Williams or Sezer?

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T_R
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by T_R » May 6, 2019, 8:07 am

Woodgers wrote:Because if the hooker doesn't go himself, he prefers to pass the ball to Jack. Or it could be a coach directive, your guess is as good as mine.

As I said 3 weeks ago, we are a team of ball carriers. So if you look at the way we set up with the ball and play, we're mostly trying to break teams down with strong carries rather than ballplaying ability. That's why I suggest that the player Ricky LEAST wants with the ball in hand is Williams, he's his least threatening carrier and Hodgson has the keys to run the team so takes whatever option he wants which doesn't seem to be Sam (and probably won't be Aiden either).

I said this week I don't have a horse in this debate, if all Ricky wants from his halfback is to do his job defensively and put the odd decent kick in (even though Wighton and Hodgson seem to be preferred on those now too) then he might as well switch to Sezer. I'm not overly fussed. But clearly people have a massive agenda against Williams and nitpick at him for every single thing even when he has a solid game and is helping to contribute to 2nd on the table at this point in time. He's a halfback who is used to handling multiple times a set and steering a team around the park, that's his game that got him this far in RL, now all of a sudden when he is the preferred half in an NRL side that is doing well he hides from handling the ball and wants to play completely differently? I'm not buying it. He's not getting the ball even when he wants it and my guess only is that it is Hodgson making that choice more than anyone else.
This is why Im so interested in Wigan Williams coming, as he seems to play a running style of game.
I think Stuart plans to play Hodgson as an organising half at #9, and effectively have two running 5/8s at first receiver.
Will be interesting to watch.

EDIT Sorry, I see you made this point later in the thread, too. So yeah, Echoes.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider » May 6, 2019, 11:03 am

Some reckoned Sam would be 'terrorized' against the Panthers. It didn't look that way to me.

Bigger test this week against the in form Lattrell and Cordner. As long as they keep communicating and hunt together in defence they should be ok. Masters got isolated last week and the Chooks made them pay. A really good test of our defensive prowess coming up.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by yurithe1 » May 6, 2019, 12:33 pm

RedRaider wrote:
May 6, 2019, 11:03 am
Some reckoned Sam would be 'terrorized' against the Panthers. It didn't look that way to me.

Bigger test this week against the in form Lattrell and Cordner. As long as they keep communicating and hunt together in defence they should be ok. Masters got isolated last week and the Chooks made them pay. A really good test of our defensive prowess coming up.
I expect Sammy might be penalised once or twice for shooting out of the line to pressure the ball receiver. It usually works okay for him, but refs have pulled him up for it. The other danger is that he does so and creates a gap that the opposition can exploit.

It will come down to who replaces Bateman to support Williams in defence.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Seiffert82 » May 6, 2019, 12:34 pm

gangrenous wrote:
May 6, 2019, 6:16 am
Almost sounds like Williams is the best option at the moment S82?
Sure does gg. I've been hanging that drum for a while.

The guy has been lambasted for years and yet he keeps on improving his game and taking his opportunities when they are given. He is doing a good job for us.

I love the fact he has clearly worked on his defence and it is showing. That's all I can ever ask of our players. Give me a guy who works hard to improve his weaknesses any day over a bloke who will be up and down depending on his mood and how the rest of the team is going.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 6, 2019, 1:14 pm

yurithe1 wrote:
May 6, 2019, 12:33 pm
RedRaider wrote:
May 6, 2019, 11:03 am
Some reckoned Sam would be 'terrorized' against the Panthers. It didn't look that way to me.

Bigger test this week against the in form Lattrell and Cordner. As long as they keep communicating and hunt together in defence they should be ok. Masters got isolated last week and the Chooks made them pay. A really good test of our defensive prowess coming up.
I expect Sammy might be penalised once or twice for shooting out of the line to pressure the ball receiver. It usually works okay for him, but refs have pulled him up for it. The other danger is that he does so and creates a gap that the opposition can exploit.

It will come down to who replaces Bateman to support Williams in defence.
Based on what I saw on the weekend I'd like to see Whitehead stay on that side. He's been fantastic this year in shutting down opposition attack. Williams also seemed more comfortable holding his position and marking his opposite number with Whitehead there. He wasn't getting stuck in no mans land like he has previously.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by BadnMean » May 6, 2019, 1:15 pm

yurithe1 wrote:
May 6, 2019, 12:33 pm
RedRaider wrote:
May 6, 2019, 11:03 am
Some reckoned Sam would be 'terrorized' against the Panthers. It didn't look that way to me.

Bigger test this week against the in form Lattrell and Cordner. As long as they keep communicating and hunt together in defence they should be ok. Masters got isolated last week and the Chooks made them pay. A really good test of our defensive prowess coming up.
I expect Sammy might be penalised once or twice for shooting out of the line to pressure the ball receiver. It usually works okay for him, but refs have pulled him up for it. The other danger is that he does so and creates a gap that the opposition can exploit.

It will come down to who replaces Bateman to support Williams in defence.
I think Whitehead should have that side and Young/Murchie or even Havilii rotate through the other side so they are fresh and firing- not asking 80 minutes from them but they should be able to contribute a strong stint each.

Worked well defensively vs Panthers with Whitehead switched to the right.That also puts Toots and Jack over on the side with the rookies to help them along, probably a better bet than Williams and BJ in terms of trust and communication.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider » May 6, 2019, 8:23 pm

Young looked very good on the left in attack against the Panthers. I haven't seen his defensive stats but he didn't look a weakness in any way as judged by this bloke standing on the hill in Wagga. Whitehead is an 80 minute player so I expect him to stay on which ever side he is selected. I really think Murchie should be selected to rotate with Young as I don't think we will see Havili, HorsPower or Sia moved from the middle third.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by greeneyed » May 6, 2019, 9:08 pm

RedRaider wrote:
May 6, 2019, 8:23 pm
Young looked very good on the left in attack against the Panthers. I haven't seen his defensive stats but he didn't look a weakness in any way as judged by this bloke standing on the hill in Wagga. Whitehead is an 80 minute player so I expect him to stay on which ever side he is selected. I really think Murchie should be selected to rotate with Young as I don't think we will see Havili, HorsPower or Sia moved from the middle third.
Hudson Young. 22 tackles, one missed tackle, two ineffective tackles, 88 per cent tackle efficiency, two penalties conceded. I thought he had a very good game all round.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider » May 6, 2019, 11:13 pm

Thanks for the stats GE. I think Hudson Young has looked good in FG from the moment he was selected. He is a rookie going up against the Premiers but he looks at home with the challenges so far. Big test for him and the whole side this week. If we get 50% possession and stick with their discipline and communication I think they will be ok.

The Chooks put big scores on sides which become over awed by their reputation. So if the Raiders don't try the miracle plays and focus on their new found ability to grind that will keep them competitive in the game. We cannot afford to gift possession to the Chooks by silly errors and penalties. We need 80 minutes of dedication to the task each player will be set. We have some rocks and diamonds players in our squad. Hopefully there will be very few rocks this weekend.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by greeneyed » May 7, 2019, 12:13 am

RedRaider wrote:
May 6, 2019, 11:13 pm
Thanks for the stats GE. I think Hudson Young has looked good in FG from the moment he was selected. He is a rookie going up against the Premiers but he looks at home with the challenges so far. Big test for him and the whole side this week. If we get 50% possession and stick with their discipline and communication I think they will be ok.

The Chooks put big scores on sides which become over awed by their reputation. So if the Raiders don't try the miracle plays and focus on their new found ability to grind that will keep them competitive in the game. We cannot afford to gift possession to the Chooks by silly errors and penalties. We need 80 minutes of dedication to the task each player will be set. We have some rocks and diamonds players in our squad. Hopefully there will be very few rocks this weekend.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by gangrenous » May 7, 2019, 8:53 am

Seiffert82 wrote:
gangrenous wrote:
May 6, 2019, 6:16 am
Almost sounds like Williams is the best option at the moment S82?
Sure does gg. I've been hanging that drum for a while.

The guy has been lambasted for years and yet he keeps on improving his game and taking his opportunities when they are given. He is doing a good job for us.

I love the fact he has clearly worked on his defence and it is showing. That's all I can ever ask of our players. Give me a guy who works hard to improve his weaknesses any day over a bloke who will be up and down depending on his mood and how the rest of the team is going.
Agreed S82, in the trials he was clearly the better performer and I was quite vocal in objecting to Ricky not having played him enough against quality opposition to be confident in locking him in for round 1. Given the team’s start to the season I have to eat my words on not having them NRL ready, they clearly have been.

People are citing worst defensive stats in the comp for Williams and I’m just not seeing it. I’m seeing him go in make quite a lot of good legs tackles on dangerous opponents. With our defence being the best in the comp and Williams not standing out ridiculously I find it hard to place much value in those stats. He may not be stopping the play dead to get the stat, but in most cases he must be stopping the play. Some credit to the scramble of those round him of course. The scramble defence from the team has been immense.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by greeneyed » May 7, 2019, 9:35 am

The Fox Sports Lab has Sam Williams with second most try causes amongst halves (Nikorima 7, Williams 6, Hunt and Morgan 5), most for line break causes (Williams 10, Hunt 7). His missed tackle count pretty low (Morgan and Nikorima 31, Williams well down the list at 11). Ineffective (Croft 16, Williams well down the list 6). Tackle efficiency 83 per cent. (Comparators, Brimson and Cronk 89, are benchmarks, same or below him, Croft 83, Keary, Hunt, Reynolds, Elgey on 82, Taylor and Brooks on 81, Green 80, Moses 79).

In two games, Sezer had no try or line break causes, six missed tackles, 76 per cent tackle efficiency. Hard to tell much from stats for two games.

Click the link... you can see all the defensive stats for halves and order them from highest or lowest by category:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... y=lbCauses
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu » May 7, 2019, 9:40 am

Williams has had a couple of poor games where I think he produced 4 of those Try causes. Overall I think he has had more good defensive games than bad ones.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Rickman » May 7, 2019, 10:05 am

This is where when people talk about the "eye test"... in my opinion Williams is vastly improved in defence this season, he's bulked up and he's made quite a few good tackles while defending our line. He's still let a few in, but your halves always will (Wighton has let a few in too), so it's not the end of the world.

I'm very happy for Williams to hold his spot in first grade while he and the team are playing like they currently are, but as I've said repeatedly, I don't think we're in a position where we should be punting Aiden Sezer just yet.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by greeneyed » May 7, 2019, 10:31 am

If the team is winning with Sam Williams in it, Sam Williams deserves his place. It is up to Aidan Sezer to make a case at Mounties that's impossible to ignore to get back to firsts. There's not a lot of difference, overall, between the two players. Sezer has the better defence, Williams is better organising, kicking and in attack.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Rickman » May 7, 2019, 10:36 am

greeneyed wrote:
May 7, 2019, 10:31 am
If the team is winning with Sam Williams in it, Sam Williams deserves his place. It is up to Aidan Sezer to make a case at Mounties that's impossible to ignore to get back to firsts. There's not a lot of difference, overall, between the two players. Sezer has the better defence, Williams is better organising, kicking and in attack.
Agreed 100%. But as I keep saying over and over, we're not in a position where we should be punting Aiden Sezer "in preparation for 2020" just yet.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by greeneyed » May 7, 2019, 10:41 am

The Rickman wrote:
May 7, 2019, 10:36 am
greeneyed wrote:
May 7, 2019, 10:31 am
If the team is winning with Sam Williams in it, Sam Williams deserves his place. It is up to Aidan Sezer to make a case at Mounties that's impossible to ignore to get back to firsts. There's not a lot of difference, overall, between the two players. Sezer has the better defence, Williams is better organising, kicking and in attack.
Agreed 100%. But as I keep saying over and over, we're not in a position where we should be punting Aiden Sezer "in preparation for 2020" just yet.
I agree. Clubs don't win premierships with just two first grade quality halves. You need three.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Dogman7 » May 11, 2019, 7:13 am

Watching super League this season is very boring all the best players going to NRL , who can blame them, I hope Jake Conner hull FC goes overseas when his contract expires in 2021, Wayne Bennet gave Jake his debut against New Zealand, Leeds rhinos were after signing him, 24years old

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 11, 2019, 1:04 pm

Dogman7 wrote:
May 11, 2019, 7:13 am
Watching super League this season is very boring all the best players going to NRL , who can blame them, I hope Jake Conner hull FC goes overseas when his contract expires in 2021, Wayne Bennet gave Jake his debut against New Zealand, Leeds rhinos were after signing him, 24years old
Yup quite funny to think ESL had the big money around 15 years ago. If you look at their salary cap now not only is the NRL the tougher league but a marquee ESL player will earn a comparable salary being the 5th highest paid player at an NRL club.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Peter » May 12, 2019, 12:27 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 11, 2019, 1:04 pm
Dogman7 wrote:
May 11, 2019, 7:13 am
Watching super League this season is very boring all the best players going to NRL , who can blame them, I hope Jake Conner hull FC goes overseas when his contract expires in 2021, Wayne Bennet gave Jake his debut against New Zealand, Leeds rhinos were after signing him, 24years old
Yup quite funny to think ESL had the big money around 15 years ago. If you look at their salary cap now not only is the NRL the tougher league but a marquee ESL player will earn a comparable salary being the 5th highest paid player at an NRL club.
Who would be on more than Bateman in our team? You’d think there would be quite a few.

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And he’d probably be on par with the likes of Whitehead, Leilua. No doubt his value has sky rocketed since he arrived but I think he came here to prove himself more than anything else.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by KingDynamite » May 12, 2019, 4:30 pm

I am looking forward to seeing Sezer back next week!
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu » May 12, 2019, 4:31 pm

Sam couldn't have come up with a worse miss than the one after half time.

I thought it was one of his better games with the ball but he ran it too much.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by julian87 » May 12, 2019, 4:36 pm

My main reason for keeping Williams was creating space for the outside backs. That hasn’t happened so I wouldn’t be dirty to see Sezer back.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Timbo » May 12, 2019, 4:40 pm

I think I’d like Sezer back next week please.

Williams was about as effective as a gentle breeze in defence today.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by PigRickman » May 12, 2019, 4:44 pm

Id keep the same team, that scoreline is flattering big time
the roosters play their best 17 all game and it's a 50 burger.

That's the standard, they've now faced both the storm and roosters and been completed outclassed on both occasions, and our halfbacks were dreadful in both.

I think that miss by Williams in which a second rower sauntered through his channel untouched will be VERY hard to watch in the video session for Stuart but i think this 17, Williams included should get a crack next week to sort it the **** out.

But as others have said, the problem is that Williams is sold on his ability to provide better attack, and so far that just hasnt been the case... so if he's not making us better in attack and he's pull **** like that in defence? again that's hard for a coach to stick with.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by AUSTEZER » May 12, 2019, 8:37 pm

Yep Time to get Aidan back

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by FROG » May 12, 2019, 9:49 pm

You blokes are taking the piss right. I continue to ask what Sezer will offer that is so appealing? If defence is the only metric then play neither of them. Williams will and should keep his place in the side next week.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by exrefhollywood » May 12, 2019, 9:51 pm

If Williams is the NRL standard halfback, you could ask any a grade footballer to do exactly what he does.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu » May 12, 2019, 10:14 pm

FROG wrote:
May 12, 2019, 9:49 pm
You blokes are taking the piss right. I continue to ask what Sezer will offer that is so appealing? If defence is the only metric then play neither of them. Williams will and should keep his place in the side next week.
People keep saying it. First grade quality defense.

What does Williams offer over Sezer that makes up for the gap in their defense?

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 12, 2019, 10:27 pm

I was previously critical of Williams for not taking the line on and simply catching and passing or kicking. He had a crack today at least.
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Williams or Sezer

Post by gangrenous » May 12, 2019, 10:27 pm

edwahu wrote: What does Williams offer over Sezer that makes up for the gap in their defense?
Wins?

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 12, 2019, 11:09 pm

gangrenous wrote:
May 12, 2019, 10:27 pm
edwahu wrote: What does Williams offer over Sezer that makes up for the gap in their defense?
Wins?
Was brought up earlier. Stats don't support the theory.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by BadnMean » May 12, 2019, 11:31 pm

exrefhollywood coming out swinging tonight. That one hurt? I feel ya!

For me, we can't chop and change every 2 weeks. I'd give Williams next week too. His chance to put a case. We have a known quantity in waiting, let's be very sure what we are seeing before a final change. If we don't get over Souths and Burgess (he plays that side yeah?) turns us inside out then maybe we have issues. He held Kikau just fine. Oldfield inside him has a history of being totally lost at FG centre IIRC. I'll take another look and see.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 13, 2019, 12:20 am

BadnMean wrote:
May 12, 2019, 11:31 pm
exrefhollywood coming out swinging tonight. That one hurt? I feel ya!

For me, we can't chop and change every 2 weeks. I'd give Williams next week too. His chance to put a case. We have a known quantity in waiting, let's be very sure what we are seeing before a final change. If we don't get over Souths and Burgess (he plays that side yeah?) turns us inside out then maybe we have issues. He held Kikau just fine. Oldfield inside him has a history of being totally lost at FG centre IIRC. I'll take another look and see.
Agree. Wouldn't go chopping and changing on the back of a loss to the competition benchmark team.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 13, 2019, 5:04 am

edwahu wrote:
May 12, 2019, 10:14 pm
FROG wrote:
May 12, 2019, 9:49 pm
You blokes are taking the piss right. I continue to ask what Sezer will offer that is so appealing? If defence is the only metric then play neither of them. Williams will and should keep his place in the side next week.
People keep saying it. First grade quality defense.

What does Williams offer over Sezer that makes up for the gap in their defense?
Many things have been pointed out that Williams does better than Sezer. Kicking and not reacting like a headless chicken when put under pressure are the main two for mine.

Is that enough to earn him the spot? That's certainly up for debate. All I know is they are much of a muchness, and Sezer has shown nothing for 24 months that demands he comes back into the team after one loss.

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