Cap management

[Northern Raider]

Plenty of talk about cap management so here a very rudimentary breakdown of salary by position adding up to $9.6m

No. Position Salary
1 Fullback $700,000
2 Wing $300,000
3 Centre $400,000
4 Centre $400,000
5 Winger $300,000
6 Half $700,000
7 Half $1,000,000
8 Middle $400,000
9 Hooker $800,000
10 Middle $400,000
11 Edge $500,000
12 Edge $500,000
13 Middle $400,000
14 Hooker/Half $250,000
15 Middle $200,000
16 Middle $200,000
17 Edge $250,000
18 Half $250,000
19 Half $150,000
20 Fullback $200,000
21 Hooker $150,000
22 Wing/Centre $150,000
23 Wing/Centre $150,000
24 Wing/Centre $100,000
25 Wing/Centre $100,000
26 Middle $150,000
27 Middle $100,000
28 Middle $100,000
29 Edge $200,000
30 Edge $100,000

TOTAL $9,600,000

I've listed the Top 17 then for the next 13 I've effectively listed a backup for every starting position. This is averaging out of course i.e. one starting edge forward could be on $600k and another on $400k. These are all cap values of course.

When you put them into a spreadsheet it can be fun juggling the numbers. Especially when you start putting in the numbers some people here believe that a few of our players are getting paid. Of course we aren't paying our 6,7 and 14 anywhere near $1.95m combined.

[edwahu]

Not sure if that's an example of us but that's big overs for a well managed cap for players 15-30. Despite all the sombrero talk when you actually look at clubs like the Roosters or Broncos they carry very top heavy squads and 15-30 are probably on 120k average with most on minimum wage. That plus probably 500k in TPA is why they can carry multiple million dollar players.

Middles are a bit undervalued, I think you should be putting at least 1.8m into your starting middles if you want to compete.

IMO our overs are on the three-quarters, which would be close to 2m for us, Wighton (relative to performance) and players 15-30.

[Seiffert82]

Goes to show how hard it is to juggle the cap. Especially when you have young minimum wage players that come through and make an impact one year and demand an upgrade to extend their contract.

That's why the 3rd party deal fiasco is such a terrible thing for the comp.

[Northern Raider]

Not sure if that's an example of us but that's huge overs for a well managed cap for players 15-30. I would say at a club like the Roosters 15-30 are on 100k average and most on minimum wage. That plus probably 500k in TPA is why they can carry multiple million dollar players.

Middles are a bit undervalued, I think you should be putting at least 1.8m into your starting middles.

IMO our overs are on the three-quarters, Wighton (relative to performance) and players 15-30.

This is guesstimating a typical NRL roster and not a representation of the Raiders.

[greeneyed]

The minimum salary for 2019 is $105k.

I'd be stunned if any of the Roosters top 17 was on minimum... but maybe I should be stunned...

[Northern Raider]

Goes to show how hard it is to juggle the cap. Especially when you have young minimum wage players that come through and make an impact one year and demand an upgrade to extend their contract.

That's why the 3rd party deal fiasco is such a terrible thing for the comp.

Especially when you names of Broncos players in the postions and put some numbers against them.

[edwahu]

The minimum salary for 2019 is $105k.

I'd be stunned if any of the Roosters top 17 was on minimum... but maybe I should be stunned...

I think it would be more 150k average for players 16 and 17, someone like Tetavano or Matterson, and then you have Radley who would've been minimum last year.

This year you still have that sort of player at 17 then drop straight off to players with no first grade experience.

[Northern Raider]

The minimum salary for 2019 is $105k.

I'd be stunned if any of the Roosters top 17 was on minimum... but maybe I should be stunned...

I think it would be more 150k average for players 16 and 17, someone like Tetavano or Matterson, and then you have Radley who would've been minimum last year.

This year you still have that sort of player at 17 then drop straight off to players with no first grade experience.

Victor Radley recently signed a 5 year extension. Doubt very much thats anywhere near minimum.

[edwahu]

The minimum salary for 2019 is $105k.

I'd be stunned if any of the Roosters top 17 was on minimum... but maybe I should be stunned...

I think it would be more 150k average for players 16 and 17, someone like Tetavano or Matterson, and then you have Radley who would've been minimum last year.

This year you still have that sort of player at 17 then drop straight off to players with no first grade experience.

Victor Radley recently signed a 5 year extension. Doubt very much thats anywhere near minimum.

Last year. This year he is firmly in the top 13 and there will be another Radley come through.

[Northern Raider]

The minimum salary for 2019 is $105k.

I'd be stunned if any of the Roosters top 17 was on minimum... but maybe I should be stunned...

I think it would be more 150k average for players 16 and 17, someone like Tetavano or Matterson, and then you have Radley who would've been minimum last year.

This year you still have that sort of player at 17 then drop straight off to players with no first grade experience.

Victor Radley recently signed a 5 year extension. Doubt very much thats anywhere near minimum.

Last year. This year he is firmly in the top 13 and there will be another Radley come through.

So upgrading his contract plus adding Crichton at $1m. I can't see how that is offset by Matterson and Napa leaving.

[edwahu]

They lost Fergo as well and picked up Hall and Morris. I doubt Radley would've had a big upgrade, he re-signed before his best form. Maybe 300k a year, which is great value. Same goes for players like Mitchell and Manu who re-signed before their best form.

If you look at the Roosters current squad it's actually pretty easy to see how they are under the cap, especially with a few extra hundred K in TPA and frontloading/backloading which we don't seem to do. What's hard to understand is how we are over it. I had a go at estimating at how the two caps might look.

[Northern Raider]

They are under the cap simply because a lot of salaries are supplemented by 3rd party deals.

[edwahu]

They are under the cap simply because a lot of salaries are supplemented by 3rd party deals.

They have under 300k in TPA, we probably have 50-100k. Its a factor but not as big as us overpaying players comparatively. I'd say maybe 4 or 5 of our players are producing good value vs most of the Roosters squad.

[Dusty]

They also signed Shaq Mitchell from Wyong local reserve Grade!?!? He was a bench player for that team. Another way of paying Latrell more I guess


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[gerg]

They are under the cap simply because a lot of salaries are supplemented by 3rd party deals.

They have under 300k in TPA, we probably have 50-100k. Its a factor but not as big as us overpaying players comparatively. I'd say maybe 4 or 5 of our players are producing good value vs most of the Roosters squad.

Nothing a few rounds of golf can't fix.

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[BigPapa]

They are under the cap simply because a lot of salaries are supplemented by 3rd party deals.

They have under 300k in TPA, we probably have 50-100k. Its a factor but not as big as us overpaying players comparatively. I'd say maybe 4 or 5 of our players are producing good value vs most of the Roosters squad.

There is no way in the world the Roosters have under 300k available for TPA's surely you're not that dumb.

[edwahu]

They are under the cap simply because a lot of salaries are supplemented by 3rd party deals.

They have under 300k in TPA, we probably have 50-100k. Its a factor but not as big as us overpaying players comparatively. I'd say maybe 4 or 5 of our players are producing good value vs most of the Roosters squad.

There is no way in the world the Roosters have under 300k available for TPA's surely you're not that dumb.

The official numbers were published earlier this year and Roosters were not among the top squads and at most around 300k. I don't state things like that as fact without a source, what's dumb is to assume people are wrong and not spending 10 seconds to check.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/08/30/ret ... e-of-tpas/

If you mean they cheat the cap and have illegal TPAs not registered with the NRL, then we have the same option but if you look at their squad it's not really required.

[BJ]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. That article was never substantiated with the official 3rd party values from the NRL.

Despite promises that the official and 100% accurate data would be available it wasn’t ultimately released by the NRL for scrutiny. A few NRL based press releases to try and discredit the third party issue, raised more than a few eyebrows in clubland.

I have a good mate at another NRL club (some of my posts of a few years ago prove this) but he was pissed off with me for giving out information, so I don’t put the details in anymore.

[Botman]

yeah its an interesting experiment... you want a fun one, try and balance the Raiders cap given what you think they'd earn.

You can easily see how we're pressed against the cap even though we shouldnt be. It's a tough gig. I'd love to see someone else come in a remove the three stooges from the process immediately. Maybe it doesnt change, but at this point there is not much to lose

[edwahu]

The numbers are sourced from the NRL, they are as good as official for mine, unless Brad Walter is outright lying. I am sure the Roosters benefit from some of the non private sector TPAs and maybe the numbers have gone up for them, but even worst case they are not getting close to the millions in advantage like some seem to think. If anything their advantage would have dropped with the marquee allowance scrapped.

Like I said though, if you look at the Roosters squad there is really no need for a huge number of TPAs. It contributes to our problems but no way is it the major one.

[Botman]

The roosters absolutely benefit from TPA's, what ever the official records say, im not buying it... but you know what? They benefit WAAAAAAAAAAY more by being a good, well run, forward thinking organisation who manages its roster extremely well

Blake Ferguson is a good and bad example... bad because **** them... but good they shell out nothing to buy low, he plays out of his skin and then they let him walk. They sacked Pearce not because they found his conduct so disagreeable, but because they could give Keary a little bit on top and take advantage of the Cronk situation. Premiership ensued.

They fob off guys like Kane Evans who they know arent as good as they look, to desperate clubs who take them off their hands... they identify talent early and sign them to under-market deals, like they signed Mitchell and Manu at the start of 2018... they were good, but they werent SUPERSTARS and now they have Mitchell and Manu, two of the best young centres in the game for salaries that are almost certainly substancially lower than ours.

They arent sentimental, the moment the club feels like Cordner isnt all that and a bag of chips, they'll move his contract to some club chasing a name. They INVEST in juniors. Yes they dont have TRUE juniors the way we might but they scout well, put guys in their system and they develop them. They've got more kids from their system in their 17 than we do.

The TPA's matter, they really do. LORD knows their geographical location matters, and their profile helps considerably. But if you swap Politis, Robinson and Hartigan for DFJ, Stuart and Mulholland, we'd beat them like a **** drum.

[BJ]

The numbers are sourced from the NRL, they are as good as official for mine, unless Brad Walter is outright lying. I am sure the Roosters benefit from some of the non private sector TPAs and maybe the numbers have gone up for them, but even worst case they are not getting close to the millions in advantage like some seem to think.

Like I said though, if you look at the Roosters squad there is really no need for a huge number of TPAs. It contributes to our problems but no way is it the major one.

Happy for you to believe it, it’s not like Brad Walter has provided us with other NRL media releases and articles all year that have ultimately proven to be false.

[edwahu]

Yep, that's exactly what I am getting at. I was all aboard the TPA bandwagon until I actually sat down and looked at how they have managed their squad and it's structure, they have some big advantages but have also made a lot of great decisions.

TPAs and I'd say at times outright cap cheating are probably costing us a lot more in the market when it comes to the second tier of clubs like the Sharks or Penrith, but even then it's not what's really costing us. We can't even convince an NRL player to sign anymore.

[edwahu]

The numbers are sourced from the NRL, they are as good as official for mine, unless Brad Walter is outright lying. I am sure the Roosters benefit from some of the non private sector TPAs and maybe the numbers have gone up for them, but even worst case they are not getting close to the millions in advantage like some seem to think.

Like I said though, if you look at the Roosters squad there is really no need for a huge number of TPAs. It contributes to our problems but no way is it the major one.

Happy for you to believe it, it’s not like Brad Walter has provided us with other NRL media releases and articles all year that have ultimately proven to be false.

So how much do you think the Roosters have in TPAs and who is earning what in their squad?

[julian87]

Just fwiw wingers would definitely get paid more than centre these days in general and fair enough too.

[BJ]

The numbers are sourced from the NRL, they are as good as official for mine, unless Brad Walter is outright lying. I am sure the Roosters benefit from some of the non private sector TPAs and maybe the numbers have gone up for them, but even worst case they are not getting close to the millions in advantage like some seem to think.

Like I said though, if you look at the Roosters squad there is really no need for a huge number of TPAs. It contributes to our problems but no way is it the major one.

Happy for you to believe it, it’s not like Brad Walter has provided us with other NRL media releases and articles all year that have ultimately proven to be false.

So how much do you think the Roosters have in TPAs and who is earning what in their squad?

I’ve got no idea what the Roosters are on.

I’m just continuing to say what I heard a long time ago (and wrote at the time) that this report was not accurate and the NRL didn’t end up releasing the full data as they originally promised.

I don’t know if some third party arrangements were deemed Commercial in Confidence (as some people speculated), the published data didn’t accurately cover the full dollar amounts or the Players Union jumped in????

I’m just saying that I would take this article with a very large grain of salt and there’s a reason why it didn’t make the wide stream rugby league media or publication as a formal NRL press release through the executive.

I believe Cronk alone got $300k third party.

[greeneyed]

They are under the cap simply because a lot of salaries are supplemented by 3rd party deals.

They have under 300k in TPA, we probably have 50-100k. Its a factor but not as big as us overpaying players comparatively. I'd say maybe 4 or 5 of our players are producing good value vs most of the Roosters squad.

There is no way in the world the Roosters have under 300k available for TPA's surely you're not that dumb.

The official numbers were published earlier this year and Roosters were not among the top squads and at most around 300k. I don't state things like that as fact without a source, what's dumb is to assume people are wrong and not spending 10 seconds to check.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/08/30/ret ... e-of-tpas/

If you mean they cheat the cap and have illegal TPAs not registered with the NRL, then we have the same option but if you look at their squad it's not really required.

The question is... why have these numbers never been published by the NRL? We were supposed to have this published annually. It’s never happened. A few articles like that one until the media pressure on TPAs dispersed... and back to the same old cover ups from the NRL. Perhaps Todd Greenberg and a Peter Beattie can get round to explaining at some stage?

[Botman]

Just fwiw wingers would definitely get paid more than centre these days in general and fair enough too.

Think that's dependant on team.
On an open market Vinuvalu and Addo-Carr would get more than either of the storm centres. But you'd pay WAY more for Lat Mitchell over anything the roosters are flogging off at wing
Croker is undoubtably getting paid more than our wingers, though you'd correctly argue he shouldn't. Whilst the Broncos are paying more for Roberts than their wingers. The Knights just paid top dollar for a great young centre and are cheaping out a wing. The Sharks paid Feki over their centres, they let Bird walk. Though i guess Holmes was the winger until being moved to fullback.
Penrith are interesting, they have resources in both spots, and sacrificed a fullback to make it happen. But their paying big dollars for all 4. The Warriors seem to pay wingers in hopes of moving them to centre.

I dont think you can honestly say one position is valued more than the other in today's NRL.

[edwahu]

The numbers are sourced from the NRL, they are as good as official for mine, unless Brad Walter is outright lying. I am sure the Roosters benefit from some of the non private sector TPAs and maybe the numbers have gone up for them, but even worst case they are not getting close to the millions in advantage like some seem to think.

Like I said though, if you look at the Roosters squad there is really no need for a huge number of TPAs. It contributes to our problems but no way is it the major one.

Happy for you to believe it, it’s not like Brad Walter has provided us with other NRL media releases and articles all year that have ultimately proven to be false.

So how much do you think the Roosters have in TPAs and who is earning what in their squad?

I’ve got no idea what the Roosters are on.

I’m just continuing to say what I heard a long time ago (and wrote at the time) that this report was not accurate and the NRL didn’t end up releasing the full data as they originally promised.

I don’t know if some third party arrangements were deemed Commercial in Confidence (as some people speculated), the published data didn’t accurately cover the full dollar amounts or the Players Union jumped in????

I’m just saying that I would take this article with a very large grain of salt and there’s a reason why it didn’t make the wide stream rugby league media or publication as a formal NRL press release through the executive.

I believe Cronk alone got $300k third party.

Looks like we may find out: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/ ... fd779085bb

Let's see if they are believed even when official.

[Northern Raider]

yeah its an interesting experiment... you want a fun one, try and balance the Raiders cap given what you think they'd earn.

You can easily see how we're pressed against the cap even though we shouldnt be. It's a tough gig. I'd love to see someone else come in a remove the three stooges from the process immediately. Maybe it doesnt change, but at this point there is not much to lose

If Raiders players were on what many think they are on then we'd be $2m over the cap.

[papabear]

The minimum salary for 2019 is $105k.

I'd be stunned if any of the Roosters top 17 was on minimum... but maybe I should be stunned...

"minimum salary" but very good at poker especially when uncle nick is playing

[papabear]

Just fwiw wingers would definitely get paid more than centre these days in general and fair enough too.

Think that's dependant on team.
On an open market Vinuvalu and Addo-Carr would get more than either of the storm centres. But you'd pay WAY more for Lat Mitchell over anything the roosters are flogging off at wing
Croker is undoubtably getting paid more than our wingers, though you'd correctly argue he shouldn't. Whilst the Broncos are paying more for Roberts than their wingers. The Knights just paid top dollar for a great young centre and are cheaping out a wing. The Sharks paid Feki over their centres, they let Bird walk. Though i guess Holmes was the winger until being moved to fullback.
Penrith are interesting, they have resources in both spots, and sacrificed a fullback to make it happen. But their paying big dollars for all 4. The Warriors seem to pay wingers in hopes of moving them to centre.

I dont think you can honestly say one position is valued more than the other in today's NRL.

i am not against wingers being on bigger money

They have a lot of say in who wins a footy match from:-
- starting off sets
- handling high balls kicks etc
- finishing tries
- defensive saves


IMO besides this coming year where we seem a little light in the middle we have for the last 10 years always seemed to spend way to much in the middle. Paying two props say boyd / paulo 600 each when they are only on the field for 30 mins a pop is 1.2m for 60 mins when whitehead plays 80 mins for 500k and tbh is probably more effective in each minute then the impact players.

i believe it was reported by the broncos sister company that roberts took a big pay cut to go to the broncos... .

If you look at our team next year and who is probably on to much cash for how much they effect winning for me it is:-
- sezer - i actually like him as a player but he in my mind is a 300k per year type, no way is he on that much though.
- hodgson - we are probably paying him 800k range for a guy in my mind is a very good player but not an out and out premium player worth 800k.
- croker - again like sezer i like him, he is probably worth 400-500 but I would hazard a guess he might be on a little more then this.

Other then that I think we have shed a lot of the fat in our cap. The problem we face is any club to be successful you either have to have the dodgy broncos / chooks style cap or you have to have a lot of guys playing above their value and I don't see us getting many guys going hugely above their value for us. Though I would love to see it.

[papabear]

They lost Fergo as well and picked up Hall and Morris. I doubt Radley would've had a big upgrade, he re-signed before his best form. Maybe 300k a year, which is great value. Same goes for players like Mitchell and Manu who re-signed before their best form.

If you look at the Roosters current squad it's actually pretty easy to see how they are under the cap, especially with a few extra hundred K in TPA and frontloading/backloading which we don't seem to do. What's hard to understand is how we are over it. I had a go at estimating at how the two caps might look.

luke keary 500k?
ryan hall 300k?
latrell mitchell 400k?
tupou origin winger 300k whilst we have brad abbey at 200k.
JWH was a monster when he signed his last deal yet he signed for 600k?
mitch aubusson who has been with them and very good for them for 50 years 200k? the same as brad abbey?
I didnt even know they picked up brock lamb but that will do more.

Anyone trying to sing the chooks and the broncos are just smart with their money are just insane or naive .

[Ruben Daley]

The roosters absolutely benefit from TPA's, what ever the official records say, im not buying it... but you know what? They benefit WAAAAAAAAAAY more by being a good, well run, forward thinking organisation who manages its roster extremely well

Blake Ferguson is a good and bad example... bad because **** them... but good they shell out nothing to buy low, he plays out of his skin and then they let him walk. They sacked Pearce not because they found his conduct so disagreeable, but because they could give Keary a little bit on top and take advantage of the Cronk situation. Premiership ensued.

They fob off guys like Kane Evans who they know arent as good as they look, to desperate clubs who take them off their hands... they identify talent early and sign them to under-market deals, like they signed Mitchell and Manu at the start of 2018... they were good, but they werent SUPERSTARS and now they have Mitchell and Manu, two of the best young centres in the game for salaries that are almost certainly substancially lower than ours.

They arent sentimental, the moment the club feels like Cordner isnt all that and a bag of chips, they'll move his contract to some club chasing a name. They INVEST in juniors. Yes they dont have TRUE juniors the way we might but they scout well, put guys in their system and they develop them. They've got more kids from their system in their 17 than we do.

The TPA's matter, they really do. LORD knows their geographical location matters, and their profile helps considerably. But if you swap Politis, Robinson and Hartigan for DFJ, Stuart and Mulholland, we'd beat them like a **** drum.

All this is true but it’s a bit more complicated than that.

The NRL is a tight comp. A few wins is the difference between right in the finals and dead with a few weeks remaining in the regular season. The Roosters’ TPA advantage allows them the extra few wins that routinely puts them among the contenders. This gives the players confidence and exposure to big matches, as well as increasing their opportunities for legitimate TPAs and likelihood to get picked for rep teams. This strengthens the existing team and makes it desirable for new recruits.

For every guy prepared to take unders so they can play in a contender, you can now pay overs for another guy.

You can’t credit their recruitment etc. on face value because it’s inherently intertwined with their advantages. We don’t know what they would achieve without them or what we’d achieve with them. Maybe we’d be less sentimental about falling stars if we had the assurance of being able to easily replace them.

[edwahu]

They lost Fergo as well and picked up Hall and Morris. I doubt Radley would've had a big upgrade, he re-signed before his best form. Maybe 300k a year, which is great value. Same goes for players like Mitchell and Manu who re-signed before their best form.

If you look at the Roosters current squad it's actually pretty easy to see how they are under the cap, especially with a few extra hundred K in TPA and frontloading/backloading which we don't seem to do. What's hard to understand is how we are over it. I had a go at estimating at how the two caps might look.

luke keary 500k?
ryan hall 300k?
latrell mitchell 400k?
tupou origin winger 300k whilst we have brad abbey at 200k.
JWH was a monster when he signed his last deal yet he signed for 600k?
mitch aubusson who has been with them and very good for them for 50 years 200k? the same as brad abbey?
I didnt even know they picked up brock lamb but that will do more.

Anyone trying to sing the chooks and the broncos are just smart with their money are just insane or naive .

Agree Keary was low, I forgot he re-signed recently. 650-700k now.

Hall is at the tail end of his career and 300k is in line with what he wouldve earned for his next deal in England.

Mitchell re-signed when he was still looking miles off origin and barely looked like a first grade defender. In fact he was dropped not long after.

It was on record JWH turned down 700k from us to stay for less at the Roosters. He certainly wouldn't have come to us for less.

Why would Aubusson be on more than 200k at the tail end of his career? He will have a job for life at the Roosters anyway. It's not like any team has ever chased him either.

300k for Tupou is in line with an ex-origin winger for a 4 year deal. Us overpaying Abbey is immaterial, and if it's not Abbey been overpaid it's someone else.

They aren't just smart with their money, they are smart with it and people actually want to play for them. You get success and connections that we can't offer.

Nothing "naive" or "insane" about players making the same decisions we all would.