2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

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Who will win?

Raiders 13+
0
No votes
Raiders 1-12
5
50%
Draw
0
No votes
Rabbitohs 1-12
1
10%
Rabbitohs 13+
4
40%
 
Total votes: 10

The Nickman
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by The Nickman »

julian87 wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:33 am Some very odd posts in this thread.

- Havili is an absolute locked down player in this team unless he absolutely falls to bits. I think once our injured forwards come back his role can and hopefully will be decreased.

But Jesus Christ guys imagine leaving him out for a 4th forward and Hodgson getting sent or failing an HIA in the 5th minute. Seriously think about it guys.

- also talk of carrying a back on the bench when Bateman (specifically) and Tapine are back is absurd imo. That’s the only reason we’re carrying one now. Stuart doesn’t want to use Hunt, Guler, Collins or Bateman if he can help it by the looks and Murchie is injured too.

- I don’t think Sutton is fighting it out with Horsburgh or Young either I think he’s picked well before them. I’d say if our pack gets back to full strength Young and Horsburgh fight it out for the 4th bench spot.

On Tapine. We really could use him for round 12 without Papalii.
I agree with everything you've said here, Jules. I originally had Young on my bench as secondrow cover in front of Horsburgh, but he's really not required as either Bateman or Tapine (whoever is playing lock) can move out to cover second row if needed.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Beejay »

The Rickman wrote: May 20, 2019, 10:35 am
Wiki Special wrote: May 20, 2019, 10:14 am
The Rickman wrote: May 20, 2019, 10:09 am I honestly have no idea how people have Tarps in the middle and Bateman on the edge. Bateman has proven he plays just as well up the guts and Tapine is CLEARLY an edge player.
I disagree. Tapine has played well on an edge, no doubt. But I feel Bateman has been better in attack and defence on an edge. For mine Tapine isn't as quick laterally so I prefer him defending in the middle. Just a personal preference, respect your opinion too.
I disagree
I’m with Wiki, I called for Tapine to be a middle this year. But honestly, Tapine and Bateman for edge or middle is like the Williams/Sezer argument except both options are good.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by The Nickman »

Beejay wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:46 am
The Rickman wrote: May 20, 2019, 10:35 am
Wiki Special wrote: May 20, 2019, 10:14 am
The Rickman wrote: May 20, 2019, 10:09 am I honestly have no idea how people have Tarps in the middle and Bateman on the edge. Bateman has proven he plays just as well up the guts and Tapine is CLEARLY an edge player.
I disagree. Tapine has played well on an edge, no doubt. But I feel Bateman has been better in attack and defence on an edge. For mine Tapine isn't as quick laterally so I prefer him defending in the middle. Just a personal preference, respect your opinion too.
I disagree
I’m with Wiki, I called for Tapine to be a middle this year. But honestly, Tapine and Bateman for edge or middle is like the Williams/Sezer argument except both options are good.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well... touche
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by simo »

At full strength, whats everyones thoughts on bateman starting on the edge with sutton at lock until sutton subs off, bateman pushes into lock and tapine comes onto the edge? I think shortening tapines game to 50-60 mins would really benefit him, especially in defence
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The Nickman
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by The Nickman »

simo wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:52 am At full strength, whats everyones thoughts on bateman starting on the edge with sutton at lock until sutton subs off, bateman pushes into lock and tapine comes onto the edge? I think shortening tapines game to 50-60 mins would really benefit him, especially in defence
I quite like that idea. Run with Lui/Paps in the middle too, which is working well for us at present.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by simo »

The Rickman wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:59 am
simo wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:52 am At full strength, whats everyones thoughts on bateman starting on the edge with sutton at lock until sutton subs off, bateman pushes into lock and tapine comes onto the edge? I think shortening tapines game to 50-60 mins would really benefit him, especially in defence
I quite like that idea. Run with Lui/Paps in the middle too, which is working well for us at present.
Yeah i just did a little mock interchange of how it would potentially play out at full strength and we could comfortably play out games using only 6 interchanges. Theres a lot of minutes covered by our backrow and after papa puts in his atandard 30min stint in the first half, thered be an option to just leave him on the bench all second half depending on how the game goes
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Raiders_Pat »

The Rickman wrote: May 20, 2019, 10:08 am My full strength pack is thus:

8. Papalii
9. Hodgson
10. Sutton
11. Tapine
12. Whitehead
13. Bateman

14. Havili
15. Lui
16. Soliola
17. Horsburgh
I also believe that this is our best pack at full strength with Hudson Young 18th man. Although I think we could do with Tapine in the middle come Origin when Papalii will be out.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by edwahu »

julian87 wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:33 am Some very odd posts in this thread.

- Havili is an absolute locked down player in this team unless he absolutely falls to bits. I think once our injured forwards come back his role can and hopefully will be decreased.

But Jesus Christ guys imagine leaving him out for a 4th forward and Hodgson getting sent or failing an HIA in the 5th minute. Seriously think about it guys.

- also talk of carrying a back on the bench when Bateman (specifically) and Tapine are back is absurd imo. That’s the only reason we’re carrying one now. Stuart doesn’t want to use Hunt, Guler, Collins or Bateman if he can help it by the looks and Murchie is injured too.

- I don’t think Sutton is fighting it out with Horsburgh or Young either I think he’s picked well before them. I’d say if our pack gets back to full strength Young and Horsburgh fight it out for the 4th bench spot.

On Tapine. We really could use him for round 12 without Papalii.
That's a very specific scenario regarding Hodgson and over weighting the risk compared to other players and positions. I can't think of a side that run with a hooker on the bench only as injury coverage. They run 4 forwards, a hooker who plays there, or more of a utility who can cover multiple positions.

We also know Simonsson was going to be used in the ruck off the bench and the coaching staff love him. It's not a stretch to think he is going to be viewed as an emergency hooker.
Last edited by edwahu on May 20, 2019, 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

woppadingo wrote: May 20, 2019, 9:50 am Soliola can also play in the centres, and scored a try last time he did, if I remember correctly.
That was years ago when he was still an edge. He's an out and out middle now and playing far better for it. He's added size since those days.

Havili does a good job in the middle. He breaks tackles , he offloads, he hits hard. This the Lui effect all over again- a guy drops one ball during a good year and suddenly people have them out of the team, Bateman at hooker, Sia in the centres :roflmao

They've all got a chance to show a formline between now and when the crunch comes. For me, I don't want no bench and no proper hooker on the bench. Especially when said bench is also a very effective middle. Hors has shown the most of the two rookies so far, one on the bench is plenty until someone in the pack loses for or fitness. They'll both be in during origin for example. Then they can show me they are consistently so much better than Havilii that we go out on our own as a club and run without a bench utility.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

simo wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:52 am At full strength, whats everyones thoughts on bateman starting on the edge with sutton at lock until sutton subs off, bateman pushes into lock and tapine comes onto the edge? I think shortening tapines game to 50-60 mins would really benefit him, especially in defence
My only concern is the coordination of that edge in defence. None of them are renowned for being good decision makers gelling with others easily.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by edwahu »

It's nothing like the Lui talk. It's a discussion on all players full strength and full fitness.

I also don't think it's true that clubs aren't running a bench utility. We are out on our own if we run a hooker just in case our 80 minute starter gets injured.
Last edited by edwahu on May 20, 2019, 12:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by simo »

BadnMean wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:20 pm
simo wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:52 am At full strength, whats everyones thoughts on bateman starting on the edge with sutton at lock until sutton subs off, bateman pushes into lock and tapine comes onto the edge? I think shortening tapines game to 50-60 mins would really benefit him, especially in defence
My only concern is the coordination of that edge in defence. None of them are renowned for being good decision makers gelling with others easily.
I have confidence in cotric at centre to defend quite well. I really believe sezer would be an upgrade on sam on this edge especially when tapine is back.
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The Nickman
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by The Nickman »

BadnMean wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:18 pm Havili does a good job in the middle. He breaks tackles , he offloads, he hits hard. This the Lui effect all over again- a guy drops one ball during a good year and suddenly people have them out of the team, Bateman at hooker, Sia in the centres :roflmao
Hahaha spot on. This forum is really, really strange at times... both Lui and Havili have played very well this season in their respective roles. Neither of their places within the team should be in jeopardy at all.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Wiki Special »

The positive about this debate is that it highlights the fact we are actually very well served in forward depth. This was a concern going into the season for me and most likely plenty of others.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

simo wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:24 pm
BadnMean wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:20 pm
simo wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:52 am At full strength, whats everyones thoughts on bateman starting on the edge with sutton at lock until sutton subs off, bateman pushes into lock and tapine comes onto the edge? I think shortening tapines game to 50-60 mins would really benefit him, especially in defence
My only concern is the coordination of that edge in defence. None of them are renowned for being good decision makers gelling with others easily.
I have confidence in cotric at centre to defend quite well. I really believe sezer would be an upgrade on sam on this edge especially when tapine is back.
It's interesting. We've had two losses on the bounce but there's less talk than ever of dropping him. He played well with ball in hand last week. Statistically I think he's still the worst defending half for TC/LBC per game. Ricky seems happy enough with what he's doing but we really needed someone dishing out to Cotric on the right vs bunnies.

I've been on team Sam because we seem to flow better with him in the team. I had forgotten to factor Cotric in there instead of Joey, you're right.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by robtheraider »

Interesting debate, valid points all round.

I keep coming back to however, a point which PigRickman always seems to fall back on....upside.

Not sure where everything sits with contracts( not that they seem to matter much nowadays), however you'd have to think that both Young and Hors both have a significantly bigger upside to them that either Lui or Havili

I'd hate to think we would lose either Young or Hors due to Havili or Lui getting more game time....and I wonder how much consideration this garners at the selection table ?
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Wiki Special »

robtheraider wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:46 pm Interesting debate, valid points all round.

I keep coming back to however, a point which PigRickman always seems to fall back on....upside.

Not sure where everything sits with contracts( not that they seem to matter much nowadays), however you'd have to think that both Young and Hors both have a significantly bigger upside to them that either Lui or Havili

I'd hate to think we would lose either Young or Hors due to Havili or Lui getting more game time....and I wonder how much consideration this garners at the selection table ?
I am in agreeance with this. Havili and Lui have been great but keeping Young and Horsburgh helps us far more in the next 5 years.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by julian87 »

edwahu wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:14 pm
julian87 wrote: May 20, 2019, 11:33 am Some very odd posts in this thread.

- Havili is an absolute locked down player in this team unless he absolutely falls to bits. I think once our injured forwards come back his role can and hopefully will be decreased.

But Jesus Christ guys imagine leaving him out for a 4th forward and Hodgson getting sent or failing an HIA in the 5th minute. Seriously think about it guys.

- also talk of carrying a back on the bench when Bateman (specifically) and Tapine are back is absurd imo. That’s the only reason we’re carrying one now. Stuart doesn’t want to use Hunt, Guler, Collins or Bateman if he can help it by the looks and Murchie is injured too.

- I don’t think Sutton is fighting it out with Horsburgh or Young either I think he’s picked well before them. I’d say if our pack gets back to full strength Young and Horsburgh fight it out for the 4th bench spot.

On Tapine. We really could use him for round 12 without Papalii.
That's a very specific scenario regarding Hodgson and over weighting the risk compared to other players and positions. I can't think of a side that run with a hooker on the bench only as injury coverage. They run 4 forwards, a hooker who plays there, or more of a utility who can cover multiple positions.

We also know Simonsson was going to be used in the ruck off the bench and the coaching staff love him. It's not a stretch to think he is going to be viewed as an emergency hooker.
Havili is not a hooker only. He’s made the team essentially as a genuine running forward for 10 weeks now. It’s not just Hodgson that he covers though. I’d suggest our best coverage for Williams is probably him at 9 with Hodgson at 7 too.

There are 5 running forwards in league. So they play 400 minutes between them. Bateman, Papalii, Whitehead and Tapine 260 at least between them, 290 if Tapine is on the edge. So essentially your 4th forward on the bench shouldn’t even really play anyway barring injury.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Raiders_Pat »

Wiki Special wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:48 pm
robtheraider wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:46 pm Interesting debate, valid points all round.

I keep coming back to however, a point which PigRickman always seems to fall back on....upside.

Not sure where everything sits with contracts( not that they seem to matter much nowadays), however you'd have to think that both Young and Hors both have a significantly bigger upside to them that either Lui or Havili

I'd hate to think we would lose either Young or Hors due to Havili or Lui getting more game time....and I wonder how much consideration this garners at the selection table ?
I am in agreeance with this. Havili and Lui have been great but keeping Young and Horsburgh helps us far more in the next 5 years.
The thing about Young and Horsburgh is it's their debut season. I think it would be a concern if either of them were spending a lot of time in reserve grade but they are both getting good game time in the NRL. If you're a rookie and you're selected in the 17 in 50% of the games during the course of your debut season then you're doing pretty well. I can't think of many at Horsburgh's or Young's level who wouldn't be happy with that. Somebody like Guler getting little game time is a much bigger concern in this regard.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by BadnMean »

Both are 20/21 and look like playing 15 games of first grade each this year at a minimum.

I think they'll be well served by knowing the have to improve and outperform every single week to earn their spot, not just be regarded a young talent who can rock up into the team easy because "young talent" (that hasn't worked well for us in the past)- they'll have to go better than a grown man in form. And Lui is responding- I'd say no one thought Lui's ceiling was as good as that game he just had v Souths.

Havillii was just ok- if the kids hold top performance and Havillii doesn't bounce back then fine, one can have his spot but I have no problem at all making them earn that spot the hard way. Better for them in the long run if they ache for it a bit.

As I said, over origin and with injury each will play about 2/3 of the season anyway which is about all most 20 year olds can handle and plenty to develop them at this stage. Not like they have a right to be mooning over not playing- they'll be thinking next year Sia and Lui are on old legs or Havilii might lose a step and yet they'll be bigger and better than ever...
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by julian87 »

edwahu wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:21 pm It's nothing like the Lui talk. It's a discussion on all players full strength and full fitness.

I also don't think it's true that clubs aren't running a bench utility. We are out on our own if we run a hooker just in case our 80 minute starter gets injured.
Havili is a running forward/hooker though I don’t understand this argument. And realistically he’s arguably a more important point of difference than some of the contenders for that spot having lost Leilua imo.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by zim »

We've got Young and Guler wrapped up till 2021 and an option in our favour for Horsburgh for 2020. Soliola likely hangs the boots up at the end of 2020.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by edwahu »

julian87 wrote: May 20, 2019, 1:13 pm
edwahu wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:21 pm It's nothing like the Lui talk. It's a discussion on all players full strength and full fitness.

I also don't think it's true that clubs aren't running a bench utility. We are out on our own if we run a hooker just in case our 80 minute starter gets injured.
Havili is a running forward/hooker though I don’t understand this argument. And realistically he’s arguably a more important point of difference than some of the contenders for that spot having lost Leilua imo.
If he is a running forward then he needs to justify his position as a running forward. If there is a better running forward, then selecting Havili over him because perhaps your 80 minute hooker gets injured isn't a good reason to do so and isn't something you see happen.

This was about who gets picked at full strength. In that context Havili is trending down in minutes vs Horsburgh and we know the intention was to have Simonsson playing in the ruck. So for mine how that plays out will decide what happens to Havili.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Northern Raider »

Havili came into the side as a hooker when Hodgo was injured. Since going back to the bench then he's shown to be a very solid middle forward. His ability to play hooker is now an added bonus if Hodgo is injured or needs to move into halve to cover injury there. Having a guy like that in the 17 is a bonus, not a hindrance.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by edwahu »

I don't think anyone would say it's a hindrance, but the relative value is the question.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by The Nickman »

For the very reasons NR and others have said repeatedly, Havili is very valuable.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Northern Raider »

edwahu wrote: May 20, 2019, 1:28 pm I don't think anyone would say it's a hindrance, but the relative value is the question.
Fair enough but relative value is a subjective debate. I feel he does a good enough job to justify his spot on the bench considering the added insurance of injury cover for the hooker/halves. In isolation as a middle forward you could make a case for somebody else but he's more than that to our squad.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by edwahu »

Yeah fair enough.

Putting aside having a full strength team though, one thing about his ability to play Hooker if Hodgo is injured is that unless we find another dummy half we would be asking him to go from 15-20 minutes a game to 80.

It may make a sense to send him back down for a stint anyway or at least start using someone else in the role if the game situation allows it.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Billy Walker »

Raiders_Pat wrote: May 20, 2019, 1:03 pm
Wiki Special wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:48 pm
robtheraider wrote: May 20, 2019, 12:46 pm Interesting debate, valid points all round.

I keep coming back to however, a point which PigRickman always seems to fall back on....upside.

Not sure where everything sits with contracts( not that they seem to matter much nowadays), however you'd have to think that both Young and Hors both have a significantly bigger upside to them that either Lui or Havili

I'd hate to think we would lose either Young or Hors due to Havili or Lui getting more game time....and I wonder how much consideration this garners at the selection table ?
I am in agreeance with this. Havili and Lui have been great but keeping Young and Horsburgh helps us far more in the next 5 years.
The thing about Young and Horsburgh is it's their debut season. I think it would be a concern if either of them were spending a lot of time in reserve grade but they are both getting good game time in the NRL. If you're a rookie and you're selected in the 17 in 50% of the games during the course of your debut season then you're doing pretty well. I can't think of many at Horsburgh's or Young's level who wouldn't be happy with that. Somebody like Guler getting little game time is a much bigger concern in this regard.
Brad Clyde won the Churchill medal in a premiership team aged 19. I’m glad we didn’t manage him that season to ensure he was content to hang around a few years. I think we need to run with Young and Horsburgh and see what they can do. Havilli warming a bench for 60 minutes in case Hodgo falls over won’t win us a premiership. Both these young blokes have something worth taking a punt on.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Raiders_Pat »

Billy Walker wrote: May 20, 2019, 1:59 pm
Raiders_Pat wrote: May 20, 2019, 1:03 pm The thing about Young and Horsburgh is it's their debut season. I think it would be a concern if either of them were spending a lot of time in reserve grade but they are both getting good game time in the NRL. If you're a rookie and you're selected in the 17 in 50% of the games during the course of your debut season then you're doing pretty well. I can't think of many at Horsburgh's or Young's level who wouldn't be happy with that. Somebody like Guler getting little game time is a much bigger concern in this regard.
Brad Clyde won the Churchill medal in a premiership team aged 19. I’m glad we didn’t manage him that season to ensure he was content to hang around a few years. I think we need to run with Young and Horsburgh and see what they can do. Havilli warming a bench for 60 minutes in case Hodgo falls over won’t win us a premiership. Both these young blokes have something worth taking a punt on.
Young and Horsburgh will both continue to get chances and there will be plenty of opportunity to see what they can do imo. And my best 17 will probably change by the later stages of the season but at this point in time I've got Nickman's team as our best 17.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by greeneyed »

Graham Annesley Monday officiating briefing: https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/05/20/gra ... -round-10/

In sum:

Total penalties are increasing from 95 in Round 1 to 125 in Round 10. Concerning that in Round 10, 38 per cent of penalties conceded in the "red zone"... compared to 20 per cent in Round 1. Will produce more sin binnings if the clubs don't do something about it.

In Round 10, no club had more than 30 per cent of play the balls in defence longer than four seconds (no club by club data).

Penalty goals skyrocketing. 18 per cent of penalties now resulting in penalty goals, seven per cent in Round 1.

Sin bin... counter productive to give warnings, warnings are not required to be given, as clubs believe they have licence to breach the rules until a warning comes. Referees should continue to make own judgement calls, have been told to sin bin if they see a need.

Sam Burgess? Should he have been binned? Certainly a case for him to be sin binned. Probably a case a bit later in that same game when that could have been considered too. No blanket rule, that was a matter of judgement.

Jarrod Croker strip... referee correctly ruled it was a loose carry and a Croker knock on.

Should Josh Hodgson have been sent for an HIA? Process in place now, if there is a concern, we allow the club medical staff to explain, we then consider if that's in compliance in the rules. That takes some time to go through that process.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Wiki Special »

Is the general consensus that Croker was a loose carry? I didn't watch a replay.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by The Nickman »

Wiki Special wrote: May 20, 2019, 2:52 pm Is the general consensus that Croker was a loose carry? I didn't watch a replay.
Looked like it to me.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by Billy Walker »

The Rickman wrote: May 20, 2019, 3:08 pm
Wiki Special wrote: May 20, 2019, 2:52 pm Is the general consensus that Croker was a loose carry? I didn't watch a replay.
Looked like it to me.
I probably would have preferred if he had just scored and won the game but yeah a loose carry I’d say.
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Re: 2019 Rd 10 V Rabbitohs: Game Day

Post by greeneyed »

@TheGHRaiders on Twitter

Time to vote SAM WILLIAMS, Canberra Raiders fans! #NRL #WeAreRaiders #wearecbr

Choose who should win NRL Try of the Week for round 10 https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/05/20/cho ... -round-10/ via @NRL

Round 10 Gallery: Raiders v Rabbitohs: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/05 ... rabbitohs/

Gallery: Around the ground: Raiders v Rabbitohs: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/05 ... he-ground/
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