any more than the Sharks are yours (at least I assume your not a supporter of the self admitted drug cheating Sharks players).

greeneyed wrote:I was wrong re the cooperation of the Storm players. Happy to take that as the evidence.

They're not my boys, any more than the Sharks are yours (at least I assume your not a supporter of the self admitted drug cheating Sharks players).

I honestly couldn't care less about the Sharks. I just like to constantly mention them to point out your hypocrisy with two absolutely **** bag teams.

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gergreg wrote: ↑August 4, 2019, 12:06 am

greeneyed wrote:I was wrong re the cooperation of the Storm players. Happy to take that as the evidence.

They're not my boys, any more than the Sharks are yours (at least I assume your not a supporter of the self admitted drug cheating Sharks players).

I honestly couldn't care less about the Sharks. I just like to constantly mention them to point out your hypocrisy with two absolutely **** bag teams.

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There is no hypocrisy. I have made conclusions on the basis of the evidence available to me. But now you admit Paul Gallen and the Sharks are disgraceful human beings... I'm happy to hear no more of your constant defence of them.

greeneyed wrote:

gergreg wrote: ↑August 3, 2019, 10:28 pm The NRL and ASADA conducts a major investigation, and they unturn absolutely no actual evidence that the Sharks players knew the club was administering PEDs. We've got the explanation from the players, which belies all these claims of "but they were using PEDs!".

But let's not allow facts to get in the way in this discussion!

Everyone just knows that men didn't really land on the moon... it was all done in a TV studio! Just because we know it can't have actually happened! And the earth is flat! Because!



Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk

But, of course, in this case, the players admitted they did it. Case closed.

The Cronulla players admitted to taking the supplements, not to knowing what they are. It was a systematic rort by the club.

The Melbourne players admitted to taking the money, not to knowing where it came from. It was a systematic rorting by the club.

Storm: "And instead of paying you in the traditional way, with cash, we've organised for Jimmy from Carlton Home Renos to come and do 60 grand worth of work on your house. Oh6, and Barb will get a shiny new beemer."

Cam: "Sounds a bit dodge, are you sure that this is legit?"

Storm: "Oh absolutely Cam, nothing to see here. Absolutely legit"

Cam: "Well that's good enough for me. Where do I sign?"

Storm: "Here, here, here here, here and here. Oh and here."