Williams or Sezer?

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zim
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by zim »

If that's how it's going I think we do see something different with George Williams. Hodgo seems much more relaxed (if that's the right term) at an international level.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by FROG »

Northern Raider wrote: May 2, 2019, 7:07 pm
FROG wrote: May 2, 2019, 6:28 pm If we are discussing stats.. How about how many times they've kicked the ball out on the full. How many repeat sets they've forced. Kick meters etc. If defense is your only requirement for half then I'd be playing neither of them. Elliot would be wearing 7.
I think you missed the key part of that argument. Basically peope saying Williams does not offer enough with the ball to offset his defensive issues.
I think you missed the key part of the point I'm making. I'm asking people who are making the argument that Williams doesn't offer more with the ball to support their argument with statistics
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

zim wrote: May 2, 2019, 8:33 pm If that's how it's going I think we do see something different with George Williams. Hodgo seems much more relaxed (if that's the right term) at an international level.
Lets hope so, he's the 2nd best hooker in the world when (IMO at least) he feels comfortable enough to pick and choose his spots
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by simo »

FROG wrote: May 2, 2019, 9:12 pm
Northern Raider wrote: May 2, 2019, 7:07 pm
FROG wrote: May 2, 2019, 6:28 pm If we are discussing stats.. How about how many times they've kicked the ball out on the full. How many repeat sets they've forced. Kick meters etc. If defense is your only requirement for half then I'd be playing neither of them. Elliot would be wearing 7.
I think you missed the key part of that argument. Basically peope saying Williams does not offer enough with the ball to offset his defensive issues.
I think you missed the key part of the point I'm making. I'm asking people who are making the argument that Williams doesn't offer more with the ball to support their argument with statistics
No ones saying he doesnt offer more. People are saying his offence offset his poor defence.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider »

FROG wrote: May 2, 2019, 9:12 pm
Northern Raider wrote: May 2, 2019, 7:07 pm
FROG wrote: May 2, 2019, 6:28 pm If we are discussing stats.. How about how many times they've kicked the ball out on the full. How many repeat sets they've forced. Kick meters etc. If defense is your only requirement for half then I'd be playing neither of them. Elliot would be wearing 7.
I think you missed the key part of that argument. Basically peope saying Williams does not offer enough with the ball to offset his defensive issues.
I think you missed the key part of the point I'm making. I'm asking people who are making the argument that Williams doesn't offer more with the ball to support their argument with statistics
I fully understand your point and it's flawed. There is very little statistical evidence to show Williams is adding anything to our attack. Therefore it's going to be very hard to find them.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

FROG wrote: May 2, 2019, 9:12 pm
Northern Raider wrote: May 2, 2019, 7:07 pm
FROG wrote: May 2, 2019, 6:28 pm If we are discussing stats.. How about how many times they've kicked the ball out on the full. How many repeat sets they've forced. Kick meters etc. If defense is your only requirement for half then I'd be playing neither of them. Elliot would be wearing 7.
I think you missed the key part of that argument. Basically peope saying Williams does not offer enough with the ball to offset his defensive issues.
I think you missed the key part of the point I'm making. I'm asking people who are making the argument that Williams doesn't offer more with the ball to support their argument with statistics
Sezer is incredibly limited as an attacking player, and in the games Williams had played, stats showed he basically made an immaterial difference to us in attack... on the downside, Williams (according to posters above) is the worst defensive half in the competition.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by BadnMean »

PigRickman wrote: May 2, 2019, 8:14 pm
BadnMean wrote: May 2, 2019, 1:38 pm Edit: his missed tackles in total or on average aren't bad really... Suggests teams are picking their moment against him or he's only bad when isolated?
He does well in general play to try and stay out of the frame, his mistackle count benefits greatly given he shoots the line 4-5 times a game and gets fresh air. Hard to make a tackle when you've come in on a back rower and let the fullback slide through untouched

But mostly it's isolation. That's the ball game for our opposition halves. Get numbers on Williams side, William's inside man with late ball playing, hold his outside man with the threat of the fullback, and hit the back rower flat one on one with Williams.
It's not points every time they do it, sometimes he just makes the tackle, sometimes the backrower inside him get there in time to help, Beej is actually pretty good at coming in to help himself (which of course leaves us 3-1, if an offload comes) and CNK is doing a great job of coming in and lending his support too
It's not a slam dunk, but it's fair to say every half decent play maker identifies this avenue as an area to expose us with
That's a pretty solid plan for most teams vs most halves to be fair.

I'm more concerned now that I've seen the try/break cause numbers from a 5 game sample. Mostly games we've won so perhaps we're coping or it's going to hit the fan we hit teams like Rooters and Bunnies soon who have both the organisation and firepower to really exploit that weakness.

Anyway, right now I hope Sam does pick his moments to get up into Kikau without Maloney or Cleary getting someone through the hole behind and proves a little point for himself. Team game though, if our pack can get on top and crowd their room and our kicking game is good the Panthers will get a few less opportunities to run that play.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider »

I hope our new right winger can catch an attacking bomb. Sam put up 2 which were knocked on last week, one by BJ and one by Cotric. Also his 40/20 was wasted by Jacks forward pass to EW. A kick is only ever as good as it's chase. We had 3 clear opportunities created by Sam but not capitalized on.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

To me it comes down to over the last couple of years Sezer has been shocking under pressure when the game is on the line. Williams isn't doing anything amazing, but he does remain composed in a tight match.

If Sezer can develop his decision making under pressure in reggies then he's the best half at the club.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by simo »

RedRaider wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:18 am I hope our new right winger can catch an attacking bomb. Sam put up 2 which were knocked on last week, one by BJ and one by Cotric. Also his 40/20 was wasted by Jacks forward pass to EW. A kick is only ever as good as it's chase. We had 3 clear opportunities created by Sam but not capitalized on.
Definitely credit deserved by sam for his 40/20. Was slick. But no way in hell am i using a bomb while in an attacking position as a positive. Attacking bombs are not in a good halfs playbook.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

BadnMean wrote: May 2, 2019, 10:21 pm
PigRickman wrote: May 2, 2019, 8:14 pm
BadnMean wrote: May 2, 2019, 1:38 pm Edit: his missed tackles in total or on average aren't bad really... Suggests teams are picking their moment against him or he's only bad when isolated?
He does well in general play to try and stay out of the frame, his mistackle count benefits greatly given he shoots the line 4-5 times a game and gets fresh air. Hard to make a tackle when you've come in on a back rower and let the fullback slide through untouched

But mostly it's isolation. That's the ball game for our opposition halves. Get numbers on Williams side, William's inside man with late ball playing, hold his outside man with the threat of the fullback, and hit the back rower flat one on one with Williams.
It's not points every time they do it, sometimes he just makes the tackle, sometimes the backrower inside him get there in time to help, Beej is actually pretty good at coming in to help himself (which of course leaves us 3-1, if an offload comes) and CNK is doing a great job of coming in and lending his support too
It's not a slam dunk, but it's fair to say every half decent play maker identifies this avenue as an area to expose us with
That's a pretty solid plan for most teams vs most halves to be fair.

I'm more concerned now that I've seen the try/break cause numbers from a 5 game sample. Mostly games we've won so perhaps we're coping or it's going to hit the fan we hit teams like Rooters and Bunnies soon who have both the organisation and firepower to really exploit that weakness.

Anyway, right now I hope Sam does pick his moments to get up into Kikau without Maloney or Cleary getting someone through the hole behind and proves a little point for himself. Team game though, if our pack can get on top and crowd their room and our kicking game is good the Panthers will get a few less opportunities to run that play.
It's what every team tries to do with every half. Because even the best defensive halves are, generally speaking, the worst defenders in a DL. But to your point, the pattern is emerging, and to the point of Beejay above, the surrounding defenders know it too and the lack of confidence they have in that spot causes issues for them. Teams are coming for us down that side, no two ways about it. This is going to be a big game for Sam Williams, the one thing those Penrith halves are really good at, because they are willing ball runners, is holding the inside man which is the key to the isolation
Williams needs to hold his position, and at least get a body in the way, even if he misses the tackle its fine, so long as he's acted as a speed bump enough for the help to come (and this is why mistackles are just such a waste of time, because Williams on Kikau 1 on 1, inside the 5, a mistackle from Williams that does enough to slow him down for help to arrive is a good play contextually)
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Nickman »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: May 3, 2019, 6:20 am To me it comes down to over the last couple of years Sezer has been shocking under pressure when the game is on the line. Williams isn't doing anything amazing, but he does remain composed in a tight match.

If Sezer can develop his decision making under pressure in reggies then he's the best half at the club.
To be fair, the whole team appears to have more composure this season, which is helping Williams immensely. I'm certain it would benefit Sezer the same amount.

As I've said before, it's a real shame Sezer got that injury early on with the team playing so well around him. He looked as good as Williams has this season in his game against the Titans, and Williams would've "looked" just as poor against the Storm IMO.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Woodgers »

PigRickman wrote: May 2, 2019, 8:27 pm
zim wrote: May 2, 2019, 8:06 pm
woppadingo wrote: May 2, 2019, 4:00 pm Im now back in the Sezer camp.
Better defender.
Just realised that maybe the reason Hodgson is not using the backline enough is because Williams isnt demanding the ball?
I've tried to figure this out too. I have no idea.
Part of me thinks Hodgo just does whatever he wants. Sam and Jack are told to make themselves available but Stick leaves it to Hodgo to call what is happening.
Or everyone's happy with the direction of the attack just not the outcomes.
Or as you said Williams just isn't getting on that ball enough.

If it's anything but the 3rd one we probably wouldn't see much of a change with Sezer.
I think its even simplier... regardless of who is in the halves, Hodgson knows they're not any good, and lack any level of creativity in the red zone, they're likely going to throw a bad ball, not engage the line, shuffle it out to the back rowers or centres early without any space or shape, or most likely turn the **** thing back inside for a hit up and set up for a 5th tackle kick...

i think Hodgson feels, and rightly so, that he's best off trying to create in the red zone than to give it to impotent halves who'll just **** it up anyways... so he takes it on, and takes it on, and takes it... and that sometimes results in him over playing his hand and playing poorly but there is no reason to trust any half at this club right now... which kind of feels justified.

I dont think any of this changes regardless of who's there, you hope George Williams comes and changes that. At our best in 16, despite being a star, Hodgson let Sezer and Austin cook, because they had put the runs on the board for him to trust them... since then it's been a wasteland
Pig I was dead against George Williams to begin with, not because we don't need better halves but I thought if we're going to play Wighton as a running pivot then surely we need a proper halfback and not another ball runner which is what George sounds like. The way Hodgson is playing, I figure what's the point in having a ballplayer or traditional half, he's not going to be able to perform that role so i'm resigned to the fact that we have a hooker who wants to do the lot and a running 5/8 either side of him that can run the ball. We'll be up the creek if Hodgson gets injured but this seems to be the way we're headed.

Sam Williams isn't brilliant or even very good but he has a better passing game than we're allowing him to use currently and I bring this up for the 3rd time, he's not seeing any ball to work to his strengths so that's why I have no qualms with bringing Sezer back in as the better defender if Ricky wants to go that way because the role they're giving Williams is negligible and a waste of time. I think our attack in the red zone would improve if Hodgson trusted Williams more, but I can't see that happening.

If we just need Sezer to do his defensive job and get as many touches as Sam I agree we might as well make the change sooner rather than later. But i'm not expecting much out of Sezer, the man who this week said in the media he's enjoying Mounties because he can play freely and the pressure is off him last Sunday runs the reserve grade team that scores 44 points and has the illustrious statistics of 0 line breaks, 0 line break assists, 0 try assists, 0 tries, 0 line engaged runs. Alarm bells are ringing Willy!
We continue to **** about with blokes that are part of some fraternity. It's infuriating.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Nickman »

What?? Didn't Sezer set up a couple of tries on the weekend?? I thought he did!
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Sezer's Palace »

Yeah if you watch the highlights from the weekend he had a fairly significant hand in a few of the tries, just didn't throw the last pass or kick for any. His kick for Satini on the last try was impressive and he had a long range intercept which we scored off the next play.

Also promising that he had 10 runs for 117 metres and 6 line engaged runs, seems as if he's on top of the injury now.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Nickman »

Yup, I really want him back in the team sooner rather than later, playing within our new structures and in top form.

Sezer playing halfback in top form is the final piece of our puzzle for this season.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Woodgers »

Happy to take your word for it, I didn't see the match so just looked up this for reference: https://www.nswrl.com.au/draw/nsw-cup/2 ... -mounties/

The bloke who did the stats must have had Nickman at Shark Park quantity of schooners :lol:. The stats i've linked to say 0 line engaged runs so he's missed 6 apparently! It was Brookvale so maybe he did the stats from an officials room with no windows.
We continue to **** about with blokes that are part of some fraternity. It's infuriating.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Nickman »

Woodgers wrote: May 3, 2019, 11:16 am Happy to take your word for it, I didn't see the match so just looked up this for reference: https://www.nswrl.com.au/draw/nsw-cup/2 ... -mounties/

The bloke who did the stats must have had Nickman at Shark Park quantity of schooners :lol:. The stats i've linked to say 0 line engaged runs so he's missed 6 apparently! It was Brookvale so maybe he did the stats from an officials room with no windows.
It was probably aftftftgjtkltlrekele.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Sezer's Palace »

Woodgers wrote: May 3, 2019, 11:16 am Happy to take your word for it, I didn't see the match so just looked up this for reference: https://www.nswrl.com.au/draw/nsw-cup/2 ... -mounties/

The bloke who did the stats must have had Nickman at Shark Park quantity of schooners :lol:. The stats i've linked to say 0 line engaged runs so he's missed 6 apparently! It was Brookvale so maybe he did the stats from an officials room with no windows.
Highlights are here if you're keen to check them out; https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/04 ... --round-7/. Crazy how much lower the standard of defence is in this comp given there are so many players with NRL experience playing.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by gerg »

PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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:lol: I was just making a point, but fair.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by gerg »

PigRickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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Image I was just making a point, but fair.
I know, but I'm just being a bit catty. I like the young fella and think he got a raw deal.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu »

Pretty sure that's not actually right anymore and they make a call on who made the biggest contribution. Same as the fox sports one.

https://www.nrl.com/operations/the-game ... finitions/

The weakness is that I think you can only have 1 per try and you can't assist yourself. There was a Mounties game where Simmonson set up about 5 but got 2 assists because he backed up to score 3 of them.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by BadnMean »

gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 1:21 pm
PigRickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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Image I was just making a point, but fair.
I know, but I'm just being a bit catty. I like the young fella and think he got a raw deal.

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From the highlights Ata is mostly playing first receiver and Sezer 2nd receiver in more of an old 5/8 role...
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

PigRickman wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:54 pm
gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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:lol: I was just making a point, but fair.
As far fetched as the idea that Aiden Sezer is going to rocket us from top 8 contenders to Premiership threats.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Nickman »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: May 3, 2019, 2:49 pm
PigRickman wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:54 pm
gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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:lol: I was just making a point, but fair.
As far fetched as the idea that Aiden Sezer is going to rocket us from top 8 contenders to Premiership threats.
Or take us to one game shy of a grand final... oh wait.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: May 3, 2019, 2:49 pm
PigRickman wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:54 pm
gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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:lol: I was just making a point, but fair.
As far fetched as the idea that Aiden Sezer is going to rocket us from top 8 contenders to Premiership threats.
Or as far fetched as the idea that Sam Williams is a FG standard halfback
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by TongueFTW »

Sezer drops off the bench, definitely not playing tomorrow. This is going to get ugly.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by nemesis »

The Rickman wrote: May 3, 2019, 10:15 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote: May 3, 2019, 6:20 am To me it comes down to over the last couple of years Sezer has been shocking under pressure when the game is on the line. Williams isn't doing anything amazing, but he does remain composed in a tight match.

If Sezer can develop his decision making under pressure in reggies then he's the best half at the club.
To be fair, the whole team appears to have more composure this season, which is helping Williams immensely. I'm certain it would benefit Sezer the same amount.

As I've said before, it's a real shame Sezer got that injury early on with the team playing so well around him. He looked as good as Williams has this season in his game against the Titans, and Williams would've "looked" just as poor against the Storm IMO.
100%, how other raiders fans can't see this is beyond me, been saying it since fans started laying the boot into sezer after round 3
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

The Rickman wrote: May 3, 2019, 2:51 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote: May 3, 2019, 2:49 pm
PigRickman wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:54 pm
gergreg wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:50 pm
PigRickman wrote:I hate NRL.com try assist stats
They way they count TA's is asinine... Ata Hingano could take the ball on his own try like, step half a dozen defenders, chip the fullback, regather, get rounded up by the cover defense but pass back inside to Aiden Sezer who passes to the unmarked winger and Aiden Sezer gets the TA.
Ata? No he couldn't.

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:lol: I was just making a point, but fair.
As far fetched as the idea that Aiden Sezer is going to rocket us from top 8 contenders to Premiership threats.
Or take us to one game shy of a grand final... oh wait.
A long time ago now unfortunately. I hope he is back and improved if Williams is exposed again this weekend but I think there is a really wide chasm between the top 3 and the rest this season.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Woodgers »

TongueFTW wrote: May 3, 2019, 3:41 pm Sezer drops off the bench, definitely not playing tomorrow. This is going to get ugly.
Yes I can imagine Ricky in the change room before the game.....
RS: "Jack, how's your arm?"
JW "It's feeling great boss"
RS: "Good take this note to the referee, we forfeit"
We continue to **** about with blokes that are part of some fraternity. It's infuriating.
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LP Raider
Ricky Stuart
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Joined: March 13, 2010, 8:44 am
Favourite Player: Master Bateman

Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by LP Raider »

Looks like Williams has dipped below Sezer in SuperCoach, time for Sezer to come in and stink it up and dip below 309k.
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RedRaider
Laurie Daley
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Joined: March 3, 2007, 7:02 pm

Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider »

simo wrote: May 3, 2019, 7:51 am
RedRaider wrote: May 3, 2019, 12:18 am I hope our new right winger can catch an attacking bomb. Sam put up 2 which were knocked on last week, one by BJ and one by Cotric. Also his 40/20 was wasted by Jacks forward pass to EW. A kick is only ever as good as it's chase. We had 3 clear opportunities created by Sam but not capitalized on.
Definitely credit deserved by sam for his 40/20. Was slick. But no way in hell am i using a bomb while in an attacking position as a positive. Attacking bombs are not in a good halfs playbook.
I have to disagree with you there Simo. Every player in the halves these days has a bomb in their arsenal. It's only been called a 'bomb' since the early 70's in the days of John 'bomber' Peard. Before that it still existed but was called an 'up and under'. Peard was very accurate in his placement of the bomb and he got great height on the ball to allow the chasers to get under it. Every club uses it, with varying degrees of success, in each game. As always though, a kick is only as good as it's chase.
TongueFTW
Dean Lance
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Joined: August 3, 2008, 10:40 am

Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by TongueFTW »

Woodgers wrote: May 3, 2019, 4:31 pm
TongueFTW wrote: May 3, 2019, 3:41 pm Sezer drops off the bench, definitely not playing tomorrow. This is going to get ugly.
Yes I can imagine Ricky in the change room before the game.....
RS: "Jack, how's your arm?"
JW "It's feeling great boss"
RS: "Good take this note to the referee, we forfeit"
Hahahaha - good reference.

"Williams, I love your hustle. That's why it was so hard to cut you".
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