Jarrod Croker

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by PigRickman » August 2, 2019, 11:28 am

I had the weirdest **** **** ever yesterday. I had just finished reading this thread, and one my mates from the Riff rang me to chat about the game because i had been sending him all the **** smack talk during the week and apropos to nothing he was like "I cant believe the Raiders are actually good on defence and you know what? Croker's defense really impressed me in that game too"
and that **** just always sounds like a totally made up story but it **** happened! :lol:
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Northern Raider » August 2, 2019, 11:33 am

PigRickman wrote:
August 2, 2019, 11:28 am
I had the weirdest **** **** ever yesterday. I had just finished reading this thread, and one my mates from the Riff rang me to chat about the game because i had been sending him all the **** smack talk during the week and apropos to nothing he was like "I cant believe the Raiders are actually good on defence and you know what? Croker's defense really impressed me in that game too"
and that **** just always sounds like a totally made up story but it **** happened! :lol:
He wasn't one of those Russian panthers fans then.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Dr Zaius » August 2, 2019, 6:55 pm

First half against the warriors. Bombed a couple, saved one. Fire up boys.

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by greeneyed » August 2, 2019, 9:49 pm

Billy is probably unhappy with the 40-4 scoreline, so we might not hear from him for a while.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by gergreg » August 2, 2019, 10:09 pm

greeneyed wrote:Billy is probably unhappy with the 40-4 scoreline, so we might not hear from him for a while.
What are you talking about GE? Billy supports the mighty green machine.

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Billy Walker » August 2, 2019, 10:18 pm

gergreg wrote:
August 2, 2019, 10:09 pm
greeneyed wrote:Billy is probably unhappy with the 40-4 scoreline, so we might not hear from him for a while.
What are you talking about GE? Billy supports the mighty green machine.

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Goldcoast Raider » August 2, 2019, 10:52 pm

Quick question, just with Jarred’s point scoring, do you think that cam smiths record should be tainted at least the 09 season cause he was kicking goals in a cheating team 🤔

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by woppadingo » August 3, 2019, 8:30 am

Goldcoast Raider wrote:
August 2, 2019, 10:52 pm
Quick question, just with Jarred’s point scoring, do you think that cam smiths record should be tainted at least the 09 season cause he was kicking goals in a cheating team 🤔
Didnt they have two premierships stripped? He should lose all the points from all those years.

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Jarrod Croker

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » August 3, 2019, 9:19 am

Makes no sense, he still scored the points
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by PigRickman » August 3, 2019, 9:38 am

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
August 3, 2019, 9:19 am
Makes no sense, he still scored the points
They still won the games too, and were stripped of those points
I don’t think I agree (I’m not sure I don’t either, would need to think a little more about it) that he should be stripped of those points but I think it’s a very valid question to ask and I can certainly see the argument for it

Like how many points were obtained through players illegally on the roster? How might his point total have differed if they fielded a legal team?
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Billy Walker » August 3, 2019, 9:54 am

PigRickman wrote:
August 3, 2019, 9:38 am
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
August 3, 2019, 9:19 am
Makes no sense, he still scored the points
They still won the games too, and were stripped of those points
I don’t think I agree (I’m not sure I don’t either, would need to think a little more about it) that he should be stripped of those points but I think it’s a very valid question to ask and I can certainly see the argument for it

Like how many points were obtained through players illegally on the roster? How might his point total have differed if they fielded a legal team?
It’s a fair point but it gets ugly - if you took that position, there may be an argument to extend the rationale to points scored by teams playing against the storm in those years?

I think the stripping of premierships was the punishment rather than an attempt to null and void the games. Similar to when the doggies went a season being punished for bad behaviour. The games happened it was just the teams weren’t eligible to accrue points if that makes sense.

It’s a slippery slope to go down - do you revisit any tries scored down Tim Simona’s wing? What about points the peptide pumped sharks racked up?

I think it’s probably best to say it is was it is - but like you it isn’t one I’ve lied awake at night pondering deeply.

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Jarrod Croker

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » August 3, 2019, 10:13 am

Yeah my view is you punish the club for the cheating, not the players.
So strip the club of points and premierships, but the players still put in the effort, so the individual achievements should stand.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Goldcoast Raider » August 3, 2019, 10:33 am

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
August 3, 2019, 10:13 am
Yeah my view is you punish the club for the cheating, not the players.
So strip the club of points and premierships, but the players still put in the effort, so the individual achievements should stand.
But they knew about the cheating so why shouldn’t they be punished

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Goldcoast Raider » August 3, 2019, 10:33 am

The player signed 2 contracts

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by greeneyed » August 3, 2019, 10:48 am

Goldcoast Raider wrote:
August 3, 2019, 10:33 am
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
August 3, 2019, 10:13 am
Yeah my view is you punish the club for the cheating, not the players.
So strip the club of points and premierships, but the players still put in the effort, so the individual achievements should stand.
But they knew about the cheating so why shouldn’t they be punished
But they didn’t know. Read Billy Slater’s book on the contracts.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Goldcoast Raider » August 3, 2019, 10:48 am

So a boat just appears in there driveway

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Jarrod Croker

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » August 3, 2019, 11:04 am

Goldcoast Raider wrote:
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
August 3, 2019, 10:13 am
Yeah my view is you punish the club for the cheating, not the players.
So strip the club of points and premierships, but the players still put in the effort, so the individual achievements should stand.
But they knew about the cheating so why shouldn’t they be punished
What the club did shouldn’t impact an individuals stats.

If Cam Smith was found systematically using performance enhancing substances during a period of time, then yes his results during that time he was cheating should be removed.

But his results at that time are his own, and shouldn’t be taken away.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Goldcoast Raider » August 3, 2019, 11:09 am

But if you take players out that shouldn’t of been there and they don’t win as many games or score as many tries

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Northern Raider » August 3, 2019, 11:16 am

Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by -TW- » August 3, 2019, 11:20 am

Northern Raider wrote:Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
Exactly, his record is valid

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Roger Kenworthy » August 3, 2019, 11:31 am

I wouldn't say it's valid. They didn't have a one off rort - it was over 4-5 seasons. But it's not going to be taken off him.

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Goldcoast Raider » August 3, 2019, 11:34 am

And the fact that they are celebrating this week or last is rubbing it in more

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Northern Raider » August 3, 2019, 11:36 am

Goldcoast Raider wrote:
August 3, 2019, 11:34 am
And the fact that they are celebrating this week or last is rubbing it in more
Only certain people feel that way and that's their cross to bear.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Billy Walker » August 3, 2019, 11:39 am

Northern Raider wrote:
August 3, 2019, 11:16 am
Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
I agree NR - the Essendon situation might be an exception though. Apparently the club was running a doping program that the players weren’t aware was illegal. In addition to the club being smashed with penalties the players also copped lengthy bans and Jobe Watson was stripped of his individual Brownlow medal win.

I’m comfortable with the punishment Melbourne copped and for Cam Smith to keep his records achieved through that period. Others won’t be - probably no perfect answer and something to be debated in pubs for years to come!

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Northern Raider » August 3, 2019, 11:44 am

Billy Walker wrote:
August 3, 2019, 11:39 am
Northern Raider wrote:
August 3, 2019, 11:16 am
Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
I agree NR - the Essendon situation might be an exception though. Apparently the club was running a doping program that the players weren’t aware was illegal. In addition to the club being smashed with penalties the players also copped lengthy bans and Jobe Watson was stripped of his individual Brownlow medal win.

I’m comfortable with the punishment Melbourne copped and for Cam Smith to keep his records achieved through that period. Others won’t be - probably no perfect answer and something to be debated in pubs for years to come!
Essendon didn't breach the cap though. PED's are a whole different topic.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by PigRickman » August 3, 2019, 12:08 pm

Billy Walker wrote:
August 3, 2019, 9:54 am
PigRickman wrote:
August 3, 2019, 9:38 am
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
August 3, 2019, 9:19 am
Makes no sense, he still scored the points
They still won the games too, and were stripped of those points
I don’t think I agree (I’m not sure I don’t either, would need to think a little more about it) that he should be stripped of those points but I think it’s a very valid question to ask and I can certainly see the argument for it

Like how many points were obtained through players illegally on the roster? How might his point total have differed if they fielded a legal team?
It’s a fair point but it gets ugly - if you took that position, there may be an argument to extend the rationale to points scored by teams playing against the storm in those years?

I think the stripping of premierships was the punishment rather than an attempt to null and void the games. Similar to when the doggies went a season being punished for bad behaviour. The games happened it was just the teams weren’t eligible to accrue points if that makes sense.

It’s a slippery slope to go down - do you revisit any tries scored down Tim Simona’s wing? What about points the peptide pumped sharks racked up?

I think it’s probably best to say it is was it is - but like you it isn’t one I’ve lied awake at night pondering deeply.
Yeah I think you’re probably right, that it’s a slippery slope so you have to just draw the line with competition points and premierships
Still it’s an interesting sort of question think about in relation to the points record
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Dr Zaius » August 3, 2019, 12:11 pm

Northern Raider wrote:Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
Certain player managers were held responsible, and Smith was his own manager.

I'd wager Smith knew more about the cap cheating than Gallen knew about peptides. Yet some people laud Smith a saint and Gallen a monster.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by raiderskater » August 3, 2019, 12:28 pm

Goldcoast Raider wrote:
August 3, 2019, 10:33 am
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
August 3, 2019, 10:13 am
Yeah my view is you punish the club for the cheating, not the players.
So strip the club of points and premierships, but the players still put in the effort, so the individual achievements should stand.
But they knew about the cheating so why shouldn’t they be punished
Yeah. Anyone who tries to claim that the Storm players didn't know is kidding themselves. Cameron Smith signed four separate contracts. He knew.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by greeneyed » August 3, 2019, 12:38 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
August 3, 2019, 12:11 pm
Northern Raider wrote:Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
Certain player managers were held responsible, and Smith was his own manager.

I'd wager Smith knew more about the cap cheating than Gallen knew about peptides. Yet some people laud Smith a saint and Gallen a monster.
But he didn't know what they were doing... for the same reason Billy Slater didn't know.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by PigRickman » August 3, 2019, 12:48 pm

I have loved watching these storm players play and they are some of the very best to ever play the game
In Cam’s case, the best imo

But this situation is the Oxford dictionary definition of “plausible deniability”
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » August 3, 2019, 12:56 pm

Yeah I have no doubt they knew. Ignoring the fact they were signing multiple contracts, just standing around at training and seeing who was in the squad should have got the spider sense tingling


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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Northern Raider » August 3, 2019, 12:58 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
August 3, 2019, 12:11 pm
Northern Raider wrote:Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
Certain player managers were held responsible, and Smith was his own manager.

I'd wager Smith knew more about the cap cheating than Gallen knew about peptides. Yet some people laud Smith a saint and Gallen a monster.
Smith wasn't managing himself back then.

Also "they must have known about it" is hardly a solid case to lay any sort of charges. Like I said, players are not responsible for managing a club's salary cap. Different story if rules were in place for players to fully report all earnings and gratuities then failed to disclose The boat that turned up in their driveway. That would be a personal breach by the player.
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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by Dr Zaius » August 3, 2019, 1:12 pm

greeneyed wrote:
August 3, 2019, 12:38 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:
August 3, 2019, 12:11 pm
Northern Raider wrote:Players are not responsible for maintaining a salary cap. The club is. You would be hard pressed to find a case anywhere in any professional sport of a player being sanctioned for salary cap breach.
Certain player managers were held responsible, and Smith was his own manager.

I'd wager Smith knew more about the cap cheating than Gallen knew about peptides. Yet some people laud Smith a saint and Gallen a monster.
But he didn't know what they were doing... for the same reason Billy Slater didn't know.
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Jarrod Croker

Post by LastRaider » August 3, 2019, 2:56 pm

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:Yeah I have no doubt they knew. Ignoring the fact they were signing multiple contracts, just standing around at training and seeing who was in the squad should have got the spider sense tingling


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They still now sign multiple contracts now, there salary cap one and their third party payment agreements which can be more than one depending on how many third party sponsors they have.

The players would not know each one now in detail either... I know this as the company I worked for had about 3 third party players under sponsorship

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Re: Jarrod Croker

Post by raiderskater » August 3, 2019, 4:01 pm

LastRaider wrote:
August 3, 2019, 2:56 pm
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:Yeah I have no doubt they knew. Ignoring the fact they were signing multiple contracts, just standing around at training and seeing who was in the squad should have got the spider sense tingling


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They still now sign multiple contracts now, there salary cap one and their third party payment agreements which can be more than one depending on how many third party sponsors they have.

The players would not know each one now in detail either... I know this as the company I worked for had about 3 third party players under sponsorship
Which would work except that everyone's always touting how incredibly intelligent Smith is...yeah, he knew.
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