Williams or Sezer?

[Botman]

Ed, Bulldogs plan was to attack down our right side where we had rookie center Seb Kris who also made 30 tackles. The Dogs had a possession advantage and that's where they decided to use it but it didn't work for them. The Tigers did not have the possession advantage. The Raiders had to make 394 tackles against the Dogs but only 340 against the Tigers who had to make 438 tackles against us (Source: NRL.com Stats). As the stats indicate the Raiders had a fair possession advantage over the Tigers. In the presser Sticky indicated the 31 tackles Sam made had an impact on his body. I'm sure it did. Winning form is good form and I would not look to make changes for the Sharks match.

Haha, Red... they didn’t attack the right side to go at a rookie centre who’s already shown he’s pretty stout defensively
They went to the right to attack Sam Williams
And they made a lot of hay out of running at him.

[The Nickman]

No way we keep the Tigers to zero if Williams is in the side.
No way we score 28 points if Williams is in the side.

This is the point, THIS is the point. Anyone who still thinks our halfback “should do more” in a 28 points to nil shutout is a complete idiot.

The team is only going to get better as Sezer gets comfortable in his role and Hodgson comes back. Exciting times ahead.


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[Coastalraider]

A solid performance from Sezer, better than Williams recent form. If he can produce that week in/week out that will be enough- I am hopeful he is able to, but he had the runs on the board that day he can’t operate at a high level consistantly. Hopefully putting himself in show for a contract will improve his consistency.

[Roger Kenworthy]

No way we keep the Tigers to zero if Williams is in the side.
No way we score 28 points if Williams is in the side.

Sezer was good tonight. Not great, like a marquee half-back, but a good 1st grade standard half. That's all we need him to be. Anyone who is still beating the drum for Williams after tonight is living in an alternative universe.

Why not? We kept the Eels to 0 with Williams in the team and they aren't relying on two 35 year olds to steer them around.

It's plain for anyone to see Sezer is the better defender but we didn't exactly have to deal with an elite outfit last night

[kiwi raider]

No way we keep the Tigers to zero if Williams is in the side.
No way we score 28 points if Williams is in the side.

This is the point, THIS is the point. Anyone who still thinks our halfback “should do more” in a 28 points to nil shutout is a complete idiot.

The team is only going to get better as Sezer gets comfortable in his role and Hodgson comes back. Exciting times ahead.


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He'll certainly have to do more in terms of his short kicking game if we are to beat/compete with the top teams, I think our only repeat set was forced by Croker despite sezer having plenty of opportunities to get us a repeat set or 2, he came up with a few 7 tackle sets and a kick directly in to the tigers legs.

[The Nickman]

I could be wrong but I believe the word 'Sezer' roughly translates to 'seven tackle set' in English.

I could be wrong but I believed the word ‘afgtnk’ roughly translates to ‘but my boi!’ In English.

Give it a rest for a night, Sezer played well.

[simo]

I could be wrong but I believe the word 'Sezer' roughly translates to 'seven tackle set' in English.

I could be wrong but I believed the word ‘afgtnk’ roughly translates to ‘but my boi!’ In English.

Give it a rest for a night, Sezer played well.

Never forget

[RedRaider]

Ed, Bulldogs plan was to attack down our right side where we had rookie center Seb Kris who also made 30 tackles. The Dogs had a possession advantage and that's where they decided to use it but it didn't work for them. The Tigers did not have the possession advantage. The Raiders had to make 394 tackles against the Dogs but only 340 against the Tigers who had to make 438 tackles against us (Source: NRL.com Stats). As the stats indicate the Raiders had a fair possession advantage over the Tigers. In the presser Sticky indicated the 31 tackles Sam made had an impact on his body. I'm sure it did. Winning form is good form and I would not look to make changes for the Sharks match.

Haha, Red... they didn’t attack the right side to go at a rookie centre who’s already shown he’s pretty stout defensively
They went to the right to attack Sam Williams
And they made a lot of hay out of running at him.

So you don't think a player in his first run on game of FG is not targeted by the opposition?? Every first timer is tested. I think the fact that a first time center makes 30 tackles and the half back to his left made 31 is a fair indication that the opposition was targeting that side. However there was no 'try cause' attributed because they both stood up.

This week we had a returning SOO player at right center and Rapa outside him. Both have lots of FG experience and the Tigers did not have the possession advantage enjoyed by the Dogs. This meant there was less work to do as indicated by the fact we had to make 56 fewer tackles in the match, the best part of 11 less defensive sets.

As I said in my original post, Sezer played well with ball in hand. As I said above I would not look to make changes for the Sharks match. Sezer deserves the No7 on the basis of his performance in the match against the Tigers.

[Timbo]

Still plenty of ‘he’s a good local boy’ folks around I see.

We kicked the **** out of a side, away from home, and Sezer was a big part of it. Move on Williams brigade.

[gangrenous]

Sezer did have a good game. Earned his spot for next week.

But I don’t think you’re locking this thread after one game where Sezer still struggled in areas like short kicking in a dominant game. Might want to cool your jets and see how he backs it up.

[edwahu]

Ed, Bulldogs plan was to attack down our right side where we had rookie center Seb Kris who also made 30 tackles. The Dogs had a possession advantage and that's where they decided to use it but it didn't work for them. The Tigers did not have the possession advantage. The Raiders had to make 394 tackles against the Dogs but only 340 against the Tigers who had to make 438 tackles against us (Source: NRL.com Stats). As the stats indicate the Raiders had a fair possession advantage over the Tigers. In the presser Sticky indicated the 31 tackles Sam made had an impact on his body. I'm sure it did. Winning form is good form and I would not look to make changes for the Sharks match.

Haha, Red... they didn’t attack the right side to go at a rookie centre who’s already shown he’s pretty stout defensively
They went to the right to attack Sam Williams
And they made a lot of hay out of running at him.

So you don't think a player in his first run on game of FG is not targeted by the opposition?? Every first timer is tested. I think the fact that a first time center makes 30 tackles and the half back to his left made 31 is a fair indication that the opposition was targeting that side. However there was no 'try cause' attributed because they both stood up.

This week we had a returning SOO player at right center and Rapa outside him. Both have lots of FG experience and the Tigers did not have the possession advantage enjoyed by the Dogs. This meant there was less work to do as indicated by the fact we had to make 56 fewer tackles in the match, the best part of 11 less defensive sets.

As I said in my original post, Sezer played well with ball in hand. As I said above I would not look to make changes for the Sharks match. Sezer deserves the No7 on the basis of his performance in the match against the Tigers.

But are you implying that these tackle counts somehow indicate defensive proficiency? Because a lot of your posts mention them as if they do.

I mean Sezer was good with the ball in hand, but he was absolutely outstanding in defense and is the best half defensively in the entire comp. So why go down the path of mentioning defensive workloads?

[Botman]

Ed, Bulldogs plan was to attack down our right side where we had rookie center Seb Kris who also made 30 tackles. The Dogs had a possession advantage and that's where they decided to use it but it didn't work for them. The Tigers did not have the possession advantage. The Raiders had to make 394 tackles against the Dogs but only 340 against the Tigers who had to make 438 tackles against us (Source: NRL.com Stats). As the stats indicate the Raiders had a fair possession advantage over the Tigers. In the presser Sticky indicated the 31 tackles Sam made had an impact on his body. I'm sure it did. Winning form is good form and I would not look to make changes for the Sharks match.

Haha, Red... they didn’t attack the right side to go at a rookie centre who’s already shown he’s pretty stout defensively
They went to the right to attack Sam Williams
And they made a lot of hay out of running at him.

So you don't think a player in his first run on game of FG is not targeted by the opposition?? Every first timer is tested. I think the fact that a first time center makes 30 tackles and the half back to his left made 31 is a fair indication that the opposition was targeting that side. However there was no 'try cause' attributed because they both stood up.

This week we had a returning SOO player at right center and Rapa outside him. Both have lots of FG experience and the Tigers did not have the possession advantage enjoyed by the Dogs. This meant there was less work to do as indicated by the fact we had to make 56 fewer tackles in the match, the best part of 11 less defensive sets.

As I said in my original post, Sezer played well with ball in hand. As I said above I would not look to make changes for the Sharks match. Sezer deserves the No7 on the basis of his performance in the match against the Tigers.

I think the bulldogs did what every team does when they get the chance - run a **** ton of plays at Sam williams

Dean Pay was our defensive coach for years, he of all people knew where his best shot was

[gangrenous]

But are you implying that these tackle counts somehow indicate defensive proficiency? Because a lot of your posts mention them as if they do.

I mean Sezer was good with the ball in hand, but he was absolutely outstanding in defense and is the best half defensively in the entire comp. So why go down the path of mentioning defensive workloads?

It is much easier to perform well in defence (less opportunities to screw up) and in attack (more energy, less bumps bruises) when your defensive load is lighter. RR is giving the performance context.

[edwahu]

But are you implying that these tackle counts somehow indicate defensive proficiency? Because a lot of your posts mention them as if they do.

I mean Sezer was good with the ball in hand, but he was absolutely outstanding in defense and is the best half defensively in the entire comp. So why go down the path of mentioning defensive workloads?

It is much easier to perform well in defence (less opportunities to screw up) and in attack (more energy, less bumps bruises) when your defensive load is lighter. RR is giving the performance context.

That's not what I see implied from his posts on this topic all year. He can answer though.

[Timbo]

The argument for Williams at this point is on par with ‘Kevin Pietersen is statistically weak against left arm spin, so let’s pick Xavier Doherty for the Ashes’.

If you don’t get that reference, let me assure you: it’s a thin argument.

[gangrenous]

I think the bulldogs did what every team does when they get the chance - run a **** ton of plays at Sam williams

Dean Pay was our defensive coach for years, he of all people knew where his best shot was

Despite the Bulldogs throwing absolutely everything they had at him, they scored 10 points and Williams had no try causes. I’m not saying he had a brilliant defensive game. But it’s far from a stamp his card never to play again game.

I think it’s probably a bit of both. Defensively weak half and new centre. Why not attack both!

[gangrenous]

But are you implying that these tackle counts somehow indicate defensive proficiency? Because a lot of your posts mention them as if they do.

I mean Sezer was good with the ball in hand, but he was absolutely outstanding in defense and is the best half defensively in the entire comp. So why go down the path of mentioning defensive workloads?

It is much easier to perform well in defence (less opportunities to screw up) and in attack (more energy, less bumps bruises) when your defensive load is lighter. RR is giving the performance context.

That's not what I see implied from his posts on this topic all year. He can answer though.

Can’t say I’ve noticed it. Certainly doesn’t appear to be anything implying that in the post you quoted. But we’ll see what RR says.

[The Nickman]

The argument for Williams at this point is on par with ‘Kevin Pietersen is statistically weak against left arm spin, so let’s pick Xavier Doherty for the Ashes’.

If you don’t get that reference, let me assure you: it’s a thin argument.

Hahaha indeed

“Steady on guys, Sezer might still have another bad game someday!”


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[yurithe1]

Sezer did have a good game. Earned his spot for next week.

But I don’t think you’re locking this thread after one game where Sezer still struggled in areas like short kicking in a dominant game. Might want to cool your jets and see how he backs it up.

That's been Sezer's problem for a while. He puts in a good game and then a bunch of average ones afterwards.

I'd be re-signing Williams, regardless of whether we bring George Williams out here, and moving on Hingano to free up whatever miniscule amount he's on in the salary cap.

I think Ricky would be inclined to do that based on how glowingly he spoke about Williams and the way he accepted being demoted. Pure class and a real team man according to Ricky.

My favourite comment though, was Ricky recounting what Williams said: "I've been dropped for missing tackles before, but this is the first time I've been dropped for making too many". (He'd made 32 the previous week and Ricky decided he needed a bigger body due to the short turn around).

[Pete Cash]

I thought Sezer did well. It was an overall attacking performance (despite scoring 28 points) I could nitpick but I don't think he was the issue. His kicking game was fairly rank if I am being objective.

That said I never thought we were losing that game from the moment we scored the second try. Our defense was just too good for the tigers last night and Sezer being in the defensive line is a much safer bet than Williams.

[BJ]

Good pass from Sezer to Bateman in the lead up to Rapana getting pushed into touch. Sezer was a 7/10 for mine.

But good performances from almost the whole team.

[afgtnk]

I could be wrong but I believe the word 'Sezer' roughly translates to 'seven tackle set' in English.

I could be wrong but I believed the word ‘afgtnk’ roughly translates to ‘but my boi!’ In English.

Give it a rest for a night, Sezer played well.

Exactly Pig. All spines need time to gel, to get used to each other's games. Our spine is no different.

There's no better spine at our club than our current one, and all four are potential superstars.

"All four are potential superstars"

And they are

You really don't wanna be playing this game, son.

[RedRaider]

But are you implying that these tackle counts somehow indicate defensive proficiency? Because a lot of your posts mention them as if they do.

I mean Sezer was good with the ball in hand, but he was absolutely outstanding in defense and is the best half defensively in the entire comp. So why go down the path of mentioning defensive workloads?

It is much easier to perform well in defence (less opportunities to screw up) and in attack (more energy, less bumps bruises) when your defensive load is lighter. RR is giving the performance context.

That's not what I see implied from his posts on this topic all year. He can answer though.

Ed, to stick with the thread title Williams or Sezer, I talk about facts. In 2019 Sam Williams has played 10 matches, made 176 tackles for an average of 17.6 per match. He has missed 22 tackles for and average of 2.2 per match. Aiden Sezer has played 4 matches, made 59 tackles for an average of 14.75 tackles per match and missed 9 tackles for an average of 2.25 per match. (Source: Zero Tackle Player Stats). These are not subjective stats they simply state what the performance has been for each player in the matches they have played. There is not much between them and if anything they slightly favour Sam. (Awaits derision for stating facts which don't match some opinions).

I am not a fan of subjective stats such as 'try causes' because we never know why these 'anonymous statisticians' decide the way they do. People view things differently. Eg in the SOO match the first try to Qld was called the fault of Nic Cotric by a very high profile former SOO NSW coach (Let's call him Gus). Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I certainly didn't see it that way. I'd be interested to know if that was ruled as a 'try cause' to Nic by the 'anonymous statisticians'.

Now I am a fan of Sam's but not to the point of running down another Raider player in Aiden for the sake of it. We all look for different things in games and then see if the stats match the 'eye test'.

I am on record here that I agreed with NR that Sam needs to run more as a half back. We saw last night against the Tigers what a running half back can achieve. Aiden had an outstanding match with the ball. I am not death riding him when I say that I reckon he should be picked for the Sharks match due to his performance against the Tigers. Hopefully this has cleared up anything you think I have 'implied'.

[edwahu]

Yes, that is clear. You believe Williams has objectively outperformed Sezer defensively this year.

Now who do you subjectively think is the better defender and by what margin?

[Wiki Special]

No way we keep the Tigers to zero if Williams is in the side.

Keeping the Tigers to nil had little to do with who our halfback was and everything to do with our attitude as a team. Whitehead and Bateman absolutely control their inside and outside men when defending on each edge. If any one factor is going to get the most credit for a nil scoreline it should be this.

[The Nickman]

I could be wrong but I believe the word 'Sezer' roughly translates to 'seven tackle set' in English.

I could be wrong but I believed the word ‘afgtnk’ roughly translates to ‘but my boi!’ In English.

Give it a rest for a night, Sezer played well.

Exactly Pig. All spines need time to gel, to get used to each other's games. Our spine is no different.

There's no better spine at our club than our current one, and all four are potential superstars.

"All four are potential superstars"

And they are

You really don't wanna be playing this game, son.

This is a fantastic quote with no context. No idea what you’re even quoting or from when.

Well done, absolutely outplayed yourself here, afgfjkclrkfmckf. HUGE swing and a miss

[The Nickman]

Also, you completely **** up your quoting, which makes my quoting look stupid. FFSSIOC


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[afgtnk]

I think the main problem here is that anyone in the Williams 'camp' clearly knows he's not a regular starting half, and are happy to see him play until we get a quality halfback on board. We can't win a premiership with him as first choice.

The people in the Sezer camp on the other hand seem to hold absurd this underlying belief that he just hasn't come good yet and is actually good enough to lead us to a premiership. Almost as if the last three years of performances and his clear lack of ability mean nothing when he comes back to make 9 tackles and take an intercept try.

It doesn't matter what Sezer does, please understand - he is not good enough. He is being paid twice what our back up is yet the very fact we continue to have these debates about the two tells you all you need to know about his lack of quality as a front liner.

We cannot get a quality halfback to this club soon enough. You don't get anywhere with Aidan Sezer as your halfback. The day he leaves will be **** momentus, if only to stop the ludicrous arguments on behalf of those who seem to still think he's a budding superstar.

[amiafish]

In my opinion, there are too many people here talking about one-off performances (or even sequences of performances) and missing the larger point. Namely, that Sam is simply nowhere near the class of Sezer.

Sam is slower.
Sam is smaller.
Sam is weaker.
Sam is a worse passer of the ball.
Sam is a worse runner of the ball.
And to top it all off, even if all other things were equal (which they're not), Sam is a much worse defender.

Like Timbo says with his analogy to cricket, you don't pick a right-arm medium pacer because he took a five-for and leave out the left armer who can bowl 150km/h with movement just because he didn't take any wickets last game.

You pick for inherent ability. Because, over time, it plays out.

P.S. Not saying Sezer is Mitchell Starc material, just making the general point.

[afgtnk]

What?

That implies that we have a gun halfback waiting in the wing. Not the equally trundling medium pacer who had no form, which is exactly what Sezer should be compared to.

[The Nickman]

I think the main problem here is that anyone in the Williams 'camp' clearly knows he's not a regular starting half, and are happy to see him play until we get a quality halfback on board. We can't win a premiership with him as first choice.

The people in the Sezer camp on the other hand seem to hold absurd this underlying belief that he just hasn't come good yet and is actually good enough to lead us to a premiership. Almost as if the last three years of performances and his clear lack of ability mean nothing when he comes back to make 9 tackles and take an intercept try.

It doesn't matter what Sezer does, please understand - he is not good enough. He is being paid twice what our back up is yet the very fact we continue to have these debates about the two tells you all you need to know about his lack of quality as a front liner.

We cannot get a quality halfback to this club soon enough. You don't get anywhere with Aidan Sezer as your halfback. The day he leaves will be **** momentus, if only to stop the ludicrous arguments on behalf of those who seem to still think he's a budding superstar.

Why do people have to have a “camp”? Why can’t you change your opinion based on the facts in front of you? I was happy for Williams to stay in the team after the first few wins he had because I thought he’d earned his spot. But it was obvious to me that he still has the same deficiencies in his game he’s always had, and Sezer at his best complements the team perfectly, as we saw last night (although he still has plenty of improvement to come IMO)

This whole idea that once you’ve made up your mind on a player you have to stick with it until the end of time is absolutely rubbish

[The Nickman]

And just to prove my point affgfhfjvkfktkt, here you go.

I'd stick with Williams for now. Sezer to come back in Mounties and prove he's got the hunger to force his way back into the team.

Being wedded to the same opinion until the end of time is **** stupid, AFAIC.

[RedRaider]

Yes, that is clear. You believe Williams has objectively outperformed Sezer defensively this year.

Now who do you subjectively think is the better defender and by what margin?

Ed, I see on here often Sam Williams being bagged so I like to go to the objective facts to determine what is opinion and what is really justified. I have provided the facts in my prior post so I'll stick with that.

I've read your post where you say Aiden Sezer is the best defensive half in the comp. I take it that is based on the subjective stats which rely on opinion. At the last Federal Election I think we saw the unreliability of variable opinion based stats - just like Gus and his opinion about Nic Cotric in the last SOO match.

It doesn't bother me that others have different opinions to me. I just like to be objective and use stats which are a verifiable measure.

[afgtnk]

I think the main problem here is that anyone in the Williams 'camp' clearly knows he's not a regular starting half, and are happy to see him play until we get a quality halfback on board. We can't win a premiership with him as first choice.

The people in the Sezer camp on the other hand seem to hold absurd this underlying belief that he just hasn't come good yet and is actually good enough to lead us to a premiership. Almost as if the last three years of performances and his clear lack of ability mean nothing when he comes back to make 9 tackles and take an intercept try.

It doesn't matter what Sezer does, please understand - he is not good enough. He is being paid twice what our back up is yet the very fact we continue to have these debates about the two tells you all you need to know about his lack of quality as a front liner.

We cannot get a quality halfback to this club soon enough. You don't get anywhere with Aidan Sezer as your halfback. The day he leaves will be **** momentus, if only to stop the ludicrous arguments on behalf of those who seem to still think he's a budding superstar.

Why do people have to have a “camp”? Why can’t you change your opinion based on the facts in front of you? I was happy for Williams to stay in the team after the first few wins he had because I thought he’d earned his spot. But it was obvious to me that he still has the same deficiencies in his game he’s always had, and Sezer at his best complements the team perfectly, as we saw last night (although he still has plenty of improvement to come IMO)

This whole idea that once you’ve made up your mind on a player you have to stick with it until the end of time is absolutely rubbish

My opinions don't change like a piss in the wind mate, and my position doesn't change in a total sense unless I see something substantial occur. Change opinions based on the facts - has the last 3 years of crap from Sezer STILL not convinced you?. Or to trundle out an old classic, do you still think he needs to time to 'gel'.

No halfback we have is good enough. We desperately need a good one to realise our potential as a team.

Williams is a good back up, he's cheap, he's professional, we can reliably play him when we need to.

Sezer is not a starting player and his output v cost ratio is far lower than Williams'. If he wants to earn around Williams' salary and be a backup, then it's a different discussion.

I would rather Williams get the game time because to me he's the one should stay (as a back up) and Sezer's the one who clearly needs replacement.

If a 5-6/10 performance from a guy that is widely considered as a bottom rung half is proof as fact that he's right for the job, you probably need to consider your understanding of the game.

[gangrenous]

I actually think this team can win a grand final with either Williams or Sezer.

More likely to do so with a better halfback, but I think saying we’ll never win a premiership because one of these guys plays half forgets that they have both performed well in teams making legitimate tilts at the big prize before.