2019 Rd 3 V Knights: Game Day

[Raiders_Pat]

I just want to add to my last post, i've brought up this point before and I sincerely don't want people to view it as a racist post, it's just a general observation on sport.

One of my best mates coaches first grade Rugby Union at the best club in Canberra. Talking to him he deals with a lot of islanders. He says that one of his biggest challenges is trying to get islanders to play to any structure, they'll follow the plan for 10 minutes and then just go back to playing park footy because that's why they're there, to play footy. It's their instinct.

I'm a big soccer fan (sorry fellas - English Dad). You look at a nation like Germany and their physical attributes aren't anything special, but as a general rule they're always a good shot at every world cup. Why? They take 22 players to every tournament that follow the plan to the absolute letter and know their role in every scenario. They could come up against Nigeria or Cameroon who put 11 players out on the park who are faster, have more endurance and are physically stronger. Germany shouldn't win the match but they normally do because they don't stray from the structures and follow the instructions. I can't see an African team winning a world cup in my lifetime because the players as a generalisation play the game but don't stick to the plan and base the 90 minutes around the highest percentage football to win the game.

As a professional coach in any sport, and in the NRL as well, the coach needs to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the players he has. He's not teaching them to catch a footy or tackle by that stage, it is man managing their strengths and weaknesses and trying to make it fit into the game plan. Ricky has a job with Leilua to manage instinct with structure. My observation on 3 games this season is that Ricky would be happy with the improvement in Leilua from 2018. I'd guess that Ricky doesn't inhibit his attacking play but really just wants him to make good decisions in defence. And he's been doing that IMO.

Craig Bellamy is the best coach in the game because he understands his players totally, and he provides an environment where he manages to focus them on their role. He flies off the handle when his players don't stick to that structure.

I hated Michael Ennis as a player but i'd bet anything that probably his greatest attribute as a player was he delivered on the coaching instructions and helped the players beside him do the same.

A bloke I used to work with in QLD who had a tendency for making racist comments said some similar things to me re: players with Polynesian backgrounds in the NRL... the only difference was that rather than the word "islanders", he used quite a derogatory slur in his description. He also mentioned that he didn't want to come across as racist beforehand.

[yurithe1]

Hahahah Cotric is struggling is as big a greenhouse myth as Paul Vaughan has slow play the balls

Also, anyone advocating for us to get rid of Joey is a deadset ****


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Are you surprised? I mean just last week people were saying we should release Tapine, and literally made up statistics about how many games he's missed over the last three years to prove their point.

Cotric's still a good player and no one in their right mind would suggest he step down to Mounties.

What's reducing his effectiveness this year is that he takes a pass for a hit-up, but then props and does some sort of shake and bake basketball thing about before running into the wall of the players that is still waiting for him. Before, he would have hit the wall and sucked in all of the defensive players there for good metres.

Maybe he's getting worked over in defence a lot more than in the past and he's not keen on taking unnecessary punishment.

As for passing to Whitehead, well, he was there, we weren't. He made a judgment call and it went wrong. Hopefully, the points differential won't matter.

[gangrenous]

So Woodgers - you think we keep Leilua as is, but that cool heads and strategy tend to win out? You seem to counter your own argument.

On the race issue I suspect you might want to control for wealth of the country...

[Woodgers]

Apologies if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intent.

[Botman]

I just want to add to my last post, i've brought up this point before and I sincerely don't want people to view it as a racist post, it's just a general observation on sport.

One of my best mates coaches first grade Rugby Union at the best club in Canberra. Talking to him he deals with a lot of islanders. He says that one of his biggest challenges is trying to get islanders to play to any structure, they'll follow the plan for 10 minutes and then just go back to playing park footy because that's why they're there, to play footy. It's their instinct.

I'm a big soccer fan (sorry fellas - English Dad). You look at a nation like Germany and their physical attributes aren't anything special, but as a general rule they're always a good shot at every world cup. Why? They take 22 players to every tournament that follow the plan to the absolute letter and know their role in every scenario. They could come up against Nigeria or Cameroon who put 11 players out on the park who are faster, have more endurance and are physically stronger. Germany shouldn't win the match but they normally do because they don't stray from the structures and follow the instructions. I can't see an African team winning a world cup in my lifetime because the players as a generalisation play the game but don't stick to the plan and base the 90 minutes around the highest percentage football to win the game.

As a professional coach in any sport, and in the NRL as well, the coach needs to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the players he has. He's not teaching them to catch a footy or tackle by that stage, it is man managing their strengths and weaknesses and trying to make it fit into the game plan. Ricky has a job with Leilua to manage instinct with structure. My observation on 3 games this season is that Ricky would be happy with the improvement in Leilua from 2018. I'd guess that Ricky doesn't inhibit his attacking play but really just wants him to make good decisions in defence. And he's been doing that IMO.

Craig Bellamy is the best coach in the game because he understands his players totally, and he provides an environment where he manages to focus them on their role. He flies off the handle when his players don't stick to that structure.

I hated Michael Ennis as a player but i'd bet anything that probably his greatest attribute as a player was he delivered on the coaching instructions and helped the players beside him do the same.

Maybe ask your coaching friend if he’s heard of a rugby team called the All Blacks. They have a high proportion of Pacific Islanders who seem to be able to stick to a game plan for more than 10 minutes. Perhaps your friend is just a poor coach who makes excuses with not so casual racism?

Just about any of the NZ union teams.

I'm not buying, either.

Yeah count me in
woodgers mate needs to have a good long hard look at himself in the mirror
If that’s how he views and treats his team and islanders within it, he probably has no business being in the role he’s in

That’s blocker roach jungle ball Bull

[Billy Walker]

Apologies if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intent.

No worries - and I do agree with your point that teams with strong systems in place tend to do better than those without - Melbourne Storm a great example.

[Botman]

Also, just have a look through the storm 17.
It’s not like this is a team of Cam Smith’s
They’ve got a ton hyper athletic Polynesians and islanders
All of them tremendously disciplined

Almost as if Craig Bellemy is just a **** great coach

[The Nickman]

Also, just have a look through the storm 17.
It’s not like this is a team of Cam Smith’s
They’ve got a ton hyper athletic Polynesians and islanders
All of them tremendously disciplined

Almost as if Craig Bellemy is just a **** great coach

He’s not a good coach though, he just got lucky with four once in a generation players at once

As soon as they lose Inglis they’ll struggle to make the 8

[The Nickman]

Imagine the outcry if Dubby made that post.

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Imagine the double standards in those who choose to ignore it when it's NOT dubby..

I’m sure once Woodgers has a history of making offensive posts such as that he’ll be rightfully called on it a lot more


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[Boomercm]

How out of form is Cotric really? He had a bad game last week but from memory was ok in game 1 and again last night imo. The outside backs haven’t really been gifted that much opportunity yet.

That turn of foot and swerve to get him near the try line is what I take out of it. Yeah he might not be as confident as some points last year but I don’t really think he’s in some horrible patch of form.

I suspect a minor upper body injury. He seems a little avoidant of contact (thinking incidents like tackling vinuvalu, passing instead of tacking on last line, etc) - this is not like him at all. He reached for his left shoulder area last night at one point.

[Botman]

Also, just have a look through the storm 17.
It’s not like this is a team of Cam Smith’s
They’ve got a ton hyper athletic Polynesians and islanders
All of them tremendously disciplined

Almost as if Craig Bellemy is just a **** great coach

He’s not a good coach though, he just got lucky with four once in a generation players at once

As soon as they lose Inglis they’ll struggle to make the 8

God help em when they lose Inglis, Folau, Cronk AND slater!

[gerg]

Also, just have a look through the storm 17.
It’s not like this is a team of Cam Smith’s
They’ve got a ton hyper athletic Polynesians and islanders
All of them tremendously disciplined

Almost as if Craig Bellemy is just a **** great coach

He’s not a good coach though, he just got lucky with four once in a generation players at once

As soon as they lose Inglis they’ll struggle to make the 8

God help em when they lose Inglis, Folau, Cronk AND slater!

Id like to see how he would go if the NRL grew a set and cracked down on the wrestle. Not because I don't think Bellamy couldn't adapt, but the game as a whole would improve overnight without it.

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[Botman]

I think we all would, mate
But that toothpaste can’t be put back into the tube I’m afraid

Or at least not without destroying the product for at least 8-12 weeks whilst everyone readjusted
And unfortunately the NRL don’t have the spine to ever go through 12 weeks of **** to fix something like that

Also from a rules perspective it would be a nightmare to try and write and police

[Woodgers]

Just to be clear, its been highlighted to me that my articulation was poor in my posts yesterday.

I was not being derogatory towards players of islander background, or any other background. The point that I apologise for that I didn't get across properly is it's my observation that players of islander backgrounds play on natural instincts more than structure. I was trying to say that these players bring good natural footballing ability rather than same old blueprint footy. It was intended to be a compliment of sorts off the back of the Leilua discussion where I was saying I enjoy that natural instinct style he brings to the team as a bit of and X factor for us. I was not putting down anyone from any background.

My point on the soccer was simply that there are countries that have players that play far more on instinct that rigid structures. The African teams do this and their games are often highlights of any world cup because it is so free flowing and attacking and enjoyable to watch. I don't think that style can win a World Cup in a sport where tactics are so important. That was my point there. The comparison to Germany was supposed to be an explanation of rigid structures working to a plan working against that instinctive style in that sport, but what I didn't do was say that it matters less in Rugby League and link it back.

I got a message from someone saying that my insinuation that players from certain backgrounds were too dumb or not competent enough to follow a game plan wasn't ideal. That's not what I was trying to portray whatsoever and if that's how it came across you have my full apology. I wanted to say that in some sports you get naturally instinctive players that just play the game in front of them rather than get stuck in a plan and that's a fair comment.

I don't think it is crossing any sort of line to make observations on skills that certain groups have, as long as you're not being derogatory. We should be able to say that Kenyans are great endurance athletes, Jamaicans wonderful sprinters, Chinese and Russians great gymnasts, Brazilians awesome soccer players etc.

But in any event, i'm not going to go round and round the block on this, i'd prefer just to stop posting. Hopefully i've cleared up the message I was trying to make and people can accept my apology for any unintended offence I made by not articulating myself better.

[Billy Walker]

Just to be clear, its been highlighted to me that my articulation was poor in my posts yesterday.

I was not being derogatory towards players of islander background, or any other background. The point that I apologise for that I didn't get across properly is it's my observation that players of islander backgrounds play on natural instincts more than structure. I was trying to say that these players bring good natural footballing ability rather than same old blueprint footy. It was intended to be a compliment of sorts off the back of the Leilua discussion where I was saying I enjoy that natural instinct style he brings to the team as a bit of and X factor for us. I was not putting down anyone from any background.

My point on the soccer was simply that there are countries that have players that play far more on instinct that rigid structures. The African teams do this and their games are often highlights of any world cup because it is so free flowing and attacking and enjoyable to watch. I don't think that style can win a World Cup in a sport where tactics are so important. That was my point there. The comparison to Germany was supposed to be an explanation of rigid structures working to a plan working against that instinctive style in that sport, but what I didn't do was say that it matters less in Rugby League and link it back.

I got a message from someone saying that my insinuation that players from certain backgrounds were too dumb or not competent enough to follow a game plan wasn't ideal. That's not what I was trying to portray whatsoever and if that's how it came across you have my full apology. I wanted to say that in some sports you get naturally instinctive players that just play the game in front of them rather than get stuck in a plan and that's a fair comment.

I don't think it is crossing any sort of line to make observations on skills that certain groups have, as long as you're not being derogatory. We should be able to say that Kenyans are great endurance athletes, Jamaicans wonderful sprinters, Chinese and Russians great gymnasts, Brazilians awesome soccer players etc.

But in any event, i'm not going to go round and round the block on this, i'd prefer just to stop posting. Hopefully i've cleared up the message I was trying to make and people can accept my apology for any unintended offence I made by not articulating myself better.

Yep - let’s all move on. Don’t stop posting Woodgers I like your insights on things. We all miss the mark on occasion but no big deal.

[The Nickman]

dubby, give Woodgers his account back!


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[greeneyed]

Round 3 in the sheds: Sam Williams: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/03 ... -williams/

Round 3 in the sheds: John Bateman: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/03 ... n-bateman/

[Woodgers]

Rickman you can probably tell from my posts that i love jokes, I try not to take the footy too seriously.

I can take online forums or leave them, this is one of the few I participate in and i'd walk away tomorrow and never look at it again no problems.

What's upset me (on my Birthday no less) is that it became apparent to me earlier today that I'd stuffed up. I'm aware we have people on here from all over the place from all different backgrounds and the thought that i'd offended posters that I have a lot of time for hasn't sat well with me today. It hasn't been funny for me, and I've taken time out of my day at the expense of my family time to try and correct the record somewhat.

[greeneyed]

I very sincerely hope Woodgers keeps posting. He's a good man. One of the best.

[-TW-]

I'm lost, there was a blow up about what Woodgers posted why?

He was telling a story, everyone needs to stop being so PC all the **** time

[Botman]

Woody's birthday. It must be the Matt Orford anniversary!
HAZZAH! What a night... or so im told

[-PJ-]

Woody's birthday. It must be the Matt Orford anniversary!
HAZZAH! What a night... or so im told

ha pig. The Awford anniversary is on Tues 2nd.

8yrs ago on Tues. The day former premiership winner and Dally M player of the year lost the unloseable...

[Botman]

All i know is i was at Woodgers house celebrating his birthday that night, and i dont remember a whole lot beyond the Matt Orford error... I dont know who the drunkest human alive was at 10pm that night, but i was top 10 minimum.

[gangrenous]

Woodgers is one of my favourite posters on the Greenhouse.

You might be able to walk away no problems Woodgers, but did you ever think how it might affect ol’ gangers?

[The Nickman]

Rickman you can probably tell from my posts that i love jokes, I try not to take the footy too seriously.

I can take online forums or leave them, this is one of the few I participate in and i'd walk away tomorrow and never look at it again no problems.

What's upset me (on my Birthday no less) is that it became apparent to me earlier today that I'd stuffed up. I'm aware we have people on here from all over the place from all different backgrounds and the thought that i'd offended posters that I have a lot of time for hasn't sat well with me today. It hasn't been funny for me, and I've taken time out of my day at the expense of my family time to try and correct the record somewhat.

Mate, I don’t think anyone seriously thought you were being racist or offensive, maybe just a bit clumsily worded.

We see much worse on this forum quite semi-regularly, so I wouldn’t be too upset.


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[Raiders Lim!]

I'm lost, there was a blow up about what Woodgers posted why?

He was telling a story, everyone needs to stop being so PC all the **** time

Woodgers aside, here lies the problem. "He meant no harm, this is just the fun police, the hippy lefty civil libertarians, PC greens who are taking away my right to tell a story the way I want. It's not my fault you get offended by it"

But hey, this is an online footy forum so whatever.

[Finchy]

I hate the hippy lefty civil libertarian PC greens

[-TW-]

I'm lost, there was a blow up about what Woodgers posted why?

He was telling a story, everyone needs to stop being so PC all the **** time

Woodgers aside, here lies the problem. "He meant no harm, this is just the fun police, the hippy lefty civil libertarians, PC greens who are taking away my right to tell a story the way I want. It's not my fault you get offended by it"

But hey, this is an online footy forum so whatever.

No, what you've said is the problem.

As Stephen Fry says "I'm offended.. so **** what?" Just cause you're offended by something doesn't mean the whole world needs to change for you.

[Raiders Lim!]

I'm lost, there was a blow up about what Woodgers posted why?

He was telling a story, everyone needs to stop being so PC all the **** time

Woodgers aside, here lies the problem. "He meant no harm, this is just the fun police, the hippy lefty civil libertarians, PC greens who are taking away my right to tell a story the way I want. It's not my fault you get offended by it"

But hey, this is an online footy forum so whatever.

No, what you've said is the problem.

As Stephen Fry says "I'm offended.. so **** what?" Just cause you're offended by something doesn't mean the whole world needs to change for you.

Back in my box then... I'll stay in my lane.

[-TW-]

That probably came across a bit pointed.

My point was that in this case it was a general observation made. There wasn't any intention, (I'm sure by Woodgers mate but definitely Woodgers) to be offensive, it was just stating what he noticed.

It's a grey area of the world that **** me to tears, especially a subculture that are on the hunt for things to be offended by

[Hazza]

Joey Leilua is a brain dead footballer that will cost you games and win you games. I've made peace with it. He's virtually uncoachable. But I like him on our team because as a centre his physicality means his opposite number can barely ever contain him 1 on 1. So inside the opposition 10 he's one of the most dangerous players in the game. Rapana gets a lot of tries because opposition wingers have to jam in to help the centre try contain Joey. He's an X factor player we need, and the more he works on his fitness and gets back to help out our back 3 the more I value his contributions to this team. You will never get the stupid stuff out of his game because he wouldn't be the same player. It is what it is.

I made peace with it 3 years ago. You can't rap him when he does something brilliant then turn around and bag him when he has a brain fade. Well. You can. I don't though. 'ahh typical Joey' and brush it off. I happen to adore the man. He brings far more positives than negatives to the table

[BadnMean]

Just got a chance to watch the game, a few thoughts on it and the reactions...

Sam played well.
You can say his try was poor D or that he just kept his eyes and hands darting around enough to keep defenders in doubt as to his intent long enough for the hole to open up. Hodgo gets huge raps when he does that. Good try. He kicked very, very effectively second half, including the field goal.
The only period he "disappears" is when we keep dropping the ball on the early tackles or giving penalties away in possession or kicking on the 3rd. For a period there we are just always defending, doing the aforesaid or running forward hit ups- it never gets to a backs play, nor should he be demanding one out our own end there. He played well, put his body on the line in defence.

No panic about the "quiet" players- Whitehead notably led the charge in defence on a 3rd consecutive defending our line set- he stood up and put a couple of big shoulders in, leading the speed just when someone needed to. Even if he's not starring, he knew when to contribute.

Cotric burns half a team then throws a silly pass. He'll be fine.

Jack had a real stinker but he didn't shrink or go away. I've seen Maloney have some stinkers (ok, not quite that bad but something like 3 drops and a try cause in dry weather single half) and then win the game because he still has the confidence to come up with the play. He never goes away.
I agree Jack still seems to want to do everything at 100mph - its great for making yards and charge downs and kick chase and laying blokes out and even as a FB doing that sweep play at full tilt is a thing of beauty... but if he wants to be a half he'll need to calm down sometimes and pick his moments.

[The Nickman]

Just got a chance to watch the game, a few thoughts on it and the reactions...

Sam played well.
You can say his try was poor D or that he just kept his eyes and hands darting around enough to keep defenders in doubt as to his intent long enough for the hole to open up. Hodgo gets huge raps when he does that. Good try. He kicked very, very effectively second half, including the field goal.
The only period he "disappears" is when we keep dropping the ball on the early tackles or giving penalties away in possession or kicking on the 3rd. For a period there we are just always defending, doing the aforesaid or running forward hit ups- it never gets to a backs play, nor should he be demanding one out our own end there. He played well, put his body on the line in defence.

No panic about the "quiet" players- Whitehead notably led the charge in defence on a 3rd consecutive defending our line set- he stood up and put a couple of big shoulders in, leading the speed just when someone needed to. Even if he's not starring, he knew when to contribute.

Cotric burns half a team then throws a silly pass. He'll be fine.

Jack had a real stinker but he didn't shrink or go away. I've seen Maloney have some stinkers (ok, not quite that bad but something like 3 drops and a try cause in dry weather single half) and then win the game because he still has the confidence to come up with the play. He never goes away.
I agree Jack still seems to want to do everything at 100mph - its great for making yards and charge downs and kick chase and laying blokes out and even as a FB doing that sweep play at full tilt is a thing of beauty... but if he wants to be a half he'll need to calm down sometimes and pick his moments.

Good assessment. The whole team is playing well to start 2019, SO much better than the last two years, it just seems to me this forum needs something or someone to gripe about every week.


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[gerg]

Geeez. Thankfully we won, though you wouldn't know it.

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[Raiders Lim!]

That probably came across a bit pointed.

My point was that in this case it was a general observation made. There wasn't any intention, (I'm sure by Woodgers mate but definitely Woodgers) to be offensive, it was just stating what he noticed.

It's a grey area of the world that **** me to tears, especially a subculture that are on the hunt for things to be offended by

Like I said, it’s a footy forum so I’m not under any illusion that we’re going to solve anything here. I’d much rather be discussing how Georgie Williams is going to be Sticky’s second coming.

I just don’t think we can conflate people looking for things to be offended by with people who may actually be offended.

You are right, it is grey and it is frustrating. Of course Woodgers didn’t mean to offend anyone but it’s a sort of chicken and the egg thing. Consciously or not, In this case we perpetuate a cultural stereotype that puts an entire race of people in a box with Joey Leilua - which for the most part I don’t think anyone would want.