Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Johno » January 19, 2019, 2:52 pm

RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 2:15 pm
I don't want Abbey as the last line of defence. He wasn't up to it last year and even after the toughest preseason ever I would still prefer Jack at the back.

Sam and Sezer can do the job imo. The problem is if one is injured. It may be then that some shuffling happens for a short period of time with Hodgo in the halves. I just don't think Abbey has shown he's a FGer as yet.
Im hoping last years experience and a pre season with the club he may become a solid first grader
One thing I liked about him is his willingness to back up very often.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by LP Raider » January 19, 2019, 2:55 pm

RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 2:15 pm
I don't want Abbey as the last line of defence. He wasn't up to it last year and even after the toughest preseason ever I would still prefer Jack at the back.

Sam and Sezer can do the job imo. The problem is if one is injured. It may be then that some shuffling happens for a short period of time with Hodgo in the halves. I just don't think Abbey has shown he's a FGer as yet.
I'd prefer we stiffen the first line of defence and not leave it up to the fullback.

Unless it's has been a one on one situation there have been few situations where Wighton has been that good in defence at the back.

That would Imo conclude that Wightons best position in D is in the front line, if Abbey can be nothing more than a speed hump and slow down broken play than we are better off than having Williams in the front line.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by RedRaider » January 19, 2019, 3:53 pm

I disagree LPR. Sammy defence stats were slightly better than Sezer last season. We have removed Austen who imo was our worst last season. The stats don't show when Austen didn't even attempt to make a tackle. I thought Sammy showed some improved D last year.

I also thought Jack was finally showing some FB consistency last year. I wouldn't move him after the development work is finally bearing fruit.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by edwahu » January 19, 2019, 3:58 pm

RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:53 pm
I disagree LPR. Sammy defence stats were slightly better than Sezer last season. We have removed Austen who imo was our worst last season. The stats don't show when Austen didn't even attempt to make a tackle. I thought Sammy showed some improved D last year.

I also thought Jack was finally showing some FB consistency last year. I wouldn't move him after the development work is finally bearing fruit.
Sammy's defence stats were not better. They were much, much worse.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... =tryCauses

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Seiffert82 » January 19, 2019, 8:00 pm

Williams at least got himself in a position to make most tackles. Austin on the other hand, often shot out of the line or made such a bad read he ended up getting a hand on nobody. To that extent, Williams tackle stats would looks worse than Austin's.

Part of that issue was the combo with Leilua, who was equally as horrific as Austin.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Ruben Daley » January 19, 2019, 8:26 pm

Williams worked hard on his defence and easily better than Austin (who isn’t?) but Sezer has him covered. Add Wighton and we have arguably one of the best defensive halves combos in the comp.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Coastalraider » January 19, 2019, 8:27 pm

Ruben Daley wrote:
January 19, 2019, 8:26 pm
Williams worked hard on his defence and easily better than Austin (who isn’t?) but Sezer has him covered. Add Wighton and we have arguably one of the best defensive halves combos in the comp.
Correct, but I don’t think many teams would be worried about them in attack.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by RedRaider » January 20, 2019, 12:23 am

edwahu wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:58 pm
RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:53 pm
I disagree LPR. Sammy defence stats were slightly better than Sezer last season. We have removed Austen who imo was our worst last season. The stats don't show when Austen didn't even attempt to make a tackle. I thought Sammy showed some improved D last year.

I also thought Jack was finally showing some FB consistency last year. I wouldn't move him after the development work is finally bearing fruit.
Sammy's defence stats were not better. They were much, much worse.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... =tryCauses
Thanks for all those stats Ed. I was recalling the 'missed tackle' stat from our end of year review and Sam is slightly better than Sezer. To me a player either makes a tackle or they don't. Interesting that Sezer is slightly worse per game on missed tackles but those misses didn't lead to a line break? That seems an anomaly to me.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by TongueFTW » January 20, 2019, 5:20 am

Stating the obvious - but if we don't sign an NRL level half or fullback, the season is a write off unless Abbey can have a breakout year. It's funny because Abbey is the kind of player I think we should target - young juniour rep player looking for a chance. They usually come cheap and have a small chance of a big upside, but most of the time will flop and cost you nothing.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by edwahu » January 20, 2019, 6:10 am

RedRaider wrote:
January 20, 2019, 12:23 am
edwahu wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:58 pm
RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:53 pm
I disagree LPR. Sammy defence stats were slightly better than Sezer last season. We have removed Austen who imo was our worst last season. The stats don't show when Austen didn't even attempt to make a tackle. I thought Sammy showed some improved D last year.

I also thought Jack was finally showing some FB consistency last year. I wouldn't move him after the development work is finally bearing fruit.
Sammy's defence stats were not better. They were much, much worse.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... =tryCauses
Thanks for all those stats Ed. I was recalling the 'missed tackle' stat from our end of year review and Sam is slightly better than Sezer. To me a player either makes a tackle or they don't. Interesting that Sezer is slightly worse per game on missed tackles but those misses didn't lead to a line break? That seems an anomaly to me.
I think it makes sense and would reflect what the eye test shows. Sezer isn't isolated as much and has better first up contact.

Williams makes more one on one tackles because he is heavily targeted in the line, so it's more likely a missed tackle leads to the attacking player going through. Sezer might miss a tackle but is rarely steamrolled so he will have someone near enough or already involved to shut the play down.

The Line Break cause and Try cause stats would also include the Austin type plays where no tackle is even attempted, although I think Williams wouldn't have as many of those.
Last edited by edwahu on January 20, 2019, 7:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by edwahu » January 20, 2019, 6:17 am

TongueFTW wrote:
January 20, 2019, 5:20 am
Stating the obvious - but if we don't sign an NRL level half or fullback, the season is a write off unless Abbey can have a breakout year. It's funny because Abbey is the kind of player I think we should target - young juniour rep player looking for a chance. They usually come cheap and have a small chance of a big upside, but most of the time will flop and cost you nothing.
I don't think any player costs you nothing. You said it yourself, if Abbey plays and doesn't have a breakout year the season is a write off.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Roger Kenworthy » January 20, 2019, 7:32 am

edwahu wrote:
January 20, 2019, 6:10 am
RedRaider wrote:
January 20, 2019, 12:23 am
edwahu wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:58 pm
RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:53 pm
I disagree LPR. Sammy defence stats were slightly better than Sezer last season. We have removed Austen who imo was our worst last season. The stats don't show when Austen didn't even attempt to make a tackle. I thought Sammy showed some improved D last year.

I also thought Jack was finally showing some FB consistency last year. I wouldn't move him after the development work is finally bearing fruit.
Sammy's defence stats were not better. They were much, much worse.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... =tryCauses
Thanks for all those stats Ed. I was recalling the 'missed tackle' stat from our end of year review and Sam is slightly better than Sezer. To me a player either makes a tackle or they don't. Interesting that Sezer is slightly worse per game on missed tackles but those misses didn't lead to a line break? That seems an anomaly to me.
I think it makes sense and would reflect what the eye test shows. Sezer isn't isolated as much and has better first up contact.

Williams makes more one on one tackles because he is heavily targeted in the line, so it's more likely a missed tackle leads to the attacking player going through. Sezer might miss a tackle but is rarely steamrolled so he will have someone near enough or already involved to shut the play down.

The Line Break cause and Try cause stats would also include the Austin type plays where no tackle is even attempted, although I think Williams wouldn't have as many of those.
I think it also shows that the defensive line around Sezer is much more composed than around Williams. Sezer doesn't have that reputation so there isn't the panic in the d line when he has to make a tackle.

If only we could merge their defense and attack skills we'd have a first grade level half.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by gergreg » January 20, 2019, 8:28 am

It's easy to point at Williams and Austin and their defence stats, but opposition teams didn't spend 5 tackles attacking these two directly and repeatedly over 80 minutes. Sure they were the worst in our system but our defence isn't up to scratch completely across the whole park.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by dubby » January 20, 2019, 10:04 am

Attack is a form of defense.
I think Jack is the best fullback we have in terms of kick return.

Abbey, Cotric, Oldfield, are not at the same level as Jack in kick returns as fullback, or in defence.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by dubby » January 20, 2019, 10:04 am

I think it's inevitable Jack will play 6 at some point. We'll see.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by greeneyed » January 20, 2019, 10:49 am

Wighton might be the best fullback at the club for kick returns, but it is not really his strongest point IMO. He averaged 34 kick return metres, from 3.5 returns, per match. Tuivasa Sheck, Tedesco, Edwards, Dallin Watene Zelezniak and Holmes all averaged over 50 krm per match.
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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by RedRaider » January 20, 2019, 12:43 pm

This is where I think Jack's kick return meters stats are hurt by our poor defensive effort. When sides are regularly putting in attacking kicks into our in goal with a strong kick chase the FB has little room to move. If the opposition are kicking from further back it presents more opportunity for the FB to run. Yet another reason to hit and drive back the opposition ball carrier just like the chooks did to Melbourne in the Grand Final. Imo their attacking defence laid the foundation for the win.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by LimeGreenMachine » January 20, 2019, 2:00 pm

RedRaider wrote:This is where I think Jack's kick return meters stats are hurt by our poor defensive effort. When sides are regularly putting in attacking kicks into our in goal with a strong kick chase the FB has little room to move. If the opposition are kicking from further back it presents more opportunity for the FB to run. Yet another reason to hit and drive back the opposition ball carrier just like the chooks did to Melbourne in the Grand Final. Imo their attacking defence laid the foundation for the win.
That is true. When we allow teams to march 70m down field in a set they are putting an attacking kick in with little room for good kick return metres opposed to the team kicking from their own 40m. Stats can be read whatever way you want they don't necessarily tell all the story.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by RedRaider » January 20, 2019, 3:07 pm

edwahu wrote:
January 20, 2019, 6:10 am
RedRaider wrote:
January 20, 2019, 12:23 am
edwahu wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:58 pm
RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:53 pm
I disagree LPR. Sammy defence stats were slightly better than Sezer last season. We have removed Austen who imo was our worst last season. The stats don't show when Austen didn't even attempt to make a tackle. I thought Sammy showed some improved D last year.

I also thought Jack was finally showing some FB consistency last year. I wouldn't move him after the development work is finally bearing fruit.
Sammy's defence stats were not better. They were much, much worse.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... =tryCauses
Thanks for all those stats Ed. I was recalling the 'missed tackle' stat from our end of year review and Sam is slightly better than Sezer. To me a player either makes a tackle or they don't. Interesting that Sezer is slightly worse per game on missed tackles but those misses didn't lead to a line break? That seems an anomaly to me.
I think it makes sense and would reflect what the eye test shows. Sezer isn't isolated as much and has better first up contact.

Williams makes more one on one tackles because he is heavily targeted in the line, so it's more likely a missed tackle leads to the attacking player going through. Sezer might miss a tackle but is rarely steamrolled so he will have someone near enough or already involved to shut the play down.

The Line Break cause and Try cause stats would also include the Austin type plays where no tackle is even attempted, although I think Williams wouldn't have as many of those.
Ed, so are you saying Sezer is a 'much, much better defender' because Sezer has team mates around him to stop line breaks and they are not around Sam Williams. The difference in missed tackles is very close with Sam's record last year better than Sezers. I go back to basics and say a player lines up an opponent and either makes the tackle or misses. If lack of players around Sam appears to show more line breaks then it would add evidence that there are some structural issues in defence.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for

Post by Coastalraider » January 20, 2019, 3:29 pm

LimeGreenMachine wrote:
January 20, 2019, 2:00 pm
RedRaider wrote:This is where I think Jack's kick return meters stats are hurt by our poor defensive effort. When sides are regularly putting in attacking kicks into our in goal with a strong kick chase the FB has little room to move. If the opposition are kicking from further back it presents more opportunity for the FB to run. Yet another reason to hit and drive back the opposition ball carrier just like the chooks did to Melbourne in the Grand Final. Imo their attacking defence laid the foundation for the win.
That is true. When we allow teams to march 70m down field in a set they are putting an attacking kick in with little room for good kick return metres opposed to the team kicking from their own 40m. Stats can be read whatever way you want they don't necessarily tell all the story.

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The other thing with Jack is that he attacks like he defends - he aim sstraight at his man more often than not and tries to go over the top. RTS for example is always looking at gaps.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by greeneyed » January 20, 2019, 3:33 pm

Shouldn't he be looking for gaps?
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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by edwahu » January 20, 2019, 3:58 pm

RedRaider wrote:
January 20, 2019, 3:07 pm
edwahu wrote:
January 20, 2019, 6:10 am
RedRaider wrote:
January 20, 2019, 12:23 am
edwahu wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:58 pm
RedRaider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 3:53 pm
I disagree LPR. Sammy defence stats were slightly better than Sezer last season. We have removed Austen who imo was our worst last season. The stats don't show when Austen didn't even attempt to make a tackle. I thought Sammy showed some improved D last year.

I also thought Jack was finally showing some FB consistency last year. I wouldn't move him after the development work is finally bearing fruit.
Sammy's defence stats were not better. They were much, much worse.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... =tryCauses
Thanks for all those stats Ed. I was recalling the 'missed tackle' stat from our end of year review and Sam is slightly better than Sezer. To me a player either makes a tackle or they don't. Interesting that Sezer is slightly worse per game on missed tackles but those misses didn't lead to a line break? That seems an anomaly to me.
I think it makes sense and would reflect what the eye test shows. Sezer isn't isolated as much and has better first up contact.

Williams makes more one on one tackles because he is heavily targeted in the line, so it's more likely a missed tackle leads to the attacking player going through. Sezer might miss a tackle but is rarely steamrolled so he will have someone near enough or already involved to shut the play down.

The Line Break cause and Try cause stats would also include the Austin type plays where no tackle is even attempted, although I think Williams wouldn't have as many of those.
Ed, so are you saying Sezer is a 'much, much better defender' because Sezer has team mates around him to stop line breaks and they are not around Sam Williams. The difference in missed tackles is very close with Sam's record last year better than Sezers. I go back to basics and say a player lines up an opponent and either makes the tackle or misses. If lack of players around Sam appears to show more line breaks then it would add evidence that there are some structural issues in defence.
Actually I said his stats are much much worse, which they are. Relying on .1 of a missed tackle a game to tell you something meaningful over huge gaps in every other more telling stat is taking going back to basics too far.

Regardless I don't need stats to tell me he is a much much worse defender, I have my eyes for that and Williams career to date.

To expand on what myself and Roger Kenworthy said, Williams edge has to make more tough decisions defending around Williams, and Williams has to as well, because he is a massive target and the opposition are running plays based on isolating him or getting his edge or him to shoot out of their line in fear of him being isolated. They are doing so because if you get him one on one you're going through. Sezer is less of a target because he and his edge make better calls and he is rarely isolated or making a bad call to go out of the line, primarily because if he is, his contact is much better and you're not going to go through easily. So less tries all up because of Sezer.

If Austin wasn't in the side Sammy's stats would've been even worse, because he would've had even more traffic going his way.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Ruben Daley » January 20, 2019, 5:02 pm

Coastalraider wrote:
January 19, 2019, 8:27 pm
Ruben Daley wrote:
January 19, 2019, 8:26 pm
Williams worked hard on his defence and easily better than Austin (who isn’t?) but Sezer has him covered. Add Wighton and we have arguably one of the best defensive halves combos in the comp.
Correct, but I don’t think many teams would be worried about them in attack.
Maybe not in the same way as they are about other teams' halves but our most threatening attacking players are on the edge and have always been very effective, so it doesn't matter much if no one is that worried about our halves.

I actually think teams will be quite concerned about Jack running the ball. He creates a fair bit of doubt in the defensive line as a fullback, which is where a lot of his try-assists come from. It'll be a bit different at five-eighth because he won't be sweeping around behind the attacking line to be the extra man but he'll get opportunities like Austin did. He'll just be more about power than stepping and dummying.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Coastalraider » January 20, 2019, 5:33 pm

greeneyed wrote:
January 20, 2019, 3:33 pm
Shouldn't he be looking for gaps?
Yeah I think so, but watch him, he so regularly aims directly at the opposition player. He is a big body, and a bloody big hitter as we see in defence, but I think his natural instinct is to hit the man, not try to beat the man in attack.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Matt » January 20, 2019, 7:16 pm

Guys,
Austin vs Williams defensively speaking is summed up very simply as 1 can tackle, while the other can defend. Unfortunately, that means both suck, its just they suck in different and opposite ways.

The argument that if Williams was at 6 all yr his numbers would be worse is silly. Coz the same can be said of Austin.

Anyone suggesting that either of these 2 are better than Sezer, they 'should have gone to specsavers'.

As for the Wighton arguments...
1. Yes, he is currently the best FB we have.
2. Yes, he has become a gun at the sweep play.
3. Yes, the guy hits like a truck.
4. Yes, he prefers to be the truck with the ball too. At 6'2" and 93kgs, not hard to see why.
5. Yes, there is a good chance he gets another crack at 5/8 in his career. And yes, there is a chance its gonna be this yr.
5a. He will have the 2nd best hooker in the game making most if the decisions. He will have an avg, maybe good half, at his side, but at worst at least he will be fully fit. Then at FB he will have? Maybe an rookie super talent, maybe a journeyman, maybe another NRL level FB recruit. That trumps, plodder hooker, 1 legged man, and rookie Milf at FB.
6. Kick return stats are definitely affected by kick location of the opposition.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Ruben Daley » January 20, 2019, 8:37 pm

Matt wrote:
January 20, 2019, 7:16 pm
Guys,
Austin vs Williams defensively speaking is summed up very simply as 1 can tackle, while the other can defend. Unfortunately, that means both suck, its just they suck in different and opposite ways.

The argument that if Williams was at 6 all yr his numbers would be worse is silly. Coz the same can be said of Austin.

Anyone suggesting that either of these 2 are better than Sezer, they 'should have gone to specsavers'.

As for the Wighton arguments...
1. Yes, he is currently the best FB we have.
2. Yes, he has become a gun at the sweep play.
3. Yes, the guy hits like a truck.
4. Yes, he prefers to be the truck with the ball too. At 6'2" and 93kgs, not hard to see why.
5. Yes, there is a good chance he gets another crack at 5/8 in his career. And yes, there is a chance its gonna be this yr.
5a. He will have the 2nd best hooker in the game making most if the decisions. He will have an avg, maybe good half, at his side, but at worst at least he will be fully fit. Then at FB he will have? Maybe an rookie super talent, maybe a journeyman, maybe another NRL level FB recruit. That trumps, plodder hooker, 1 legged man, and rookie Milf at FB.
6. Kick return stats are definitely affected by kick location of the opposition.
Excellent post, Matt.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Woodgers » January 21, 2019, 10:15 am

Which side will Sezer defend at because we've seen us swap that around before to try shift our problems to the other side of the field. The reason for the question is that if Sezer is back to defending on the left and the #6 on the right, it strengthens the 'pro' for playing Wighton in the line because that will instantly make BJ a more confident and competent defender than having Williams there. The issues BJ has a lot of the time are his trust on his inside man, he's got enough strength and technique to do the job.
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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by RTW » January 21, 2019, 11:15 am

Wighton has shown in attack that he is best on the left and the sweep plate suits Croker more so then Leilua.


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Re: Jack Wighton set for

Post by simo » January 21, 2019, 11:34 am

RTW wrote:
January 21, 2019, 11:15 am
Wighton has shown in attack that he is best on the left and the sweep plate suits Croker more so then Leilua.


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I wouldnt be surprised to see sezer attack both sides of the ruck with wighton just holding to left edge. Plays to leiluas strength to have sezer drag another defender left as well
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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Riaan » January 21, 2019, 12:28 pm

Where ever Wighton players we are going to have a spine that is going to be very easy to shut down considering Hodgson is our only real attacking threat.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Seiffert82 » January 21, 2019, 12:33 pm

I must have imagined our attack being top 2 the past three seasons then, even with Austin mostly playing like ass.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Green eyed Mick » January 21, 2019, 1:31 pm

Seiffert82 wrote:
January 21, 2019, 12:33 pm
I must have imagined our attack being top 2 the past three seasons then, even with Austin mostly playing like ass.
Mostly? Austin was a selfish one trick pony in attack and a lazy, uncommitted bum in defence for the last two seasons. It is truly mind boggling that our idiot coach kept selecting him.

Regardless of who Ricky selects in the halves (Wighton or Williams) we are going to be better in both attack and defence without that show pony Austin stinking the joint up.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by dubby » January 21, 2019, 1:52 pm

Our idiot coach did drop Austin, remember.


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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by zim » January 21, 2019, 1:55 pm

It's very subtle, but I get the impression GEM doesn't like the way Austin plays.

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Re: Jack Wighton set for "shock" switch in Raiders shake-up

Post by Matt » January 21, 2019, 2:10 pm

Woodgers wrote:
January 21, 2019, 10:15 am
Which side will Sezer defend at because we've seen us swap that around before to try shift our problems to the other side of the field. The reason for the question is that if Sezer is back to defending on the left and the #6 on the right, it strengthens the 'pro' for playing Wighton in the line because that will instantly make BJ a more confident and competent defender than having Williams there. The issues BJ has a lot of the time are his trust on his inside man, he's got enough strength and technique to do the job.
Sezer went to the right after Austin and BJ came to blows.
I believe they stayed that way when Williams was at 6.
Jack has definitely been a better player down the left channel than the right, so I suspect that wont change.

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