Canberra Raiders want five-year deal into new Civic Stadium

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 3:16 pm

greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 2:57 pm
greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:The grand stands don't need to be on the sideline GE. The Grandstands are at least 26m back at Lang Park and sfs. If someone is clever enough they could come up with something, possibly a full retreat of the lower section which remains unused in oval mode. It would reduce capacity for that mode, but that mode would need a lower capacity anyway.
But it has been repeatedly shown that they DO need to be. People that view either of the rugby codes or soccer hate multi purpose venues... and don’t go to the grounds. They watch on TV instead. The aim of a new stadium is to get more people through the gates. It is doomed to be complete white elephant if the new stadium in Canberra is multi purpose. It would be a complete waste. I’d rather have no new stadium than a multi purpose ground. The existing stadium would be superior as a viewing experience.


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Name me one rectangular stadium in Australia where the grandstand (not concourse) is within 20m of the sideline.
Name me one multi purpose stadium which works for games played on rectangular fields.
What I'm saying is that they have all been designed with the larger field in mind. If it is designed with the rectangular field as the priority it could be doable.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 3:18 pm

SCG Pitch fits easily within the concourse area of Canberra Stadium.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 27, 2018, 3:30 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:SCG Pitch fits easily within the concourse area of Canberra Stadium.

Image
Now draw a 26m line from the sidelines at Laing park and at the Storms stadium to see how close and steep to the sideline those two are.

Nothing like Canberra stadium or Sydney Olympic stadium.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 3:33 pm

BJ wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:SCG Pitch fits easily within the concourse area of Canberra Stadium.

Image
Now draw a 26m line from the sidelines at Laing park and at the Storms stadium to see how close and steep to the sideline those two are.

Nothing like Canberra stadium or Sydney Olympic stadium.
I'm not sure what your point is. Fact is that the concourse at sfs and the sfs are about 25-26m wide and that the grandstands are set back that far as a result. The gradient of the concourse is irrelevant to that point.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 3:46 pm

This is the SCG pitch transposed on Suncorp (assuming that ths Suncorp pitch is 136m long, like Melbourne Rectangular is). Fits, just, give or take. It is possible. It would mean that the grandstand would come to the edge of the pitch in parts for rectangular mode, and would need some pretty creative engineering. But if the focus was on getting the best experience for the rectangular ground (which it should as that is its main purpose), it is possible. I'm not saying that it's my preferred option, it isn't. I'd much prefer a dedicated rectangular stadium but that is not looking like ever happening.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 4:03 pm

Melbourne (doesn't quite fit):
Image

SFS (fits pretty easily):
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 27, 2018, 4:18 pm

I think your missing the point. The stadium diagrams you are showing are not spatially accurate. The grandstands are tiered and closer than shown on your seating maps.

I’ve seen 3D CAD representations of both the stadiums that I have been talking about and the metre distances from seats to the sidelines are much closer than Canberra Stadium and Homebush. I may need to add my study and work career is in Spatial and CAD representations of spatial information.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 4:23 pm

Perhaps you're missing my point. I'm not talking seats to sideline. I'm talking grandstand to sideline.

Clearly they aren't going to be completely accurate, but unless youv is got a schematic diagram, that's as good as its going to get I'm afraid. I've been to suncorp many many times and there is no way that side concourse is less than 20m and that's being generous.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 27, 2018, 4:46 pm

I guess I just have to hand you the baton for being able to engineer an effective stadium design that allows footings, supports, building skeleton, plumbing, electricals and patrons to move around and sit close to the action with the field set at ‘either rectangular or oval’ configurations.

You need to pass this amazing and hitherto considered impossible design onto England for some new Soccer/Cricket stadiums and to South Africa and New Zealand for their Rugby/Cricket Stadiums. They will save billions of dollars in construction and infrastructure.

I give up.

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Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 4:50 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:Melbourne (doesn't quite fit):
Image

SFS (fits pretty easily):
Image
That’s not the case, for the SFS either, as the stands overhang that concourse by quite a way.


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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 4:54 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:SCG Pitch fits easily within the concourse area of Canberra Stadium.

Image
So what’s the point of building a new stadium, which doesn’t improve sight lines compared to the current stadium. The current stadium sight lines are poor for a rectangular stadium, very poor. There’s no point spending anything on a new stadium if the grandstands are as far away from the sidelines as the current stadium.


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Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 5:17 pm

According to google maps the concourse at Lang Park on either side is about 35m. Again, obviously not completely accurate, but even with room for error, that's gotta be more than 26m.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 5:24 pm

greeneyed wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:50 pm
That’s not the case, for the SFS either, as the stands overhang that concourse by quite a way.


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It actually doesn't GE.
Image

In regards to your sight lines, as per the above post, grandstand could actually be closer to the field than Suncorp. I'd imagine steepness would have more of an impact on sight lines.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 5:27 pm

BJ wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:46 pm
I guess I just have to hand you the baton for being able to engineer an effective stadium design that allows footings, supports, building skeleton, plumbing, electricals and patrons to move around and sit close to the action with the field set at ‘either rectangular or oval’ configurations.

You need to pass this amazing and hitherto considered impossible design onto England for some new Soccer/Cricket stadiums and to South Africa and New Zealand for their Rugby/Cricket Stadiums. They will save billions of dollars in construction and infrastructure.

I give up.
:( Now don't be like that BJ. I'm just generating a bit of discussion. I never said that it was absolutely possible, just that its possible to fit a reasonable size oval inside the concourse area of a rectangular stadium. Stadiums already exist where the concourse can be moved - Stadium Australia for one, the Dunedin one for another. I certainly never said that I was the man for the job :shock:

Hypothetically, if the oval could fit within the concourse area, so that the grandstands could be left alone, could a mechanism be built so that some of the grandstand can be taken away. Surely thats possible, though the cost may be prohibitive.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Schifty » May 27, 2018, 5:32 pm

Even if the sight lines were exactly the same it would be worth it because a roof would mean the place isn't a windy concrete bowl of sadness like our current home ground....

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 6:02 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
greeneyed wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:50 pm
That’s not the case, for the SFS either, as the stands overhang that concourse by quite a way.


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It actually doesn't GE.
Image

In regards to your sight lines, as per the above post, grandstand could actually be closer to the field than Lang Park. I'd imagine steepness would have more of an impact on sight lines.
I’ve been there multiple times. I know it does.


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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Leebola » May 27, 2018, 6:49 pm

greeneyed wrote:
May 27, 2018, 2:42 pm
Leebola wrote:Get the mob that built Forsyth-Barr in Dunedin, make it a rectangle, and make it happen. Upgrade Manuka to a 30,000 seater when the chops are available, or when the next avaricious developer with a proposal comes along. To hell with the fogeys in the surrounding area. You're living in a growing city of near on half a million people.
Better still, leave Manuka just as it is. It’s more than adequate for a handful of AFL and cricket matches.


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Normally I'd agree, but with the possibility of a T20 franchise here, and more ODIs and Tests...

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 6:49 pm

greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
greeneyed wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:50 pm
That’s not the case, for the SFS either, as the stands overhang that concourse by quite a way.


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It actually doesn't GE.
Image

In regards to your sight lines, as per the above post, grandstand could actually be closer to the field than Lang Park. I'd imagine steepness would have more of an impact on sight lines.
I’ve been there multiple times. I know it does.


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Haha, I used to work there when I was at uni. I know it very, very well. You're talking a metre or two overlap at best.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by raiderskater » May 27, 2018, 7:26 pm

Forget doing anything to Manuka until the parking situation is sorted. It's disgraceful around there, particularly if the match is on a school day and therefore the school field is unavailable for parking. I know the ACT Government wants to push everyone onto public transport but getting the bus to Manuka is a nightmare. No point increasing the capacity of that oval until that's sorted.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Matt » May 27, 2018, 7:29 pm

BJ wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:18 pm
I think your missing the point. The stadium diagrams you are showing are not spatially accurate. The grandstands are tiered and closer than shown on your seating maps.

I’ve seen 3D CAD representations of both the stadiums that I have been talking about and the metre distances from seats to the sidelines are much closer than Canberra Stadium and Homebush. I may need to add my study and work career is in Spatial and CAD representations of spatial information.
Would love to see it.
What programs do u use?

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 27, 2018, 8:51 pm

Matt wrote:
BJ wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:18 pm
I think your missing the point. The stadium diagrams you are showing are not spatially accurate. The grandstands are tiered and closer than shown on your seating maps.

I’ve seen 3D CAD representations of both the stadiums that I have been talking about and the metre distances from seats to the sidelines are much closer than Canberra Stadium and Homebush. I may need to add my study and work career is in Spatial and CAD representations of spatial information.
Would love to see it.
What programs do u use?
All my formal training was Autocad, but in the working environment it’s all in house coded systems and 3rd party software like SAFE FME to standardise.

But the modelling from Stadiums I think is all bespoke front ends (but I don’t know what lies below).

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 9:06 pm

raiderskater wrote:
May 27, 2018, 7:26 pm
Forget doing anything to Manuka until the parking situation is sorted. It's disgraceful around there, particularly if the match is on a school day and therefore the school field is unavailable for parking. I know the ACT Government wants to push everyone onto public transport but getting the bus to Manuka is a nightmare. No point increasing the capacity of that oval until that's sorted.
That’s never going to be better. It’s in the middle of a heritage suburban area.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 9:10 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 6:49 pm
greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
greeneyed wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:50 pm
That’s not the case, for the SFS either, as the stands overhang that concourse by quite a way.


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It actually doesn't GE.
Image

In regards to your sight lines, as per the above post, grandstand could actually be closer to the field than Lang Park. I'd imagine steepness would have more of an impact on sight lines.
I’ve been there multiple times. I know it does.


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Haha, I used to work there when I was at uni. I know it very, very well. You're talking a metre or two overlap at best.
That’s wrong and your diagrams are wrong. It’s a ridiculous argument. The whole point of a new stadium is to get a decent stadium for rectangular sports. You don’t even live in Canberra. You’re not a Canberra tax payer. I’m not paying a cent for a stadium that doesn’t actually improve the sight lines. I’d prefer to stay at Bruce, spend no more money. We can’t even fit a rectangular field properly on the site in Civic, let alone an oval.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Schifty » May 27, 2018, 9:23 pm

greeneyed wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:10 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 6:49 pm
greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
greeneyed wrote:
May 27, 2018, 4:50 pm
That’s not the case, for the SFS either, as the stands overhang that concourse by quite a way.


Sent from my iPad using The Greenhouse mobile app powered by Tapatalk
It actually doesn't GE.
Image

In regards to your sight lines, as per the above post, grandstand could actually be closer to the field than Lang Park. I'd imagine steepness would have more of an impact on sight lines.
I’ve been there multiple times. I know it does.


Sent from my iPad using The Greenhouse mobile app powered by Tapatalk
Haha, I used to work there when I was at uni. I know it very, very well. You're talking a metre or two overlap at best.
That’s wrong and your diagrams are wrong. It’s a ridiculous argument. The whole point of a new stadium is to get a decent stadium for rectangular sports. You don’t even live in Canberra. You’re not a Canberra tax payer. I’m not paying a cent for a stadium that doesn’t actually improve the sight lines. I’d prefer to stay at Bruce, spend no more money. We can’t even fit a rectangular field properly on the site in Civic, let alone an oval.
Yes we can.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 9:29 pm

No we can’t.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 9:30 pm

I’m looking forward to Dr Zaius’ diagrams to show how these stadiums fit on the actual site proposed. It doesn’t fit. No stadium really fits unless the build on top of Parkes Way.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 9:45 pm

greeneyed wrote:I’m looking forward to Dr Zaius’ diagrams to show how these stadiums fit on the actual site proposed. It doesn’t fit. No stadium really fits unless the build on top of Parkes Way.
You're getting a little worked up over nothing here GE. Calm down, you'll pop an aneurysm.

Whether a stadium fits on the site without altering Parkes Way was never my argument, but you're welcome to draw the diagrams yourself I've done enough drawing I think.

My argument was simply that an oval the size of the SCG can fit in a concourse bowl of a rectangular stadium, and that concourses can be rearranged. Point 1 is true. Point 2 is true to some extent as evidenced by Homebush and Dunedin.

And for your information, I actually do pay tax in the ACT, as well as rates and so am just as entitled to an opinion as you.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by gergreg » May 27, 2018, 9:49 pm

Why don't they build over Constitution Ave instead? They could link it up with Glebe park and make an awesome complex.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 9:50 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:45 pm
greeneyed wrote:I’m looking forward to Dr Zaius’ diagrams to show how these stadiums fit on the actual site proposed. It doesn’t fit. No stadium really fits unless the build on top of Parkes Way.
You're getting a little worked up over nothing here GE. Calm down, you'll pop an aneurysm. You're welcome to draw the diagrams yourself I've done enough drawing I think. And for your information, I actually do pay tax in the ACT, as well as rates and so am just as entitled to an opinion as you.
I’m not getting worked up over anything. I just know what you’re advocating is unworkable and would be a bad outcome, not only for people who attend sports matches in Canberra, but also for Canberra taxpayers... as a lot of money would be expended for absolutely no gain.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 9:51 pm

gergreg wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:49 pm
Why don't they build over Constitution Ave instead? They could link it up with Glebe park and make an awesome complex.
Because Constitution Avenue is a Burley Griffin heritage listed something or other. And they’re going to put a tram down it. And they just redeveloped it into the Champs Élysées. Didn’t you notice?
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 9:55 pm

greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:45 pm
greeneyed wrote:I’m looking forward to Dr Zaius’ diagrams to show how these stadiums fit on the actual site proposed. It doesn’t fit. No stadium really fits unless the build on top of Parkes Way.
You're getting a little worked up over nothing here GE. Calm down, you'll pop an aneurysm. You're welcome to draw the diagrams yourself I've done enough drawing I think. And for your information, I actually do pay tax in the ACT, as well as rates and so am just as entitled to an opinion as you.
I’m not getting worked up over anything. I just know what you’re advocating is unworkable and would be a bad outcome, not only for people who attend sports matches in Canberra, but also for Canberra taxpayers... as a lot of money would be expended for absolutely no gain.
You sure come across as worked up. Aggressive even.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 9:58 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:55 pm
greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:45 pm
greeneyed wrote:I’m looking forward to Dr Zaius’ diagrams to show how these stadiums fit on the actual site proposed. It doesn’t fit. No stadium really fits unless the build on top of Parkes Way.
You're getting a little worked up over nothing here GE. Calm down, you'll pop an aneurysm. You're welcome to draw the diagrams yourself I've done enough drawing I think. And for your information, I actually do pay tax in the ACT, as well as rates and so am just as entitled to an opinion as you.
I’m not getting worked up over anything. I just know what you’re advocating is unworkable and would be a bad outcome, not only for people who attend sports matches in Canberra, but also for Canberra taxpayers... as a lot of money would be expended for absolutely no gain.
You sure come across as worked up. Aggressive even.
Well that is certainly not what’s intended. That would be inappropriate and it’s not what I wanted to convey at all.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 10:03 pm

My mistake. I know that you're a Teddy Bear
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 11:53 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:45 pm
greeneyed wrote:I’m looking forward to Dr Zaius’ diagrams to show how these stadiums fit on the actual site proposed. It doesn’t fit. No stadium really fits unless the build on top of Parkes Way.
You're getting a little worked up over nothing here GE. Calm down, you'll pop an aneurysm.

Whether a stadium fits on the site without altering Parkes Way was never my argument, but you're welcome to draw the diagrams yourself I've done enough drawing I think.

My argument was simply that an oval the size of the SCG can fit in a concourse bowl of a rectangular stadium, and that concourses can be rearranged. Point 1 is true. Point 2 is true to some extent as evidenced by Homebush and Dunedin.

And for your information, I actually do pay tax in the ACT, as well as rates and so am just as entitled to an opinion as you.
Sorry but anyone thinks the the view at the SGG is acceptable for rugby league... it’s just on.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 28, 2018, 6:15 am

greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:45 pm
greeneyed wrote:I’m looking forward to Dr Zaius’ diagrams to show how these stadiums fit on the actual site proposed. It doesn’t fit. No stadium really fits unless the build on top of Parkes Way.
You're getting a little worked up over nothing here GE. Calm down, you'll pop an aneurysm.

Whether a stadium fits on the site without altering Parkes Way was never my argument, but you're welcome to draw the diagrams yourself I've done enough drawing I think.

My argument was simply that an oval the size of the SCG can fit in a concourse bowl of a rectangular stadium, and that concourses can be rearranged. Point 1 is true. Point 2 is true to some extent as evidenced by Homebush and Dunedin.

And for your information, I actually do pay tax in the ACT, as well as rates and so am just as entitled to an opinion as you.
Sorry but anyone thinks the the view at the SGG is acceptable for rugby league... it’s just on.
I don't think anyone is arguing that
RIP Greenbits: 2007-2014

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