11, 12, 13

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11, 12, 13

11. Tapine, 12. Whitehead, 13. Bateman
12
46%
11. Tapine, 12. Bateman, 13. Whitehead
4
15%
11. Bateman, 12. Whitehead, 13. Tapine
6
23%
Other
4
15%
 
Total votes: 26

julian87
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by julian87 »

PigRickman wrote: May 21, 2019, 9:34 pm
julian87 wrote: May 21, 2019, 9:32 pm
PigRickman wrote: May 21, 2019, 9:20 pm
julian87 wrote: May 21, 2019, 9:18 pm I think Whitehead is the last of the 3 backrowers id play in the middle.
He played about 3-4 games there and was absolutely outstanding in every one of them. Weird take.
Edit: Is this a Simon Mannering issue? I can see why it might seem Simon Mannering to the middle on face value and i know you and i were both very staunchly against that.
I remember being for it last year. It worked at first and he was good. I think it just nullifies his attack too much compared to the other 2.
yeah that's probably true, but i thought his ball skills around the ruck created a lot of opportunities for us. How it weighs up against JB or Tapine, yeah... im not married to either. But one thing im certain of is that if Whitehead's role required him to be a middle, he'd be very good in that role.
I don’t disagree at all. He’s a very good player and I often wonder how the team can be a bit more flexible to get a bit more out of him.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
julian87
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by julian87 »

I don’t know the answer to this long term but I think I’d like Tapine in the middle for the origin period where Papalii is either missing or carrying a heavier workload. Bench is perfect first week and depending how he goes he might be straight in for Papalii the week after which will be against a Napaless dogs anyway.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Raiders_Pat
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Raiders_Pat »

julian87 wrote: May 21, 2019, 10:19 pm I don’t know the answer to this long term but I think I’d like Tapine in the middle for the origin period where Papalii is either missing or carrying a heavier workload. Bench is perfect first week and depending how he goes he might be straight in for Papalii the week after which will be against a Napaless dogs anyway.
Yeah I've mentioned it before but I'd also have Tapine in the middle to cover for Papalii during Origin. We've had a bit of disruption in the forwards due to injury but I like how Ricky has given players a chance to nail down positions this season. I'd like to see Tapine give a chance to claim second row when we're at full strength though before moving him on, and if it doesn't work out I think he should be making a permanent shift to the middle.
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Dusty
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Dusty »

Defensively I’d have:
11. Whitehead (left)
12. Bateman (right)
13. Tapine (middle)

In attack I’d have:
11. Whitehead (left)
13. Tapine (right)
12. Bateman (middle)

There’s no reason why that can’t happen. I’d also have 10. Sutton as I hav since pre season.


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2020: 1. Nicol-Klokstad 2. Cotric 3. Croker (c) 4 Leilua 5. Scott 6. Wighton 7. G. Williams 8. Papalii 9. Hodgson (c) 10. Sutton 11. J. Bateman 12. Whitehead 13. Tapine ----
14. Simmonson 15. Soliola 16. Guler 17. Horsburgh
edwahu

Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by edwahu »

I'm not sure to be honest. I have a hunch it might end up as Whitehead, Young, Bateman with Tapine moving to the middle where he is a better defender.
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MrPosh
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by MrPosh »

Tapine on the edge, for me. I get the point about him defending next to Williams, but that's less of an issue with Cotric there, I think.

Bateman in the middle might take a bit of pressure of Papalii in defence - allowing him extra minutes on the field, which is crucial to the team's success.
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kiwi raider
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by kiwi raider »

Defense wins games/competitions, that's been at the forefront of our good start this season so i'm picking the two best edge defenders first, Bateman and Whitehead are two of the best edge defenders in the game and your edges are generally where you can save the most tries/points, I also think the two poms are probably better link men/ball players on the edge especially EW and thirdly IMO we looked a better side when we had a bit more size in the middle once Sutton moved there, we got monstered a bit by Melbourne with the smaller middle rotation so Tapine's size should help there too especially considering we are going to have to match it with some very powerful middle rotations if we are going to beat the top teams

11. Whitehead
12. Bateman
13. Sutton/Tapine with the other either at prop or on the bench.

This doesn't mean we can't run Tapine out wide at some edge players , we did that with Paulo/papalii in the past so I see no reason why Tapine can't spend plenty of time running at halves etc
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Seiffert82
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Seiffert82 »

Dusty wrote: May 22, 2019, 5:55 am Defensively I’d have:
11. Whitehead (left)
12. Bateman (right)
13. Tapine (middle)

In attack I’d have:
11. Whitehead (left)
13. Tapine (right)
12. Bateman (middle)

There’s no reason why that can’t happen. I’d also have 10. Sutton as I hav since pre season.


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I'm on board with that in our back row, although I do like the idea of Lui starting and Sutton off the bench with Soliola.
LastRaider
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by LastRaider »

greeneyed wrote:Tapine and Whitehead in the second row, Bateman at lock.

I want Sutton in starting prop as well as part of that deal.
I’ll take that too


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The Nickman
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by The Nickman »

greeneyed wrote:Tapine and Whitehead in the second row, Bateman at lock.

I want Sutton in starting prop as well as part of that deal.
This


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The Nickman
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by The Nickman »

simo wrote:11 whitehead 12 bateman 13 sutton
Tapine on the bench coming on at around the 25 mark for sutton and pushing bateman to lock
This is good too


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The Nickman
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by The Nickman »

Not only is Bateman the best man for the middle, he also plays his best football in the middle, and prefers it there, he’s said as much himself.

And Tapine and Whitehead both play their best football on the edges and prefer it there. This one isn’t rocket surgery, it’s strange to me that it’s even a debate.


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Northern Raider
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Northern Raider »

Given the quality of play from all our back row there's really no wrong answer here. At full strength I still see it as GE suggested.

11 Whitehead
12 Bateman
13 Tapine

Sutton to prop.
* The author assumes no responsibility for the topicality, correctness, completeness or quality of information provided.
Wiki Special
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Wiki Special »

Northern Raider wrote: May 22, 2019, 7:59 am Given the quality of play from all our back row there's really no wrong answer here. At full strength I still see it as GE suggested.

11 Whitehead
12 Bateman
13 Tapine

Sutton to prop.
GE has Bateman at lock.
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Northern Raider
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Northern Raider »

Wiki Special wrote: May 22, 2019, 8:12 am
Northern Raider wrote: May 22, 2019, 7:59 am Given the quality of play from all our back row there's really no wrong answer here. At full strength I still see it as GE suggested.

11 Whitehead
12 Bateman
13 Tapine

Sutton to prop.
GE has Bateman at lock.
Oops, typed it up wrong. Yeah, Whitey and Tarps on edges and Bateman in the middle.
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simo
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by simo »

Im really looking forward to seeing how tapine goes this year. Missed most of the season with injuries so i hope he has lifted his game defensively as much as everyone else seems to have
Dont delete this GE
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Matt
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Matt »

Ive selected Whitey and Tarpz in the BR with Bateman at lock. However, Im also a fan of the Poms in the BR and Tarpz at lock.

My reasoning behind Bateman at lock is that defensively he is amazing. He is also very happy to mix it with the big boys with niggle and attitude. The major reason is actually what he provides in attack. We look much better when he gets more ball. At lock he gets that ball. We are short a few pts at the moment and I think he provides them. I also think that Tapine does his best work as a big body on the edge, and last yr he proved defensively capable.

That said, I can totally see the defensive argument to having him on the edge. Sammy had the bodyguard he needed while Batemen was alongside him. I dont hate the idea of the bigger body in Tapine at lock. In fact I was keener on that to start the year.

Either way its a great problem to have.

I also agree with the move of Sutton to prop over Lui in these moves.
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kiwi raider
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by kiwi raider »

The Rickman wrote: May 22, 2019, 7:52 am Not only is Bateman the best man for the middle, he also plays his best football in the middle, and prefers it there, he’s said as much himself.

And Tapine and Whitehead both play their best football on the edges and prefer it there. This one isn’t rocket surgery, it’s strange to me that it’s even a debate.


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He's played 2 games at lock, 6 on the edge in the NRL, Over the last few years he's played pretty much exclusively on the edge for Wigan and England as well as here .

since the start of 2016 according to rugbyleagueproject he's played
76 games at centre/second row
5 games at lock.

I think its up for debate that he plays his best football in the middle, the guys a gun anywhere imo and wherever he plays he improves our side significantly, some people prefer to use his defense on the edge to improve us out wide where we have really struggled over past seasons where as in the middle he also adds linespeeed, work rate/niggle and can roam a bit more, still I think its a fair debate and I don't really think it matters to much
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Raiders_Pat
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Raiders_Pat »

kiwi raider wrote: May 22, 2019, 9:39 am
The Rickman wrote: May 22, 2019, 7:52 am Not only is Bateman the best man for the middle, he also plays his best football in the middle, and prefers it there, he’s said as much himself.

And Tapine and Whitehead both play their best football on the edges and prefer it there. This one isn’t rocket surgery, it’s strange to me that it’s even a debate.


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He's played 2 games at lock, 6 on the edge in the NRL, Over the last few years he's played pretty much exclusively on the edge for Wigan and England as well as here .

since the start of 2016 according to rugbyleagueproject he's played
76 games at centre/second row
5 games at lock.

I think its up for debate that he plays his best football in the middle, the guys a gun anywhere imo and wherever he plays he improves our side significantly, some people prefer to use his defense on the edge to improve us out wide where we have really struggled over past seasons where as in the middle he also adds linespeeed, work rate/niggle and can roam a bit more, still I think its a fair debate and I don't really think it matters to much
It's definitely up for debate re: where he plays his best footy, but what's not up for debate imo is that he's the best lock at our club and we've got two others who are international second rowers. Therefore I've got Bateman at lock and shifting to second row if Whitehead or Tapine are injured. I think that's how the coaching staff see it too. Also, as Nickman said and as I mentioned previously, Whitehead and Tapine at second row and Bateman at lock has all players in their preferred positions. To me, it's the logical set up we should try at least to begin with once we're at full strength.
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Beejay
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Beejay »

#Richclubproblems

feels good
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Wiki Special »

It's a great problem to have and when Sutton inevitably plays for England in the next 12 or so months we will have an all International pack.

Pretty clear that I am in the minority but I truly believe Tapine can transition into the middle as successfully as Papa (or pretty close).
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Woodgers
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Woodgers »

The Rickman wrote: May 22, 2019, 7:52 am Not only is Bateman the best man for the middle, he also plays his best football in the middle, and prefers it there, he’s said as much himself.

And Tapine and Whitehead both play their best football on the edges and prefer it there. This one isn’t rocket surgery, it’s strange to me that it’s even a debate.


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Bateman has proven he plays above his weight but I still feel that we lack that size in the middle if we start him there. I'd prefer we moved him there after 25 minutes. He's got some motor but asking him to do 80 in the middle is tough on any player. That's the counter theory here, not necessarily who plays their best footy in which spot. It's more about that juggle to get 80 good minutes out of Bateman while also winning that middle in the early exchanges. That's why it would be ideal if we can get Tapine doing 25 quality minutes in the middle, just that 107kg/96kg difference which seems to help us, even Sutton at 103kg made a difference to our early exchanges when he started at #13 IMO. Once it loosens up a bit in there, Bateman's size is a non-issue in that ruck and his workrate and efforts against those bench players or starting middles on their 2nd stint is our advantage.

One other tick that Bateman gets over Tapine or Whitehead in the middle is he's much less likely to give away those god awful holding down penalties. I have no stats to back this up but those 2 seem to be good for those frequently, it's probably even part of the notorious ref tip sheet!
We continue to **** about with blokes that are part of some fraternity. It's infuriating.
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Matt
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Matt »

kiwi raider wrote: May 22, 2019, 9:39 am
The Rickman wrote: May 22, 2019, 7:52 am Not only is Bateman the best man for the middle, he also plays his best football in the middle, and prefers it there, he’s said as much himself.

And Tapine and Whitehead both play their best football on the edges and prefer it there. This one isn’t rocket surgery, it’s strange to me that it’s even a debate.


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He's played 2 games at lock, 6 on the edge in the NRL, Over the last few years he's played pretty much exclusively on the edge for Wigan and England as well as here .

since the start of 2016 according to rugbyleagueproject he's played
76 games at centre/second row
5 games at lock.

I think its up for debate that he plays his best football in the middle, the guys a gun anywhere imo and wherever he plays he improves our side significantly, some people prefer to use his defense on the edge to improve us out wide where we have really struggled over past seasons where as in the middle he also adds linespeeed, work rate/niggle and can roam a bit more, still I think its a fair debate and I don't really think it matters to much
Have you questioned why he doesnt have more starts at lock? Esp as he himself has said thats where he wants to play?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_O%27Loughlin
Look at the club he plays for, how many games, then check his international resume.
julian87
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by julian87 »

Very good call Matt. O’Loughlin was the last of the long standing tradition of genuine loose forwards in England.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
Wiki Special
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Wiki Special »

Can someone post a link of him saying he wants to play lock? I thought he said he expected to be playing there or the like, not that he wanted too.
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kiwi raider
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by kiwi raider »

Matt wrote: May 22, 2019, 11:10 am
kiwi raider wrote: May 22, 2019, 9:39 am
The Rickman wrote: May 22, 2019, 7:52 am Not only is Bateman the best man for the middle, he also plays his best football in the middle, and prefers it there, he’s said as much himself.

And Tapine and Whitehead both play their best football on the edges and prefer it there. This one isn’t rocket surgery, it’s strange to me that it’s even a debate.


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He's played 2 games at lock, 6 on the edge in the NRL, Over the last few years he's played pretty much exclusively on the edge for Wigan and England as well as here .

since the start of 2016 according to rugbyleagueproject he's played
76 games at centre/second row
5 games at lock.

I think its up for debate that he plays his best football in the middle, the guys a gun anywhere imo and wherever he plays he improves our side significantly, some people prefer to use his defense on the edge to improve us out wide where we have really struggled over past seasons where as in the middle he also adds linespeeed, work rate/niggle and can roam a bit more, still I think its a fair debate and I don't really think it matters to much
Have you questioned why he doesnt have more starts at lock? Esp as he himself has said thats where he wants to play?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_O%27Loughlin
Look at the club he plays for, how many games, then check his international resume.
Yes I realise he's had SOL in front of him
I was just disagreeing with the statement that bateman plays his best football at Lock, I'm not sure how you can say that when he's only played 5 out of his last 80odd games at lock, and only 2 in the last 12 months or so
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Matt
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Matt »

Wiki Special wrote: May 22, 2019, 11:19 am Can someone post a link of him saying he wants to play lock? I thought he said he expected to be playing there or the like, not that he wanted too.
https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/02/21/can ... -forwards/

A few exerts:

His hero is Wigan No.13 Sean O'Loughlin, who was so prominent in the World Club Challenge match between the Warriors and the Sydney Roosters on Monday morning.

"Coming from Wigan I played with one of the best loose forwards in the world in Sean O'Loughlin.

"So I watched him closely and how he did everything. I wanted to be just like him and I got to love that position [lock].

"I always want to learn so we'll see where Ricky wants to put me. But I do love No.13 or in the second row.
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Matt »

At the start of the year Ennis said Bateman reminded him of Watmough. I can totally see that. However, Bateman is more skillful with the ball in hand.

Either way, great dilemma to have
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simo
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by simo »

The only definite here is that the recruitment has been on point. The parts are all correct no matter which way you assemble them
Dont delete this GE
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Matt »

simo wrote: May 22, 2019, 11:39 am The only definite here is that the recruitment has been on point. The parts are all correct no matter which way you assemble them
:thumbsup :cmon :clap:
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Raiders_Pat »

Whatever the answer is, I'm not a fan of the second row shuffling idea just for the sake of giving both Bateman and Tapine time on an edge. I think it was a good idea while Tapine was injured to get Young some time on the field at second row but I'd prefer less positional disruption on the edges at full strength. The only scenario I wouldn't mind doing it would be if Young was on the bench to spell Tapine (with Tapine shifting to the middle at the end of the game after a 10-20min break).
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by Raiders_Pat »

It's a good ploy to get the maximum out of our available players when we have guys out injured, but at full strength I think players do their best work if they can focus on one position during the course of a game.
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by simo »

Raiders_Pat wrote: May 22, 2019, 12:17 pm Whatever the answer is, I'm not a fan of the second row shuffling idea just for the sake of giving both Bateman and Tapine time on an edge. I think it was a good idea while Tapine was injured to get Young some time on the field at second row but I'd prefer less positional disruption on the edges at full strength. The only scenario I wouldn't mind doing it would be if Young was on the bench to spell Tapine (with Tapine shifting to the middle at the end of the game after a 10-20min break).
I disagree because i think it provides us with the best defensive option early in the game and the better and fresher attacking options later in the piece. Batemans footwork in around the ruck and a fresh legged tapine 25 mins in? Yeah ill make that swap
Dont delete this GE
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by kiwi raider »

simo wrote: May 22, 2019, 12:50 pm
Raiders_Pat wrote: May 22, 2019, 12:17 pm Whatever the answer is, I'm not a fan of the second row shuffling idea just for the sake of giving both Bateman and Tapine time on an edge. I think it was a good idea while Tapine was injured to get Young some time on the field at second row but I'd prefer less positional disruption on the edges at full strength. The only scenario I wouldn't mind doing it would be if Young was on the bench to spell Tapine (with Tapine shifting to the middle at the end of the game after a 10-20min break).
I disagree because i think it provides us with the best defensive option early in the game and the better and fresher attacking options later in the piece. Batemans footwork in around the ruck and a fresh legged tapine 25 mins in? Yeah ill make that swap
yea i'm starting to really like this idea, also means that while Tapine might not be as good defensively on the edge at least he'll be somewhat fresher so that in turn should help out his ability to cover Williams(be it George or Sam)
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Re: 11, 12, 13

Post by -PJ- »

Either way it's much better than Rothery, Jones and Martin...
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