Raiders player signing speculation 2019

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thedevilingreen
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by thedevilingreen »

Danaman137 wrote:Ridiculous. De Belin (allegedly) rapes a woman and the dragons get his entire salary in cap relief, when Rapana dislocates his shoulder representing his country we get half (or less) of his... I know it’s not the dragons fault, but he is a member of their club and represents them at all times while he in under contract. I cannot believe how the NRL is run.


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Yep I'm actually really pissed off about this. The NRL continually makes these stupid decisions that seem to only benefit the big teams. I bet if we had asked for cap relief when they stood down Jack (you know after he was charged and the NRL quickly decided he shouldn't be allowed to play) they would still be laughing at us. Bet if De Belin played for us or say the titans he'd already be cooling his heels on the sideline.

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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Botman »

when put that way it does seem absolutely **** obscene.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Sid »

Pigman or someone might know, I doubt they have any kind of salary cap relief like this in professional sports that have salary caps?
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Johno »

Im losing faith in this game, its like a partner you want to walk away from but keep sticking around.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by LimeGreenMachine »

thedevilingreen wrote: February 26, 2019, 12:07 pm
Danaman137 wrote:Ridiculous. De Belin (allegedly) rapes a woman and the dragons get his entire salary in cap relief, when Rapana dislocates his shoulder representing his country we get half (or less) of his... I know it’s not the dragons fault, but he is a member of their club and represents them at all times while he in under contract. I cannot believe how the NRL is run.


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Yep I'm actually really pissed off about this. The NRL continually makes these stupid decisions that seem to only benefit the big teams. I bet if we had asked for cap relief when they stood down Jack (you know after he was charged and the NRL quickly decided he shouldn't be allowed to play) they would still be laughing at us. Bet if De Belin played for us or say the titans he'd already be cooling his heels on the sideline.

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Bad comparison with Jack. Jack didn't get stood down until he pleaded guilty. If what they suggest was implemented when Jack was 1st charged he wouldn't have played at all last year.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by edwahu »

But if you follow the logic of what is been proposed here we should get dispensation for the period of the suspension if that scenario occurs again. The De-belin cases are cut and dried that the player would be sacked so the cap relief is automatic. In the Wighton example, if you want to be consistent in not punishing the club and fans for something the player does, then you would have to allow for relief as well.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by zim »

Clubs should not be compensated for players acting up. Too bad if it causes them grief.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by El_Capitano »

How about if while the presumption of innocence is in effect, but for good optics you have to stand player down (I.e DeBelin) you can apply for dispensation and get it, BUT if the player is found guilty they lose the cap dispensation and have to get cap compliant again (shed players) this way it’s on the player/club to judge likelihood of conviction and decide if they want to roll the dice on their players good community standing?


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How soon IS now?
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by zim »

If you've cast enough doubt to be charged by police too bad. You and the club just have to wear it.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Matt »

El_Capitano wrote: February 26, 2019, 1:34 pm How about if while the presumption of innocence is in effect, but for good optics you have to stand player down (I.e DeBelin) you can apply for dispensation and get it, BUT if the player is found guilty they lose the cap dispensation and have to get cap compliant again (shed players) this way it’s on the player/club to judge likelihood of conviction Image and decide if they want to roll the dice on their players good community standing?


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I like this concept
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by thedevilingreen »

zim wrote:If you've cast enough doubt to be charged by police too bad. You and the club just have to wear it.
I'm with you on that one Zim.

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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Danaman137 »

LimeGreenMachine wrote:
thedevilingreen wrote: February 26, 2019, 12:07 pm
Danaman137 wrote:Ridiculous. De Belin (allegedly) rapes a woman and the dragons get his entire salary in cap relief, when Rapana dislocates his shoulder representing his country we get half (or less) of his... I know it’s not the dragons fault, but he is a member of their club and represents them at all times while he in under contract. I cannot believe how the NRL is run.


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Yep I'm actually really pissed off about this. The NRL continually makes these stupid decisions that seem to only benefit the big teams. I bet if we had asked for cap relief when they stood down Jack (you know after he was charged and the NRL quickly decided he shouldn't be allowed to play) they would still be laughing at us. Bet if De Belin played for us or say the titans he'd already be cooling his heels on the sideline.

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Bad comparison with Jack. Jack didn't get stood down until he pleaded guilty. If what they suggest was implemented when Jack was 1st charged he wouldn't have played at all last year.
As crappy as that would have been as a Raiders fan, if that was the consistent rule for everyone I would have gladly accepted it.


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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Danaman137 »

Danaman137 wrote:Ridiculous. De Belin (allegedly) rapes a woman and the dragons get his entire salary in cap relief, when Rapana dislocates his shoulder representing his country we get half (or less) of his... I know it’s not the dragons fault, but he is a member of their club and represents them at all times while he in under contract. I cannot believe how the NRL is run.


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https://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/ ... 510ct.html

So this article was just written in the CT... Essentially my exact post above, but elaborated on a bit. It seems this writer has had a read of this thread and reproduced my argument. I may be completely wrong but if I’m not, some credit would be nice Image.



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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Rick »

This rule is a joke.

The NRL Encourage clubs to look after their own house and behaviour within it but then on the other hand this rule just encourages clubs to sign the dregs of the Rugby League world and roll the dice on them knowing if they stuff up they will be compensated.


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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Raidersteve »

Matt wrote: February 26, 2019, 1:38 pm
El_Capitano wrote: February 26, 2019, 1:34 pm How about if while the presumption of innocence is in effect, but for good optics you have to stand player down (I.e DeBelin) you can apply for dispensation and get it, BUT if the player is found guilty they lose the cap dispensation and have to get cap compliant again (shed players) this way it’s on the player/club to judge likelihood of conviction Image and decide if they want to roll the dice on their players good community standing?



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I like this concept
The only problem I see with this is the club could use the compensation to get a star player and then offload someone not in their plans to get under the cap.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by FROG »

I don't get all the NRL hate with this one. It is in no way comparable to Jack.

The fact is that until he is found guilty he has a right to go about earning a living just as any other citizen in this country. The NRL is taking initiative, given the potential PR damage to stand down the player until a decision has been found. I think this is completely reasonable. We were allowed to play Jack until he pleaded guilty which is also fair. I don't get what you all don't get
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by thedevilingreen »

FROG wrote:I don't get all the NRL hate with this one. It is in no way comparable to Jack.

The fact is that until he is found guilty he has a right to go about earning a living just as any other citizen in this country. The NRL is taking initiative, given the potential PR damage to stand down the player until a decision has been found. I think this is completely reasonable. We were allowed to play Jack until he pleaded guilty which is also fair. I don't get what you all don't get
Raiders management: Hi NRL one of our players is injured and will be out for possibly the entire season can we have some salary cap relief so we can sign a replacement player.
NRL: Sure but you only get 1/4 of that players salary and if you use it the injured player can't come back any sooner
St George management: Hi NRL we have a player who can't keep his **** out of places it shouldn't be can we possibly have cap relief
NRL: Sure we will give said players full pay as compensation so you can sign a player of similar ability we couldn't possibly punish you or your fans... Don't worry Manly we got you too for that player who likes to hit his missus

We all caught up now on the NRL hate


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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by greeneyed »

FROG wrote: February 26, 2019, 5:44 pm I don't get all the NRL hate with this one. It is in no way comparable to Jack.

The fact is that until he is found guilty he has a right to go about earning a living just as any other citizen in this country. The NRL is taking initiative, given the potential PR damage to stand down the player until a decision has been found. I think this is completely reasonable. We were allowed to play Jack until he pleaded guilty which is also fair. I don't get what you all don't get
That's not the point being made, it has nothing to do with Jack Wighton.

The concern is that the NRL appears to be planning to give more salary to clubs who have players stood down while facing criminal charges (ie the full amount of that players' salary) than for situations where clubs who lose players to injury while playing internationals (a fraction of that players' salary).

It also actually encourages clubs to pick up players who've been sacked by a club for off field incidents... as they know that if they get into trouble again, they have instant and full salary cap relief.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by FROG »

The fraction of the players salary (for injuries) is meant to be proportionate to the time he is off the field. This was not a rule that was designed for the raiders. It just so happened that our club is the first to apply for it. I think it's a fair outcome. One of your players gets injured playing rep footy, you can't sign another rep level player but they'll give you some $ to play with to help cover the loss. Seems fair and reasonable to me.

JDB s situation is completely different. As I mentioned above, he has pleaded not guilty and at this point in time has not been convicted. He has a right to earn an income just like anyone else and has a binding contract to play football. If the code choses for the player to be made unavailable for charges that are not yet proven then I feel it's fair the club receive salary cap dispensation. I appreciate the sentiment that it shouldn't be for the whole salary but don't think it's helpful to make comparisons with other salary cap relief scenarios. And there is absolutely no basis to somehow suggest that this demonstrates bias against the raiders. It's this victim mentality that really grates me.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by greeneyed »

I think it is helpful to compare the two situations.

In one case, there's a player injured doing his best to promote the code of rugby league... he's unavailable for his club as a result of injury suffered while doing so. But the NRL has decided that some mere fraction of his salary should be translated to salary cap relief. And only weeks during the season, rather than the off season, are "counted". This is salary cap relief when you're not having salary cap relief.

Frankly, I have little doubt that if the Roosters was the club that instigated that salary cap relief rule... it would not have the serious deficiencies that it does. And I think Raiders fans are more than entitled to express the view that the rule put in place is completely inadequate.

In the other case, the NRL is contemplating giving full cap relief for a "Jack de Belin". In cases where the code is being brought into disrepute. And which club was leading the charge for this? The Roosters... one club that has benefited significantly from signing "bad boys". This isn't about players not being paid while stood down... it is about giving salary cap relief to clubs that have players bringing the code into disrepute. I fail to see why they should be given a free pass for generating that culture at their club.

We shall see what happens... and perhaps the NRL won't give full cap relief in the latter case. But if they do what has been mooted, the NRL rules will be giving the wrong incentives to clubs in both situations.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

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FROG wrote: February 26, 2019, 7:32 pm The fraction of the players salary (for injuries) is meant to be proportionate to the time he is off the field. This was not a rule that was designed for the raiders. It just so happened that our club is the first to apply for it. I think it's a fair outcome. One of your players gets injured playing rep footy, you can't sign another rep level player but they'll give you some $ to play with to help cover the loss. Seems fair and reasonable to me.

JDB s situation is completely different. As I mentioned above, he has pleaded not guilty and at this point in time has not been convicted. He has a right to earn an income just like anyone else and has a binding contract to play football. If the code choses for the player to be made unavailable for charges that are not yet proven then I feel it's fair the club receive salary cap dispensation. I appreciate the sentiment that it shouldn't be for the whole salary but don't think it's helpful to make comparisons with other salary cap relief scenarios. And there is absolutely no basis to somehow suggest that this demonstrates bias against the raiders. It's this victim mentality that really grates me.
I am VERY vocal about victim mentality plaguing the club...but this aint it, chief.
Club's are at a competitive advantage to have a player accused of rape over those injured promoting the code... that's **** miserable and poorly thought policy by any measure.

Nothing about this club. Just bad policy.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by gerg »

It's one of the most ridiculous suggestions the NRL has ever come up with.
This off season has clearly pissed off the NRL. So much so they are threatening to throw the book at any poor player behaviour. Only weeks after the NRL CEO has expressed 'there'll be no more shenanigans' they trot out this.

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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by edwahu »

Sounds like the Sharks will cop a 500k cap penalty but may be able spread it over multiple years
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Ruben Daley »

FROG wrote: February 26, 2019, 7:32 pm The fraction of the players salary (for injuries) is meant to be proportionate to the time he is off the field.
But it doesn’t work like that. If Hodgson gets injured playing for England and misses sixteen weeks (or even all season), we get $350,000 to replace our highest-paid player in arguably the most important position. That’s barely above the average wage and nowhere near enough to entice a starting hooker.

Meanwhile, the Dragons can replace De Belin like for like. Nothing stopping them from signing Jake Trjobevic, for example.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Ruben Daley »

edwahu wrote: February 26, 2019, 8:58 pm Sounds like the Sharks will cop a 500k cap penalty but may be able spread it over multiple years
They’ll probably be allowed to backdate it. “We were way under the $9M cap in 1993.”
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Terrycampese »

FROG wrote: February 26, 2019, 7:32 pm The fraction of the players salary (for injuries) is meant to be proportionate to the time he is off the field. This was not a rule that was designed for the raiders. It just so happened that our club is the first to apply for it. I think it's a fair outcome. One of your players gets injured playing rep footy, you can't sign another rep level player but they'll give you some $ to play with to help cover the loss. Seems fair and reasonable to me.

JDB s situation is completely different. As I mentioned above, he has pleaded not guilty and at this point in time has not been convicted. He has a right to earn an income just like anyone else and has a binding contract to play football. If the code choses for the player to be made unavailable for charges that are not yet proven then I feel it's fair the club receive salary cap dispensation. I appreciate the sentiment that it shouldn't be for the whole salary but don't think it's helpful to make comparisons with other salary cap relief scenarios. And there is absolutely no basis to somehow suggest that this demonstrates bias against the raiders. It's this victim mentality that really grates me.
Occasional reader, first time poster.

Just feel the need to interject on the matter of whether it's fair for JDB to be suspended.

I've seen a lot of people online commenting on JDBs "right" to work until he is convicted.

It doesnt seem like any of the people saying this are experts in employment law... nor am I, but my understanding is very different from most of the comments.

A person charged with such serious offences, as I understand, could certainly be stood down without pay by their employer.

As far as I know, he would be able to seek damages IF he were acquitted AND his employer was negligent or malicious in suspending him. That certainly would not be the case here given the facts surrounding th matter. The onus should undoubtedly be on the dragons to, at the least, suspend him with pay and cop the dent in their cap.

Player discipline is a responsibility of a club and, if you want to be really sympathetic, you could liken the incident to a freak injury which sees many players out of action without relief. But given the information made public so far, the dragons should have taken responsibility until further notice... not held the NRL to ransom awaiting a payout.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

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edwahu wrote: February 26, 2019, 8:58 pm Sounds like the Sharks will cop a 500k cap penalty but may be able spread it over multiple years
The Sharks are a stain on the game.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Beejay »

Ruben Daley wrote: February 26, 2019, 9:48 pm
FROG wrote: February 26, 2019, 7:32 pm The fraction of the players salary (for injuries) is meant to be proportionate to the time he is off the field.
But it doesn’t work like that. If Hodgson gets injured playing for England and misses sixteen weeks (or even all season), we get $350,000 to replace our highest-paid player in arguably the most important position. That’s barely above the average wage and nowhere near enough to entice a starting hooker.

Meanwhile, the Dragons can replace De Belin like for like. Nothing stopping them from signing Jake Trjobevic, for example.
Yes but players getting injured is a clearly defined risk in professional sport. The fact they are not directly playing for the club that pays them the 'most', but are playing for their Country or State, is the part that was unfair on clubs.
Standing down a player who is pleading not guilty is completely different.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by edwahu »

Terrycampese wrote: February 26, 2019, 10:00 pm
FROG wrote: February 26, 2019, 7:32 pm The fraction of the players salary (for injuries) is meant to be proportionate to the time he is off the field. This was not a rule that was designed for the raiders. It just so happened that our club is the first to apply for it. I think it's a fair outcome. One of your players gets injured playing rep footy, you can't sign another rep level player but they'll give you some $ to play with to help cover the loss. Seems fair and reasonable to me.

JDB s situation is completely different. As I mentioned above, he has pleaded not guilty and at this point in time has not been convicted. He has a right to earn an income just like anyone else and has a binding contract to play football. If the code choses for the player to be made unavailable for charges that are not yet proven then I feel it's fair the club receive salary cap dispensation. I appreciate the sentiment that it shouldn't be for the whole salary but don't think it's helpful to make comparisons with other salary cap relief scenarios. And there is absolutely no basis to somehow suggest that this demonstrates bias against the raiders. It's this victim mentality that really grates me.
Occasional reader, first time poster.

Just feel the need to interject on the matter of whether it's fair for JDB to be suspended.

I've seen a lot of people online commenting on JDBs "right" to work until he is convicted.

It doesnt seem like any of the people saying this are experts in employment law... nor am I, but my understanding is very different from most of the comments.

A person charged with such serious offences, as I understand, could certainly be stood down without pay by their employer.

As far as I know, he would be able to seek damages IF he were acquitted AND his employer was negligent or malicious in suspending him. That certainly would not be the case here given the facts surrounding th matter. The onus should undoubtedly be on the dragons to, at the least, suspend him with pay and cop the dent in their cap.

Player discipline is a responsibility of a club and, if you want to be really sympathetic, you could liken the incident to a freak injury which sees many players out of action without relief. But given the information made public so far, the dragons should have taken responsibility until further notice... not held the NRL to ransom awaiting a payout.
I think generally you are stood down with pay or if senior enough the company gives you a big enough deal to resign.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Matt »

Terrycampese wrote: February 26, 2019, 10:00 pm
FROG wrote: February 26, 2019, 7:32 pm The fraction of the players salary (for injuries) is meant to be proportionate to the time he is off the field. This was not a rule that was designed for the raiders. It just so happened that our club is the first to apply for it. I think it's a fair outcome. One of your players gets injured playing rep footy, you can't sign another rep level player but they'll give you some $ to play with to help cover the loss. Seems fair and reasonable to me.

JDB s situation is completely different. As I mentioned above, he has pleaded not guilty and at this point in time has not been convicted. He has a right to earn an income just like anyone else and has a binding contract to play football. If the code choses for the player to be made unavailable for charges that are not yet proven then I feel it's fair the club receive salary cap dispensation. I appreciate the sentiment that it shouldn't be for the whole salary but don't think it's helpful to make comparisons with other salary cap relief scenarios. And there is absolutely no basis to somehow suggest that this demonstrates bias against the raiders. It's this victim mentality that really grates me.
Occasional reader, first time poster.

Just feel the need to interject on the matter of whether it's fair for JDB to be suspended.

I've seen a lot of people online commenting on JDBs "right" to work until he is convicted.

It doesnt seem like any of the people saying this are experts in employment law... nor am I, but my understanding is very different from most of the comments.

A person charged with such serious offences, as I understand, could certainly be stood down without pay by their employer.

As far as I know, he would be able to seek damages IF he were acquitted AND his employer was negligent or malicious in suspending him. That certainly would not be the case here given the facts surrounding th matter. The onus should undoubtedly be on the dragons to, at the least, suspend him with pay and cop the dent in their cap.

Player discipline is a responsibility of a club and, if you want to be really sympathetic, you could liken the incident to a freak injury which sees many players out of action without relief. But given the information made public so far, the dragons should have taken responsibility until further notice... not held the NRL to ransom awaiting a payout.
:welcome:

Ill add, that every NRL player signs a contract that says something along the lines of, they wont bring the game into disrepute. Innocent or guilty, this story could easily be argued as bringing the game into disrepute. So, standing him down at least gives the NRL the perception of not accepting this behavior. Its what happens next that's tricky.

There is the Brett Stewart precedent.... messy messy messy. And this is what the argument against standing him down is.

There is the Wighton precedent too, however, he pleaded guilty. Thus different story.

So, Im in the 'With or without pay' camp. As its the Dragons that actually pay him, if the NRL stands him down, should Dragons still foot the bill? With the innocent until proven guilty, Id say cap dispensation should be allowed. However, only for the amount accrued during the time he is stood down (now til end of April?). If that allows Dragons to hire a min wage player, so be it. If not, bad luck, at least you saved X dollars on the cap that yr.

Should he be fund guilty, contracts are torn up, Dragons are only out what they paid him til the point of standing down. Meaning, they now have whatever is left on JDBs contract, plus the dispensation, to buy a new player.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Beejay »

Matt wrote: February 27, 2019, 10:57 am
As its the Dragons that actually pay him, if the NRL stands him down, should Dragons still foot the bill? With the innocent until proven guilty, Id say cap dispensation should be allowed. However, only for the amount accrued during the time he is stood down (now til end of April?).
I agree with your conclusion Matt. However, the reality is if he continues to plead 'not guilty' and it goes to trial, it won't be finished in April. He will be gone for the entire season, and possibly part of 2020.
So if you agree with cap dispensation of his contract for the "amount accrued during time he is stood down", then it's going to be his entire contract value for the year.
Which i am fine with, and others are outraged by.
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by gerg »

There has to be some risk for clubs signing pieces of **** or there is no disincentive to signing them, and nothing will change.

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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by Matt »

Beejay wrote: February 27, 2019, 11:34 am
Matt wrote: February 27, 2019, 10:57 am
As its the Dragons that actually pay him, if the NRL stands him down, should Dragons still foot the bill? With the innocent until proven guilty, Id say cap dispensation should be allowed. However, only for the amount accrued during the time he is stood down (now til end of April?).
I agree with your conclusion Matt. However, the reality is if he continues to plead 'not guilty' and it goes to trial, it won't be finished in April. He will be gone for the entire season, and possibly part of 2020.
So if you agree with cap dispensation of his contract for the "amount accrued during time he is stood down", then it's going to be his entire contract value for the year.
Which i am fine with, and others are outraged by.
So be it.
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greeneyed
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Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by greeneyed »

Beejay wrote:
Matt wrote: February 27, 2019, 10:57 am
As its the Dragons that actually pay him, if the NRL stands him down, should Dragons still foot the bill? With the innocent until proven guilty, Id say cap dispensation should be allowed. However, only for the amount accrued during the time he is stood down (now til end of April?).
I agree with your conclusion Matt. However, the reality is if he continues to plead 'not guilty' and it goes to trial, it won't be finished in April. He will be gone for the entire season, and possibly part of 2020.
So if you agree with cap dispensation of his contract for the "amount accrued during time he is stood down", then it's going to be his entire contract value for the year.
Which i am fine with, and others are outraged by.
I’m mostly unhappy with the proposal because it gives more generous cap relief in the case of players stood down on serious charges than for players injured while playing rep football... when the latter players are clearly doing something to promote the code in a positive light.

The prospective incentives for clubs, are the wrong way around. If there’s a case for full cap relief, it is most clear in the case of injured rep players. In the other case, there’s a case for clubs wearing at least part of the penalty IMO. That’s because clubs need incentives not to create the right culture including through their recruitment decisions.


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edwahu

Re: Raiders player signing speculation 2019

Post by edwahu »

The problem is you can't really say that there is something wrong with the club culture until there is a verdict.
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