The Greenhouse

bonehead wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.

bonehead wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.

bonehead wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.

PigRickman wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm

bonehead wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.

also he's a **** captain, cant pass and cant kick
So y'know...

Oh **** my **** ****... **** ITALL

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 16, 2019, 4:48 pm

PigRickman wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm

bonehead wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.

also he's a **** captain, cant pass and cant kick
So y'know...

Oh **** my **** ****... **** ITALL

Your fav defensive stats back up he's the weaker defender.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/05/15/ran ... 19-origin/

PigRickman wrote: ↑May 16, 2019, 7:22 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 16, 2019, 4:48 pm

PigRickman wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm

bonehead wrote: ↑May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.

also he's a **** captain, cant pass and cant kick
So y'know...

Oh **** my **** ****... **** ITALL

Your fav defensive stats back up he's the weaker defender.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/05/15/ran ... 19-origin/

as per Fox Sports Stat Lab.
He's basically in contention for a position against Ramien, Dugan, Peachey and Morris. With Latrell Mitchell having his mortgage paid clean off on his position.

So lets compare like for like...

Croker 6 TC, 8 LBC, 80% TE, 7 Errors, 3 Pens, 4 T, 2 TA, 8 LB and 2 LBA
Dugan 6 TC, 3 LBC, 79% TE, 19 Errors, 3 Pens, 3 T, 2 TA, 4 LB and 2 LBA
Morris 5 TC, 5 LBC, 87% TE, 8 Errors, 1 Pens, 5 T, 1 TA, 8 LB and 1 LBA
Peachey 6 TC, 7 LBC, 79% TE, 10 Errors, 11 Pens, 2 T, 2 TA, 3 LB and 2 LBA
Ramien 1 TC, 6 LBC, 83% TE, 10 Errors, 0 Pens, 1 T, 0 TA, 3 LB and 0 LBA

Now i dont know if his stats merit origin selection, but this is SOO we're talking about his defensively there isnt much between them. His TC is basically on par with everyone but Ramien (who offers just nothing on the offensive end, statistically), his LBC are definitely a worry from a SOO selection point but that's some what offset by his lack of errors and penalties. He's also clearly very strong in attack so that offsets things a little

Based off that, i dont think i'd pick Croker, but id pick him before Ramien, Peachey and Dugan. Morris looks like the right option, statistically.

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 7:05 am

Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 7:05 am Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.

edwahu wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 7:53 am Defensive stats should be assessed relative to position.

Croker has middle of the pack defensive stats for a centre.

Williams has the worst defensive stats for a half. I mean he has the most line break causes in the entire league across all regular starters in any position.

PigRickman wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 8:40 am

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 7:05 am Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.

Yeah im not really that into TE, it's nothing more than an extension of miss tackles... TE is simply % of tackles made vs attempt, i've spoken at length about why i DGAF about mistackle counts without context, ive said time and time again that LBC and TC are stats that most concern me.
So it's probably not as interesting as you want to think it is.

Also Croker, what ever you think of his defence which may be up for debate, it can not be argued that he doesnt offset at least a good portion of that with supreme attacking prowess. Something Sam Williams absolutely does not offer up.

Beejay wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 8:18 am

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 7:05 am

Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.

Defensive efficiency is simply : Tackles / Missed tackles.

It simply serves to show if someone has high missed tackles but also make a gazzillion. The missed tackle stat itself is highly misleading. That percentage means almost nothing.

The truth is for a decently sized bloke, Jarrod Croker has pretty weak contact, and often ends up with a pretty inefficient tackle - whether that gets born out in the stats or not. But he's always getting his body in the way and never actually shirks the contact. His decision making is about average as a first grade centre, not the best but also certainly not the worst. Effort in defence and scramble is high.
Centres and Wingers are constantly having to make difficult decisions in defence due to coming up against a good offensive movement putting them in a 3v2 or worse situation. So 'try contribution' stats end much higher for Centres and Wingers than any other position.

Sam Williams is smaller than Croker, with weaker contact than Croker, and has poorer decision making in the few times he gets isolated. He's also not our Captain, goal kicker and potent attacking player.

The Rickman wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 10:48 am All I'm going to add to this discussion is that Jarrod Croker being a poor defender is a myth and has always been a myth. He defends quite fine when the guy inside him isn't an incompetent bafoon, shuts down PLENTY of attacking raids. He and Cotric work quite well together, but hot tip: they're marking centres and wingers, they're going to have tries scored against them eventually.

On the other side of the coin, Sam Williams is a poor defender, although I like how he's bulked up this season and he's at least throwing his body into tackles unlike Blake "Hey, look at me" Austin. He's still a poor defender, and I don't need to see any stats to confirm that.

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 10:59 am Croker is a middle of the road defender when it comes to contact. The difference is the past few years we've had a system on our left edge where this is covered by a pretty good system defensively. I'd say there were times in the past where he was closer to poor than middle of the road overall defensively, but that hasn't been the case since around 2014 or 2015 and that was majorly because our defensive systems were breaking down and letting him get isolated. He's probably only had 5 - 10 clangers where his opposite ran over the top of him so that has been exaggerated (probably by me at the time).

BadnMean wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:03 am

The Rickman wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 10:48 am All I'm going to add to this discussion is that Jarrod Croker being a poor defender is a myth and has always been a myth. He defends quite fine when the guy inside him isn't an incompetent bafoon, shuts down PLENTY of attacking raids. He and Cotric work quite well together, but hot tip: they're marking centres and wingers, they're going to have tries scored against them eventually.

On the other side of the coin, Sam Williams is a poor defender, although I like how he's bulked up this season and he's at least throwing his body into tackles unlike Blake "Hey, look at me" Austin. He's still a poor defender, and I don't need to see any stats to confirm that.

Also fair. We expect Cotric, BJ or Jordy Raps to burn one of their opposite numbers most weeks. Doesn't always mean their opposite number is crap, it's just what these guys are good at and some weeks they do it or they are out of a job.

The Rickman wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:05 am

Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 10:59 am Croker is a middle of the road defender when it comes to contact. The difference is the past few years we've had a system on our left edge where this is covered by a pretty good system defensively. I'd say there were times in the past where he was closer to poor than middle of the road overall defensively, but that hasn't been the case since around 2014 or 2015 and that was majorly because our defensive systems were breaking down and letting him get isolated. He's probably only had 5 - 10 clangers where his opposite ran over the top of him so that has been exaggerated (probably by me at the time).

If you have a poor system on either flank, even the best centres are going to get caught out by their opposite numbers from time to time.

Just look at how much better Joey Leilua looked this season without Austin next to him.

Northern Raider wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:34 am Just be careful with the Missed Tackles stats. A desparate cover defending effort on an umarked winger diving into the corner counts as a Missed Tackle on the stat sheet. Assisting in a tackle on a player that has barged over the guy next to you for a try also counts as a Missed Tackle. I've learnt this from monitoring live stats during a game.

Also seen plenty of other anomalies e.g. stop a player with a low tackle and if you drop off when your team mates clean him up it also counts. Since then I've not used Missed Tackle counts as much to assess a players defensive abilities. In reality nothing beats the eye test.

The Rickman wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:38 am

Northern Raider wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:34 am Just be careful with the Missed Tackles stats. A desparate cover defending effort on an umarked winger diving into the corner counts as a Missed Tackle on the stat sheet. Assisting in a tackle on a player that has barged over the guy next to you for a try also counts as a Missed Tackle. I've learnt this from monitoring live stats during a game.

Also seen plenty of other anomalies e.g. stop a player with a low tackle and if you drop off when your team mates clean him up it also counts. Since then I've not used Missed Tackle counts as much to assess a players defensive abilities. In reality nothing beats the eye test.

That's a very good point too. I don't think Williams registered a missed tackled for that second-rower who he completely failed to mark up on in the Roosters game who ran into a yawning hole.

BadnMean wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:46 am

The Rickman wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:38 am

Northern Raider wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:34 am Just be careful with the Missed Tackles stats. A desparate cover defending effort on an umarked winger diving into the corner counts as a Missed Tackle on the stat sheet. Assisting in a tackle on a player that has barged over the guy next to you for a try also counts as a Missed Tackle. I've learnt this from monitoring live stats during a game.

Also seen plenty of other anomalies e.g. stop a player with a low tackle and if you drop off when your team mates clean him up it also counts. Since then I've not used Missed Tackle counts as much to assess a players defensive abilities. In reality nothing beats the eye test.

That's a very good point too. I don't think Williams registered a missed tackled for that second-rower who he completely failed to mark up on in the Roosters game who ran into a yawning hole.

No tackle to speak of. But that goes as a try cause/LB cause yes?

BadnMean wrote: ↑May 17, 2019, 11:00 am I think Croker has made a marked improvement in his contact this year. I've seen him nail quite a few blokes with ball and all body shots and really put the shoulder into a few others. Looks clear that as captain he's worked and is trying his best to be part of this new defensive mindset.

He'll never be the best defensive centre in the comp but last week aside (where be bounced off one of those attempted big shots) I thought this was perhaps the most impressive defensive year I've seen him have on the eye test.