Williams or Sezer?

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afgtnk
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by afgtnk » May 4, 2019, 11:23 pm

Personally I think it's fantastic that some prominent posters on this forum have finally started paying attention to how the halfback of our team performs, and what he does throughout a game.

I mean we almost NEVER saw this level of scrutiny or criticism from them between 2016-2018, to the point where they'd do anything under the sun to divert conversation away from the topic, but still, good to see they've finally starting taking a serious interest in the guy occupying the #7 shirt.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 5, 2019, 8:11 am

Yup I had no idea people saw Sezer as such a good performer over that period until this thread came alive.

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Williams or Sezer

Post by The Rickman » May 5, 2019, 8:20 am

What I really noticed against Penrith was the amount of times we’d be attacking their line, Williams would be standing at first receiver, Hodgson would look at him, and then go the other way or go himself.

That simply has to stop


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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu » May 5, 2019, 8:48 am

The Rickman wrote:
May 5, 2019, 8:20 am
What I really noticed against Penrith was the amount of times we’d be attacking their line, Williams would be standing at first receiver, Hodgson would look at him, and then go the other way or go himself.

That simply has to stop


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This happened about twice.

Regardless, why does it have to stop? We are 6-2 using the tactics we are and put 30 pts on yesterday.

The reality is Williams didn't get the football because Wighton got a lot more of it, which was a very good decision.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 8:56 am

edwahu wrote:
May 5, 2019, 8:48 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 5, 2019, 8:20 am
What I really noticed against Penrith was the amount of times we’d be attacking their line, Williams would be standing at first receiver, Hodgson would look at him, and then go the other way or go himself.

That simply has to stop


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This happened about twice.

Regardless, why does it have to stop? We are 6-2 using the tactics we are and put 30 pts on yesterday.

The reality is Williams didn't get the football because Wighton got a lot more of it, which was a very good decision.
Maybe Wighton gets the ball twice as often because he's twice as likely to do something with it?
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu » May 5, 2019, 9:07 am

Yep, that's my point.

I am yet to hear one objective reason as to why Williams needed more football yesterday.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Beejay » May 5, 2019, 9:11 am

At the ground, I was happy. He exceeded my expectations. He was safe and solid.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Woodgers » May 5, 2019, 9:12 am

I agree with you both Edwahu and NR, Jack is more likely to do something so gets the ball. That makes perfect sense to me.

The points I’m making is Williams is being criticised for his involvement which I think is unfair. The bloke has holes in his games but if people are going to pelt him then it needs to be on the right things. He can’t have a statistically brilliant game and set the world on fire in the current environment. That’s basically my main point of posting in this thread.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 9:18 am

Woodgers wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:12 am
I agree with you both Edwahu and NR, Jack is more likely to do something so gets the ball. That makes perfect sense to me.

The points I’m making is Williams is being criticised for his involvement which I think is unfair. The bloke has holes in his games but if people are going to pelt him then it needs to be on the right things. He can’t have a statistically brilliant game and set the world on fire in the current environment. That’s basically my main point of posting in this thread.
Not arguing with that. The comments were more directed to those who claim that Williams needs to be given the ball more.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 5, 2019, 9:54 am

I just think it's funny that given how many close losses we have had with Sezer running the ship the past few years we turn on his replacement so quickly. Williams isn't setting the world on fire but he is doing enough to help the team get over the line. I would think his error count is very low amongst halves.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 11:46 am

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:54 am
I just think it's funny that given how many close losses we have had with Sezer running the ship the past few years we turn on his replacement so quickly. Williams isn't setting the world on fire but he is doing enough to help the team get over the line. I would think his error count is very low amongst halves.
You're skipping over the core discussion. Nobody is "turning on the replacement".
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu » May 5, 2019, 11:53 am

I've always preferred Williams with the football to Sezer but felt unless you have first grade defense you shouldn't be in the first grade side. He has improved a lot this season in that regard, so for me he holds his spot.

Whether he should get more football is another issue. I mean yesterday he had Oldfield and Simmonsson outside him and still people wanted us to go more often to that side. It shows that people are wanting balance for balances sake.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 11:57 am

Thing is we know that Williams can be a good ball player. He's demonstrated that in the past. Problem is we rarely see it and I really don't know why.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by afgtnk » May 5, 2019, 12:15 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:57 am
Thing is we know that Williams can be a good ball player. He's demonstrated that in the past. Problem is we rarely see it and I really don't know why.
Absolutely wild guess here but it might be because he doesn't get to touch the ball much in the right spots

Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:46 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:54 am
I just think it's funny that given how many close losses we have had with Sezer running the ship the past few years we turn on his replacement so quickly. Williams isn't setting the world on fire but he is doing enough to help the team get over the line. I would think his error count is very low amongst halves.
You're skipping over the core discussion. Nobody is "turning on the replacement".
:lol:

Sure

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 5, 2019, 12:22 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:46 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:54 am
I just think it's funny that given how many close losses we have had with Sezer running the ship the past few years we turn on his replacement so quickly. Williams isn't setting the world on fire but he is doing enough to help the team get over the line. I would think his error count is very low amongst halves.
You're skipping over the core discussion. Nobody is "turning on the replacement".
They were less than 24 hours ago. And I'm sure they will be again after our next loss.

The rest is pretty clear. When using our halfback in a minimalist link man role such as Shane Perry and David Penna have filled in the past. The role is all about reduction of errors and over involvement (that has stunted our momentum in many instances) when compared to Sezer from what I can see, accepting that there is some slip back in defense. So Williams role is all about doing less and being more precise in what he does than Sezer has been the last couple of years.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 1:02 pm

afgtnk wrote:
May 5, 2019, 12:15 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:57 am
Thing is we know that Williams can be a good ball player. He's demonstrated that in the past. Problem is we rarely see it and I really don't know why.
Absolutely wild guess here but it might be because he doesn't get to touch the ball much in the right spots
Yep, everybody else's fault except the player in question.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 1:04 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 5, 2019, 12:22 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:46 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:54 am
I just think it's funny that given how many close losses we have had with Sezer running the ship the past few years we turn on his replacement so quickly. Williams isn't setting the world on fire but he is doing enough to help the team get over the line. I would think his error count is very low amongst halves.
You're skipping over the core discussion. Nobody is "turning on the replacement".
They were less than 24 hours ago. And I'm sure they will be again after our next loss.

The rest is pretty clear. When using our halfback in a minimalist link man role such as Shane Perry and David Penna have filled in the past. The role is all about reduction of errors and over involvement (that has stunted our momentum in many instances) when compared to Sezer from what I can see, accepting that there is some slip back in defense. So Williams role is all about doing less and being more precise in what he does than Sezer has been the last couple of years.
Yeah so his job is not to be ****. With that level of expectation it shouldn't be too hard to succeed.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu » May 5, 2019, 1:12 pm

Since when did Williams become some rookie who we haven't seen play? He has 90 first grade games, there is a huge sample size of games he has played with and without Hodgson and his possession stats show he has had plenty of football throughout the years. We even have 4 games this year where he had 35-40.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by afgtnk » May 5, 2019, 1:35 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 1:02 pm
afgtnk wrote:
May 5, 2019, 12:15 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:57 am
Thing is we know that Williams can be a good ball player. He's demonstrated that in the past. Problem is we rarely see it and I really don't know why.
Absolutely wild guess here but it might be because he doesn't get to touch the ball much in the right spots
Yep, everybody else's fault except the player in question.
What would you like him to do, shove Hodgson out of the road at dummy half just so he can touch the ball?. **** me. He screams for it.

Whether that's tactics or Hodgson wanting to ball hog, I don't know. We're also running considerably less shape and lines at the opposition ths year, which is affecting all ball players.

That said, again, we're 6-2. Whatever we're doing is working so stop whinging.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 1:40 pm

afgtnk wrote:
May 5, 2019, 1:35 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 1:02 pm
afgtnk wrote:
May 5, 2019, 12:15 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:57 am
Thing is we know that Williams can be a good ball player. He's demonstrated that in the past. Problem is we rarely see it and I really don't know why.
Absolutely wild guess here but it might be because he doesn't get to touch the ball much in the right spots
Yep, everybody else's fault except the player in question.
What would you like him to do, shove Hodgson out of the road at dummy half just so he can touch the ball?. **** me. He screams for it.

Whether that's tactics or Hodgson wanting to ball hog, I don't know. We're also running considerably less shape and lines at the opposition ths year, which is affecting all ball players.

That said, again, we're 6-2. Whatever we're doing is working so stop whinging.
Settle petal. We get it. Williams lack of involvement is because of his teammates. Yes, we're 6-2 so maybe his teammates are on to something. :hmmm
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by yurithe1 » May 5, 2019, 1:59 pm

Quick question: anyone know what Williams' stats are for try assists?

He seems to have put up a few pinpoint kicks that have led to tries.

Apart from that, he made Edrick Lee's life difficult a few weeks ago with some kicks that came down in the corner and a few metres from the in-goal.

He's come up with a 40/20 as well this season, IIRC.

Managed to put in a couple of field goals too.

So, he's doing more than avoiding screwing it up and answered the calls for a halfback with a kicking game.

Add to that Wigthon's repeated statements that he feels more comfortable playing 5/8th with Williams at half.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider » May 5, 2019, 2:20 pm

Williams has 2 TAs. Yesterday plus the bomb he put up for Wighton try vs Eels
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider » May 5, 2019, 3:38 pm

In yesterdays match in Wagga in the second half Sam went into dummy half only to be moved out of the way by Hodgo. It led to a spat between the two. It was not the last tackle so I am unsure why Hodgo reacted the way he did. Regular hooker and co-captain so he is always going to get his way, but it sure looked odd.

I am one of Sams biggest supporters on here but I think NR is correct in saying he has to run the ball at least some of the time. He ran in the Newcastle match and scored a try near the sticks. If a player doesn't run at all, then he can't replicate that. It may well be the Coaches instructions to play as he is. But running at the line with the ball in two hands creates some doubt, particularly if CNK or a backrower are on the outside. He has some footwork and a step, if not blinding speed. Even the roll of 'catch and pass' can be more effective if he backs up close to the ball receiver to give them an option for an offload. It's hard to argue with a 6-2 season start (of which 5-1 are with Sam in the 7), but we should always be looking to improve how we play.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Seiffert82 » May 5, 2019, 6:04 pm

We've got arguably the best 3/4 line in the comp and some of the NRL's most dynamic backrowers in our pack too. Hodgson is clearly our general in attack - just like Smith is with the Storm. Our new fullback is also the goods - sniffing around the ruck for offloads and getting onto kicks. Jack Wighton is also having a fantastic time of it, running the ball with real purpose and being more consistent with his passing and kicking game every match.

With that in mind, whoever is playing halfback in this team has a simple role of being a decent kicking option in attack, holding the line in defence and making sure our outside backs get decent ball when they ask for it.

Sam is doing a pretty good job of it. He seriously doesn't have to do much more than what he is. IMO all he needs to improve is finding grass more regularly with his long kicking game, and perhaps taking on the line a bit more in that 20-40 metre zone in attack.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Woodgers » May 5, 2019, 7:14 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 5, 2019, 12:22 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
May 5, 2019, 11:46 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:54 am
I just think it's funny that given how many close losses we have had with Sezer running the ship the past few years we turn on his replacement so quickly. Williams isn't setting the world on fire but he is doing enough to help the team get over the line. I would think his error count is very low amongst halves.
You're skipping over the core discussion. Nobody is "turning on the replacement".
They were less than 24 hours ago. And I'm sure they will be again after our next loss.

The rest is pretty clear. When using our halfback in a minimalist link man role such as Shane Perry and David Penna have filled in the past. The role is all about reduction of errors and over involvement (that has stunted our momentum in many instances) when compared to Sezer from what I can see, accepting that there is some slip back in defense. So Williams role is all about doing less and being more precise in what he does than Sezer has been the last couple of years.
Yeah that's a pretty accurate summary RK.

As I said the George Williams thing now makes sense. Seems to me like Ricky just wants a powerful 5/8 either side of the ruck that can run and draw the defence in, pass when needed and not be a general stepping on Hodgo's toes. If George can kick a bit to compliment strong defence then he fits the criteria nicely. Judging by the success that Ricky has had trying to develop a playmaker that plays like he did, this probably isn't a bad thing.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by PigRickman » May 5, 2019, 7:39 pm

Woodgers wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:12 am
I agree with you both Edwahu and NR, Jack is more likely to do something so gets the ball. That makes perfect sense to me.

The points I’m making is Williams is being criticised for his involvement which I think is unfair. The bloke has holes in his games but if people are going to pelt him then it needs to be on the right things. He can’t have a statistically brilliant game and set the world on fire in the current environment. That’s basically my main point of posting in this thread.
No one is asking him to be "statistically brilliant", we're asking him to do what he did last night, which was not remotely statistically brilliant. He gets his hands on the footy enough in the red zone to create something if he's good enough. Last night he was, he spotted the fullback out of position and an aggressive centre, and rolled it in for an easy try.
Give me that once a game and defend like he did last night and we're good.
Again, no one is asking him to be "statistically brilliant"
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by rayden83 » May 5, 2019, 8:02 pm

Remember 2016 when we were going gangbusters and everyone thought Sezer was a gun and praised his game management, despite doing nothing? The same thing is happening this season, we are winning again and the endorphins and serotonin is flowing and that’s putting a rose tint on everything including underachievers like Williams. Rather than being praised his for playmaking skills, excellent kicking game, passing variety and skillset, he is being praised for non tangibles such as a his positioning, effort in defence, linkage with the backs, etc. This is a sure sign that our half back is a dud.

I get it, we are winning, why change a winning formula, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it etc. But platitudes don’t win Premierships, and if we want to one day be a serious contender for a Premiership rather than occassionally making the top 8, we need to find a long term half back solution. Sam Williams isn’t good enough.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by PigRickman » May 5, 2019, 8:06 pm

And to your point, nor is Sezer... and Stuart knows it... hence this discussion is about who place holds for George Williams who hopefully WILL be good enough
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by rayden83 » May 5, 2019, 8:36 pm

It’s inevitable that as the season progresses, should we continue our winning form, pundits and fans will vouch for Sammy to continue in the HB role.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by gergreg » May 5, 2019, 8:40 pm

PigRickman wrote:And to your point, nor is Sezer... and Stuart knows it... hence this discussion is about who place holds for George Williams who hopefully WILL be good enough
And hopefully he is good enough when he gets here because history shows that he isn't improving once he is here, if Ricky has anything to do with it.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by PigRickman » May 5, 2019, 8:44 pm

gergreg wrote:
May 5, 2019, 8:40 pm
PigRickman wrote:And to your point, nor is Sezer... and Stuart knows it... hence this discussion is about who place holds for George Williams who hopefully WILL be good enough
And hopefully he is good enough when he gets here because history shows that he isn't improving once he is here, if Ricky has anything to do with it.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by afgtnk » May 5, 2019, 8:53 pm

I was sure this way made to be absolutely clear but I'm seeing that it isn't. The bottom line is that no halfback at this club is good enough to be the starting #7. If we want to push to win a premiership anytime soon, we need 100% need a better halfback.

I'm of the firm view that we should be keeping Williams and punting Sezer ASAP. At present, giving Williams game time gives him more valuable experience that he can use to good effect as our backup over the next couple of seasons, whilst keep Sezer at Mounties helps in showing the door and getting him to agitate for a move elsewhere. He is wasting valuable cap space.

That Williams gets praise is commensurate to people's understanding of his ability, their view of his role at the club, and what he earns in his job. He is a backup half and plays like one. Much like Sezer, except he trys to sell himself as a quality starting player when he clearly is not, and takes home probably double what Sam does without being any better than him.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Woodgers » May 5, 2019, 9:57 pm

PigRickman wrote:
May 5, 2019, 7:39 pm
Woodgers wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:12 am
I agree with you both Edwahu and NR, Jack is more likely to do something so gets the ball. That makes perfect sense to me.

The points I’m making is Williams is being criticised for his involvement which I think is unfair. The bloke has holes in his games but if people are going to pelt him then it needs to be on the right things. He can’t have a statistically brilliant game and set the world on fire in the current environment. That’s basically my main point of posting in this thread.
No one is asking him to be "statistically brilliant", we're asking him to do what he did last night, which was not remotely statistically brilliant. He gets his hands on the footy enough in the red zone to create something if he's good enough. Last night he was, he spotted the fullback out of position and an aggressive centre, and rolled it in for an easy try.
Give me that once a game and defend like he did last night and we're good.
Again, no one is asking him to be "statistically brilliant"
No one is asking that but I made that point because people are picking the eyes out of his every game and his lack of involvement has become a central talking point. So i'm simply saying under the current set up it ain't happening, he's not going to see enough footy to highlight the best part of his game (which i'm aware you're no fan of) therefore his stats are never going to be great through no fault of his own.

I would point out that while you've pointed out what he did yesterday for that 1st try, do you recall the lead up to that? Hodgson when left, stopped almost killing the play, did a 180 and chucked it to Williams as an afterthought which he made something of off the cuff. It speaks to the point i've made, he was never even meant to get the ball there due to Hodgson's decision making. Now none of us know whether he was calling for it but he probably was.

I can already see what is going to happen. Soon enough people will start comparing his stats on things like try assists, line break assists, run metre and whatever else and compare them to those of Sezer at Mounties as a reason to swap them over without considering the barriers Williams is currently facing in the top side. And it's no secret he's not a gun defender so like any half he's due a hard day out sooner rather than later and then the wolves will be knocking down the door complaining about what he hasn't done 'statistically' without considering the whole story. Yesterday's game that you said you'll take will be forgotten in a fortnight.
We continue to **** about with blokes that are part of some fraternity. It's infuriating.

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Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 21651
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Seiffert82 » May 6, 2019, 1:40 am

Woodgers wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:57 pm
PigRickman wrote:
May 5, 2019, 7:39 pm
Woodgers wrote:
May 5, 2019, 9:12 am
I agree with you both Edwahu and NR, Jack is more likely to do something so gets the ball. That makes perfect sense to me.

The points I’m making is Williams is being criticised for his involvement which I think is unfair. The bloke has holes in his games but if people are going to pelt him then it needs to be on the right things. He can’t have a statistically brilliant game and set the world on fire in the current environment. That’s basically my main point of posting in this thread.
No one is asking him to be "statistically brilliant", we're asking him to do what he did last night, which was not remotely statistically brilliant. He gets his hands on the footy enough in the red zone to create something if he's good enough. Last night he was, he spotted the fullback out of position and an aggressive centre, and rolled it in for an easy try.
Give me that once a game and defend like he did last night and we're good.
Again, no one is asking him to be "statistically brilliant"
No one is asking that but I made that point because people are picking the eyes out of his every game and his lack of involvement has become a central talking point. So i'm simply saying under the current set up it ain't happening, he's not going to see enough footy to highlight the best part of his game (which i'm aware you're no fan of) therefore his stats are never going to be great through no fault of his own.

I would point out that while you've pointed out what he did yesterday for that 1st try, do you recall the lead up to that? Hodgson when left, stopped almost killing the play, did a 180 and chucked it to Williams as an afterthought which he made something of off the cuff. It speaks to the point i've made, he was never even meant to get the ball there due to Hodgson's decision making. Now none of us know whether he was calling for it but he probably was.

I can already see what is going to happen. Soon enough people will start comparing his stats on things like try assists, line break assists, run metre and whatever else and compare them to those of Sezer at Mounties as a reason to swap them over without considering the barriers Williams is currently facing in the top side. And it's no secret he's not a gun defender so like any half he's due a hard day out sooner rather than later and then the wolves will be knocking down the door complaining about what he hasn't done 'statistically' without considering the whole story. Yesterday's game that you said you'll take will be forgotten in a fortnight.
Excellent post.

This team doesn't need a dominant, or organising style halfback to score points. We haven't in 5 years.

What we do need though, is a 7 who can consistently find space and distance with their kicks and someone who has the nuance in their short kicking game to get repeat sets and give our backline a shot in contesting the ball. They also need to keep composed when we are behind in a tight game or winding down the clock.

Our halfback doesn't need to be a strong ball runner (why on earth people identify that as a priority for us I'll never know) nor do they have to organise the ruck. They just need to give good, clean ball to our outside backs, who are arguably the best in the comp, have the kicking game to give us field position, and maybe even have the ability to kick a field goal in a tight contest.

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gangrenous
Ricky Stuart
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by gangrenous » May 6, 2019, 6:16 am

Almost sounds like Williams is the best option at the moment S82?

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