Williams or Sezer?

[Beejay]

Thanks for the stats Beejay. Do you have the Penalties conceded stats? Also can you put up Jacks 'try causes and line break causes?

So far the team is defending Jacks errors. He has a long kicking game if sometimes wayward.

Jack tops penalties conceded with 7. Closely followed by Hodgson and Horsburgh.

Line break causes for Jack and Sam is 3, with Sam only playing 4 games.

Try causes for Jack is 4 and Sam 2.

John Bateman is a worry on this stat.

This is the link for complete stats
https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-p ... =tryCauses

Thanks Beejay, much appreciated. Some rave about Jack's defence and bag out Sam. I simply don't think they are looking at 2019. While Jack makes a lot of running meters his penalties conceded at 7 after 6 rounds and errors 15 after 6 rounds means his net meters made will be far lower. I know he is still adjusting to the role, but errors and penalties conceded are areas he needs to work on. We will soon be up against the Chooks and Bunnies. They will be much harder to defend against if regular penalties and errors are made. Before last weekends round the Chooks had scored 25 tries and the Bunnies 20 tries (Source Big League magazine.)
Giving those sides 'easy possession' is a recipe for match day struggle street imo.

People bag out Sams defence for good reason. Those stats are bad for him. He requires help.
Jacks stats are about the same, except Jack is clearly a stronger defender. He tops our 1on1 tackles, he attacks other teams with some punishing hits. All things Sam would only dream about.
Jacks got plenty to improve, but surely it’s clear to all how high his ceiling is.

[RedRaider]

How many No.7's lead the one on one defensive stats? Any? How many Clubs require that of their No.7? I, and most Clubs statisticians, place a lot of importance on missed tackles. It is part of the reason sides make ground when players miss tackles. I think we are agreed that there are areas for both team and individual improvement in the 2019 Raiders.

[kiwi raider]

I’d be sticking with Williams for as long as he’s not costing us games, I think he’s a better distributor than Sezer so he allows our edges(our biggest threats) to get better quality front foot ball, the likes of BJ, Bateman/Tapine, Rapana will have better opportunities on average playing outside Williams than they will Sezer imo, probably due to Williams being a natural halfback where as Sezer Has always really been a 5/8(he even admitted as much in a pre season interview this year)

[Botman]

Id also stick with a winning team and Williams so long as he defends his position but boy I'd love to see this quality ball our edges are getting. Im not seeing any of it.

And i'd like to see those Sezer comments regarding 5/8th, as i'd bet significant money they were referencing his jersey number more than his role. He was a halfback at the titans once Prince left. There really isnt much to debate about that. The idea that a guy whose running game has never ever been a major factor, and who handled the ball 3-4 times a set as a distributor and first choice kicker is some kind of 5/8th is just silly. He 6, he played 7.

We were right to go after him as a 7 and it just hasnt panned out. Not sure why he's regressed so significantly, but thats what we have right now.

[BJ]

Things to stay as they are whilst we are winning.

The only reason to change would be Williams performing poorly in a few NRL games and Sezer performing very well at Mounties.

[greeneyed]

I agree fully. You reward players who are performing in a winning team. Aidan Sezer has to knock the door down to take the No. 7 back from Sam Williams - who is doing the job in firsts.

[kiwi raider]

Id also stick with a winning team and Williams so long as he defends his position but boy I'd love to see this quality ball our edges are getting. Im not seeing any of it.

And i'd like to see those Sezer comments regarding 5/8th, as i'd bet significant money they were referencing his jersey number more than his role. He was a halfback at the titans once Prince left. There really isnt much to debate about that. The idea that a guy whose running game has never ever been a major factor, and who handled the ball 3-4 times a set as a distributor and first choice kicker is some kind of 5/8th is just silly. He 6, he played 7.

We were right to go after him as a 7 and it just hasnt panned out. Not sure why he's regressed so significantly, but thats what we have right now.

I’m not suggesting he’s been giving our edges great ball the last few weeks, he hasn’t but it’s early in the season and we are clunky attacking wise, like most teams for the first 5/6 weeks, but generally speaking compared to Sezer over there last few years I reckon he’s better at setting up our sweep plays etc. he seems more natural than Sezer at going to the line and then passing out the back after commiting a defender, Sezer just runs the play without creating any doubt from the defensive line imo. Still both aren’t viable long term options and there’s very little between them overall.

This is the pre season interview
https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/02/05/hal ... e-raiders/

.Complicating matters is that Sezer himself is unsure where his best spot is – at No.7 or No.6.

"I'm not too sure, you know. All my younger grades, and my first four years in first grade, were at five-eighth," he said.

[Botman]

That's a weird quote. Is there more context around it? Because it's simply not accurate to the role he played
No idea what he did at junior levels, and he certainly played in the 6 jersey and played a secondary role next to Scott Prince, but he was the halfback once Prince left.

He played like a halfback, was recruited as a halfback and was talked about openly in the media as a halfback
He was a halfback and a significantly better one than he has been here.

[Beejay]

How many No.7's lead the one on one defensive stats? Any? How many Clubs require that of their No.7? I, and most Clubs statisticians, place a lot of importance on missed tackles. It is part of the reason sides make ground when players miss tackles. I think we are agreed that there are areas for both team and individual improvement in the 2019 Raiders.

Not many, if any. But Jack does, that’s why I was confused as it seemed you were implying there’s not much difference between them with your comment.
Missed tackle stats are one of the most misleading stats IMO. They’re only a small part of the story. That’s why I look at the linebreak causes and try causes, and also the ineffective tackles.

But yeah, I agree there’s much to improve, especially in the spine. That’s part of the reason I did the original post. I really see our spine (minus Hodgson) as our Achilles heel to compete at the end.

[kiwi raider]

That's a weird quote. Is there more context around it? Because it's simply not accurate to the role he played
No idea what he did at junior levels, and he certainly played in the 6 jersey and played a secondary role next to Scott Prince, but he was the halfback once Prince left.

He played like a halfback, was recruited as a halfback and was talked about openly in the media as a halfback
He was a halfback and a significantly better one than he has been here.

he was certainly the dominant kicker/half at the titans post prince but I don’t think that makes him a true “halfback”. He was paired with rookies so he was always going to be the senior player in the halves for a while but I’m not sure he’s ever really been a true organising “halfback” a lot of the highlights I remember of him at the titans was him actually playing quite wide out particularly on the left hand side.
I can’t really recall him being the guy that plays close to the ruck barking orders and directing his team around the park, yea sure he’s always been the dominant kicker but that doesn’t make him the general imo just the guy with the best boot in the team, a bit like Campese was, great boot on him and our dominant kicker but he was always a 5/8, he was a very poor halfback imo even pre injury

[Botman]

I cant speak to what you saw, but everything i saw from him at the Titans was a classic halfback. He was very vocal with his organisation and direction of that football team.
He was a vocal half who dominating kicking, dominated touches, played both sides of the ruck and played almost exclusively as a first receiver with dynamic ball runners like Albert Kelly outside him and Zillman playing off him (when healthy) as a fullback.

To me, it was basically your Oxford Dictionary definition of a halfback. And a pretty young and talent one worth pursuing. Certainly that player has not ever shown up here in Canberra aside from the rare game.

Agree to disagree i guess.

[afgtnk]

Hmmm.

May explain why the Titans didn't make a single final series the whole time he was there.

[Roger Kenworthy]

I think Williams has made peace with his limitations and now just works to a low risk/low error role.

Sezer is still wrestling with what he can do at NRL level and has a tendency to overplay what's in front of him.

[Botman]

I would say a management situation that almost sent them broke off the park before they got a chance to kick off, and spending a **** ton of cap space on "building" a squad around a broken Scott Prince, William Zillman coming off 3 reco's in 2 years and guys like Kris Kahler, Anthony Laffranchi, Luke Bailey, the **** Minichello, and a 57 year old Mat Rogers probably answers that.

Or you can go to Rugby League Project and check out their squads and it should answer the questions for you
http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/teams ... asons.html

But do so at your own risk. It's a ugly scene.
I dont think 20 year old halfback had much to do the cataclysmic failure of expansion on the GC, headed by former Wunderboy Michael Searle

[afgtnk]

We'll then also have to agree to disagree, because I pretty much saw the same guy at the Titans that we've seen here. If he was as good as you allege, as a dominating halfback, he'd surely be capable of dragging them to AT LEAST one finals series.

I can see why opposition supporters can get taken in by him though. He's got a fantastic technique when he kicks and passes (long). He looks the part of a quality halfback. It's when you start watching him more closely you realise that the guy has no clue how to play outside of what he's trained for to within an inch of his life. I'm not just talking ball playing here. He has a massive weakness in being unable to read many different game situations and play accordingly.

Let's give a ball playing example: you cannot tell me that at the Titans he was fast in his mind and slow with his hands, which is what a good halfback should be, instead of being slow in his mind and quick with this hands, which is what he actually is. That to me is the telltale sign that the guy shouldn't play 7. That is inate, he has been built with it and he will never change it. If someone didn't watch him closely enough, or often enough, they probably wouldn't pick it up.

Granted I was not a keen observer of the Titans, so it would have to be left to the supporters of his former club (all 4 of them) to have a true understanding of how he really played. I cannot imagine that it was much above what he's shown here though.

[Botman]

Sezer was dominant on a scale of a very young inexperienced halfback, i.e he was worth chasing when this team lacked a halfback and had no real way to find out since our own superstar drank he way out.

He wasnt an elite player, but had flashed the potential to get there one day. But he was just a guy who was playing at a pretty high level in a bad team and doing his best at a young age. I mean look at Ponga, and he's significantly more dominant than Sezer or 99.9% of professionally RL players ever was or will be. Out and out star and he aint good enough to drag them to wins consistently.

One man isnt enough, and that's at Ponga's level. So certainly Sezer wont be enough to overcome that roster construction. i mean look at that site, browse it as you will and tell me that team isn't a criminal attempt at expansion? haha.

[afgtnk]

Having a look through his final year at the Titans in 2015, which was probably considered the best he had, he played alongside the likes of:

Greg Bird
Luke Douglas
Kane Elgey
Josh Hoffman
Ryan James
Nate Myles
James Roberts
Dave Taylor
Agnatius Paasi
David Mead

Granted that isn't a lineup capable of winning a premiership, but IMO should've been much better than 14th IF they did infact possess a quality halfback. I mean, in no way does that compare to some of the no name, reserve grade **** the Knights have put out over the last few years.

[Botman]

Yeah... agree to disagree... haha
that's **** GHASTLY when you consider Bird was beyond his best, Bailey was 3 years past his best, Big Dave was... a sizable chap and Roberts was battling some, considerable... off field habits, haha.

[Botman]

Unrelated, where the **** is Paasi now?
He had that like 4-5 week period of unfathomable football and then... it was gone and i've got no idea where he is now.

Edit: and i just want to reiterate, Sezer has disappointed greatly in his time here, and has no produced to an acceptable level, and whilst im sure at SOME point this year he'll be back because Williams is who he is, as much as Sezer is, whilst the team is winning and Sam is defending at an level that isnt costing us games, he should stay.

[RTW]

Paasi was at the warriors last season but hasn’t been sighted this year. I assume he must be injured?


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[kiwi raider]

Unrelated, where the **** is Paasi now?
He had that like 4-5 week period of unfathomable football and then... it was gone and i've got no idea where he is now.

Edit: and i just want to reiterate, Sezer has disappointed greatly in his time here, and has no produced to an acceptable level, and whilst im sure at SOME point this year he'll be back because Williams is who he is, as much as Sezer is, whilst the team is winning and Sam is defending at an level that isnt costing us games, he should stay.

Paasi has hardly missed a game since joining the Warriors at the start of 2018, he was consistently the best warriors forward last year(better than Tohu harris imo) he had a few injuries in his last year at the titans but he's been really good whenever he's had an injury free run.

[Beejay]

I think it’s safe to say now that we overrated Sezer before he came here.
Which is easy to do, how many ppl are watching 80 mins of Titans games closely for 20+ rounds..
No one watched him as closely at the Titans as they have while he’s here.
I think he’s always been this.

[simo]

Paasi has played every game this year

[kiwi raider]

I think it’s safe to say now that we overrated Sezer before he came here.
Which is easy to do, how many ppl are watching 80 mins of Titans games closely for 20+ rounds..
No one watched him as closely at the Titans as they have while he’s here.
I think he’s always been this.

I think that's a very fair point when talking about non raiders players, people tend to remember there good games(1/2 a year) not what they do the other 80% of the time, I think its entirely possible people are remembering Sezers 2/3 good games a year and wondering why he's never consistently played like that at the raiders when in actual fact he's probably identical, if you only judged Sezer on his couple of standout games at the raiders you'd think he was a stud.

Like PigRickman said there squads were very ordinary, I can't imagine too many non titans fans were setting there watches to sit down and watch those spuds go round each week

[Botman]

Unrelated, where the **** is Paasi now?
He had that like 4-5 week period of unfathomable football and then... it was gone and i've got no idea where he is now.

Edit: and i just want to reiterate, Sezer has disappointed greatly in his time here, and has no produced to an acceptable level, and whilst im sure at SOME point this year he'll be back because Williams is who he is, as much as Sezer is, whilst the team is winning and Sam is defending at an level that isnt costing us games, he should stay.

Paasi has hardly missed a game since joining the Warriors at the start of 2018, he was consistently the best warriors forward last year(better than Tohu harris imo) he had a few injuries in his last year at the titans but he's been really good whenever he's had an injury free run.

I genuinely had no idea he was there. Haha
The warriors seem to get a lot time slots where it’s hard for me to watch so I haven’t seen them much

[Hazza]

I'm in the camp that says while we're winning, no need to shake things up.

I do wonder though if the halfback has become the most redundant position in our 13. We all know that plenty of times this season the coach has sent us out with the instructions to play down the middle and try tire out other packs. The hooker runs the show. The halfback can basically just direct the traffic when we have the ball with that game plan and this isn't a measurable that people judge performance on because without being on the park how would you know how influential he is? Our back 5 are our running players to either try ruck it out or create something out of nothing in the red zone where we look clunky and hellbent on dragging the opposition defence into the middle of the field to open up some room for these outside backs when/IF we finally spread it on the last, and the ball must bypass the 7 as fast as possible under this strategy. Then you have our 5/8 who is so desperate to prove himself in the halves that he is running around like a headless chicken trying to get involved in everything including the kicking that he seems to be demanding the ball and getting it more than the 7 on reputation as much as anything.

It's like we're the only side in NRL history that is least phased by what the 7 does with the footy as long as they're not leaking points down our end they're doing their defensive job in this structure and that's the pass mark.

Very good point. Certainly not a new thing for us though. In '16 we scored 688 points and the halves wouldn't have had more than 10 try assists between them for the season. Papalii, Hodgo,Whitehead and Leipana were creating more. Never seen a side rely as little on the halfback as we do.

[Beejay]

‘George Williams watch’
Wigan v Castleford

Just rucking it out from their line first 15m. Then get a chance and he has 3 touches in set in attacking 20, first time there. First receiver for shift. 2nd reciever shortball to 2ndR. Grubber, hardeaker fumbles over line, chance bombed. Interesting grubber changed direction of attack, plenty of defenders but found a way.
Next set ends on 20, chips behind winger but he gets out 1m from line. Good kick.
4 sets including the above in good field position he touches ball at least 3 times a set either first or second receiver.
Ends with him putting in grubber that hits legs and recovered by defence 10 out. Poor end.
No more good ball rest of half. Castleford really on top. George doesn’t take any long kicks this half. His defence is good, his side of field is organised in defence.
Castleford had 60% possession that half.
No tries, 2 penalty goals to castleford.

Wet game and a bit dour.
Williams is not taking any long kicks, but as soon as they hit halfway he takes what looks like every one. Mid field bomb by Williams that he chases and makes the tackle on fullback himself. Other than that he’s just playing short to, or turning his second rower inside. Wigan dummy half scored from a nothing scoot, but other than that they haven’t been in attacking 20. Any other chance they’ve dropped it.
First long kick in 67th min. Trapped in their 30 he kicks from the 20, finds open grass and has winger and centre chasing really well to completely change the momentum. Not needed, as they receive a penalty for a shoulder charge on Williams just as he kicks it. Good play.
From that attacking set he touches it 3 times. And takes control of the set, but on 5th tackle dummy half goes to crash ball and they are tackled.
73rd min chases a midfield bomb, castleford let it bounce and caught by Wigan winger who makes a break with Williams backing up on the inside, just needs to draw and pass but throws it way forward and in front of Williams, massively butchered try, Williams would have scored the match winner, but stays at 6-4 Wigan.

So just to highlight what this game is like; castleford drop it on halfway, scrum, Williams is first reciever for first two tackles organising this attacking set, then a forward takes a hit up and gets stripped 1-on-1.

Don’t listen to anyone telling you George Williams has issues in defence. He doesn’t. Strong defender, stays in the system and covers when required.

Game ends Wigan 6-4

[nemesis]

So long as our two current halves are fit, Sezer shouldn't be back in the starting side. It's evident that both the team and Jack play better with Sam there.

Has Sam been great? No. He's not going to be, and he's paid accordingly. However, I'd rather give the guy who should be our backup half for the next few seasons more quality experience, as opposed to the guy who cannot think like a halfback yet is on double the pay, and needs to cut at the absolute earliest opportunity. Especially since he's actually better than him, by however small or large a distance.

Is it but? i mean a lot of people have short memories and forget round 1 where jack and sezer looked very good and we won 21-0, sezer and jack both controlled that game very well.

round 2 and we had our first loss, i think that people are using sezer as the scapegoat for that game, we played a really good team that was fresh and we had a 5 day turn around, melb really shut us down and were playing up and in defence which shut down any thing going to our backline and our forwards were good but did not exactly dominate like all the other games so our halves were also taken out of the game. I could name half our players that had a bad or quiet game that game and we only lost by 12 winning the 2nd half.

Sezer is really copping it by raiders fans and i agree sam deserves to stay in but i'm not as easily convinced he's better than sezer and makes wighton better

[Mullins_y2k]

I think Williams hasn't put a foot wrong .. but more than anything he's benefiting from our strong start as a team. I'm pretty sure we win all thoes games with Sezer there too... Infact I'd like to see Sezer get a call up the second we lose 2 straight as it won't negativity effect our structures at all imo....

[AUSTEZER]

Get Aidan back please

[Botman]

I wouldn’t make a change either
The teams been going well and they dug deep
I’d given them a chance to redeem themselves, but I don’t think Stuart will, he just saw his halfback out played by Lachy Croker.

As I’ve said, we’ll be flip flopping the #7 all year long. Different flavours of the same drink

[Northern Raider]

Sam had 27 possessions. Passed it 14 times. Kicked it 12. Ran once for 6m. I just think you need more from your halfback, particularly in these close games. Whether Sezer can offer more I can't really say. I doubt he will offer less.

[Roger Kenworthy]

Yup no good options but Williams was poor today, so no arguments if Sezer gets a run. I do think we need to find a clear first choice by rounds 11 or 12 though.

[edwahu]

Sezer really isn't much better. Defensively he is at least, but I don't see a different result with him today.

How is Hingano going?

[Botman]

Yup no good options but Williams was poor today, so no arguments if Sezer gets a run. I do think we need to find a clear first choice by rounds 11 or 12 though.

Yeah I agree with that last bit
I think the coach is going to have to pick one, understanding neither is good and just go with it
We’re not at any risk of winning a comp this year so you just want to work the combinations

My preference would be whoever’s game most closely mirrors George’s
I don’t think we have one given what I’ve read here of him, but whoever the coach thinks is closer would get my nod