Is Croker the right captain for the team

[Roger Kenworthy]

I truly love that people actually think changing captains will impact performances of the team
Like it’s some Hollywood film. We just need leadership! Haha

It’s great. Really **** great.

You don't think Cam Smith has ever influenced the result of a game?

Cam smith has influenced every game h a ever played. Not because of a c next to his name, but because he’s the best player to ever lace a boot

He also has significant sway with officials. I agree I don't think any replacement on our roster would get us much more of a go with officials - just making the point that there are a few in the world that can.

I do think Hodgson would do a much better job of promoting the club off the field. Croker always looks like a stunned mullet in front of the camera.

[edwahu]

I imagine sponsors are more interested in talking to Hodgo as well.

[luke]

Was ET a good captain?
How about Wiki?
Thoughts on James Graham as a captain?
What about Wayne Pearce?
Dean Lance, was he any good? (yes he won a comp, but not as a captain!!!!!)
John Sutton a legendary captain thanks to 2014?
Jamie Lyon, the dude who is notoriously flakey, a great captain and leader?
Ben Hornby is a hellova leader now?
Matt Orford... MATT ORFORD! Captain of a 40-0 drubbing in a GF. Legendary leader!!!!
Stacy Jones - Trash.
Nathan Hindmarsh -Trash.

Should i **** continue, can GE take over and regale us of the legends of this game who didnt win a comp who were incredible footballers and leaders of men, or can i just pat you on the head, and put you to bed, son?

This is a tour de force Pigman.

Ironically, I've yet to read a "Croker should be dropped as captain" take that isn't a result of mediocre thinking.

[Roger Kenworthy]

Was ET a good captain?
How about Wiki?
Thoughts on James Graham as a captain?
What about Wayne Pearce?
Dean Lance, was he any good? (yes he won a comp, but not as a captain!!!!!)
John Sutton a legendary captain thanks to 2014?
Jamie Lyon, the dude who is notoriously flakey, a great captain and leader?
Ben Hornby is a hellova leader now?
Matt Orford... MATT ORFORD! Captain of a 40-0 drubbing in a GF. Legendary leader!!!!
Stacy Jones - Trash.
Nathan Hindmarsh -Trash.

Should i **** continue, can GE take over and regale us of the legends of this game who didnt win a comp who were incredible footballers and leaders of men, or can i just pat you on the head, and put you to bed, son?

This is a tour de force Pigman.

Ironically, I've yet to read a "Croker should be dropped as captain" take that isn't a result of mediocre thinking.

The irony being if you aren't questioning everything about the set up of the Raiders this year then you are very accepting of mediocrity.

[luke]

Was ET a good captain?
How about Wiki?
Thoughts on James Graham as a captain?
What about Wayne Pearce?
Dean Lance, was he any good? (yes he won a comp, but not as a captain!!!!!)
John Sutton a legendary captain thanks to 2014?
Jamie Lyon, the dude who is notoriously flakey, a great captain and leader?
Ben Hornby is a hellova leader now?
Matt Orford... MATT ORFORD! Captain of a 40-0 drubbing in a GF. Legendary leader!!!!
Stacy Jones - Trash.
Nathan Hindmarsh -Trash.

Should i **** continue, can GE take over and regale us of the legends of this game who didnt win a comp who were incredible footballers and leaders of men, or can i just pat you on the head, and put you to bed, son?

This is a tour de force Pigman.

Ironically, I've yet to read a "Croker should be dropped as captain" take that isn't a result of mediocre thinking.

The irony being if you aren't questioning everything about the set up of the Raiders this year then you are very accepting of mediocrity.

question away, doesn't make the mediocre Croker takes any less mediocre

[Billy Walker]

Was ET a good captain?
How about Wiki?
Thoughts on James Graham as a captain?
What about Wayne Pearce?
Dean Lance, was he any good? (yes he won a comp, but not as a captain!!!!!)
John Sutton a legendary captain thanks to 2014?
Jamie Lyon, the dude who is notoriously flakey, a great captain and leader?
Ben Hornby is a hellova leader now?
Matt Orford... MATT ORFORD! Captain of a 40-0 drubbing in a GF. Legendary leader!!!!
Stacy Jones - Trash.
Nathan Hindmarsh -Trash.

Should i **** continue, can GE take over and regale us of the legends of this game who didnt win a comp who were incredible footballers and leaders of men, or can i just pat you on the head, and put you to bed, son?
[/quote

I'd rather support a successful football team than a failing team that supposedly had a good captain. By your logic, I'm surprised that Cronulla celebrated its premiership so hard. Weren't they just happy having ET, and Miller and other great leaders of men in the past despite not winning zip???

I asked the question if Croker would ever be a premiership player and I heard crickets. I am very confident he will never win an NRL premiership at the Raiders or any other club.

But - if your happy watching him flap his arms about and do his mediocre best then good luck to you. I look forward to the day we get leadership in the club that will bring actual success.

[Billy Walker]

Was ET a good captain?
How about Wiki?
Thoughts on James Graham as a captain?
What about Wayne Pearce?
Dean Lance, was he any good? (yes he won a comp, but not as a captain!!!!!)
John Sutton a legendary captain thanks to 2014?
Jamie Lyon, the dude who is notoriously flakey, a great captain and leader?
Ben Hornby is a hellova leader now?
Matt Orford... MATT ORFORD! Captain of a 40-0 drubbing in a GF. Legendary leader!!!!
Stacy Jones - Trash.
Nathan Hindmarsh -Trash.

Should i **** continue, can GE take over and regale us of the legends of this game who didnt win a comp who were incredible footballers and leaders of men, or can i just pat you on the head, and put you to bed, son?

I'd rather support a successful football team than a failing team that supposedly had a good captain. By your logic, I'm surprised that Cronulla celebrated its premiership so hard. Weren't they just happy having ET, and Miller and other great leaders of men in the past despite not winning zip???

I asked the question if Croker would ever be a premiership player and I heard crickets. I am very confident he will never win an NRL premiership at the Raiders or any other club.

But - if your happy watching him flap his arms about and do his mediocre best then good luck to you. I look forward to the day we get leadership in the club that will bring actual success.

[Raider Azz]

Do people REALLY honestly think that with a different captain we'd see a change in the W-L loss column? Really?
We can **** still be here in 2018 can we?

Cam Smith can influence officials, we get that. He's a great captain because of it... but he's a great captain because he's a **** elite player! Ever heard the term "superstar call", thats what it is! The best in the world at their chosen sport get the BOTD! That's sport.

Cam Smith can influence referees because he's the best player to ever lace a boot, and he's given the BOTD due to a man of his stature. Inglis is a bumbling idiot who cant string 5 words together, possesses no real geniuine leadership and was a perfectly fine captain because.... HE'S A SUPERSTAR! haha.
Paul Gallen ****, who is objectively a terrible, selfish leader, got calls! Because he has a reputation as an elite footballer.

We dont have a superstar, not in the true sense of the word. If we had one, then by all means he should be captain.
Hodgson is our best player but he is a Pom who doesnt play origin, who isnt visible on a code wide sense. Croker's got a more public profile than Hodgson, Croker would get recognised in the street more than Hodgson.

What has made Croker a bad captain today and in 2015 as opposed to 2016 when he was voted Captain of the Year in the Dally M's? Wins and Losses is all. Asinine analysis. Wins means the captain is fine, losses means he's trash. Please.

Croker has the respect and backing of his player group, his coaching staff and isn't likely to do something that requires him to be stood down. Importance for captaincy is in THAT order. If the players took a poll on who they'd want as captain, it would be near anonymous that Croker would retain the role. That's what captaincy is, setting a standard for the club, and having the ultimate respect from you peers.

Anyone who thinks that we'd have more wins than we do now with a different captain has watched too many god damn movies, haha. It's so god damn ridiculous.

My only issue with our leadership is that they've taken on Stuart's persona of complaining about everything too much. But that's clearly a product of a culture of unaccountability more than anything else

From now on I'm just going to quote this post every time this ridiculous **** topic is brought up.

[luke]

the list of non-mediocre captains and players since 1908 who never won a premiership would probably be quite long

[Roger Kenworthy]

Was ET a good captain?
How about Wiki?
Thoughts on James Graham as a captain?
What about Wayne Pearce?
Dean Lance, was he any good? (yes he won a comp, but not as a captain!!!!!)
John Sutton a legendary captain thanks to 2014?
Jamie Lyon, the dude who is notoriously flakey, a great captain and leader?
Ben Hornby is a hellova leader now?
Matt Orford... MATT ORFORD! Captain of a 40-0 drubbing in a GF. Legendary leader!!!!
Stacy Jones - Trash.
Nathan Hindmarsh -Trash.

Should i **** continue, can GE take over and regale us of the legends of this game who didnt win a comp who were incredible footballers and leaders of men, or can i just pat you on the head, and put you to bed, son?

This is a tour de force Pigman.

Ironically, I've yet to read a "Croker should be dropped as captain" take that isn't a result of mediocre thinking.

The irony being if you aren't questioning everything about the set up of the Raiders this year then you are very accepting of mediocrity.

question away, doesn't make the mediocre Croker takes any less mediocre

What are the selling points for Croker as captain?

Obviously he is a great clubman and a responsible ambassador for the club. His form this year has been up and down.

[Billy Walker]

the list of non-mediocre captains and players since 1908 who never won a premiership would probably be quite long

[luke]

You didn’t actually understand that ay

[Lui_Bon]

For anyone who thinks that Croker shouldn’t be the Captain due to his skill set can I suggest reading this book:

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... 812987072/

It is a great read that talks about all the different attributes a successful captain shows.

Now I am not arguing that Croker possesses these skills but you may learn that their is a lot more to picking a captain.

Now explain the bit where Collingwood of the 1920s who won 4 comps in a row are so much better than St George of the 1960s who won eleven but are dismissed because it's a suburban competition... because the author sure as **** can't. I refute his entire argument on that basis. And no, I'm not reading the whole book!

[Billy Walker]

You didn’t actually understand that ay

Yeah - I was just laughing at you

[Roger Kenworthy]

My only real issues with Croker are:

a) Hodgo seems miles better with the media side of it.
b) He has had an inconsistent couple of years. While his spot at left centre isn't under threat in our basketcase of a team I also wouldn't have him in the first 4 or 5 picked in the past couple of seasons.

[gangrenous]

My only real issues with Croker are:

a) Hodgo seems miles better with the media side of it.
b) He has had an inconsistent couple of years. While his spot at left centre isn't under threat in our basketcase of a team I also wouldn't have him in the first 4 or 5 picked in the past couple of seasons.

Hodgson on the other hand has been on field and consistent across the last two years.

Next inane argument please. Shouldn’t take much time, you guys clearly aren’t putting any thought into them.

[Roger Kenworthy]

I love how defensive of Croker people are. It really is very odd.

[Botman]

It's not about being defensive of Croker, it's about calling out this ridiculous idea that some how who has a (c) next to his name and who mostly deals with the media is some how a major pressing issue in this squad.
Blaming Croker for the situation the club finds itself on or off the park is beyond ridiculous

We're not losing games because of who is or isn't captain, we're losing games because our club is poorly run and our coach is trash.

[yeh raiders]

Ricky’s self-assigned #1 attribute as a coach is to reflect back on his career and say that he’s still friends with the majority of people he has coached. If he drops Croker or revokes the captaincy, he’s likely burning a bridge. So that’s not going to happen while he coaches us.

But like I said earlier in this thread, despite all his flaws and his stubbornness, Ricky prioritised engaging Mal Meninga to mentor Croker to become a better captain.

That speaks volumes to me, it proves the leadership gaps that we’re continually seeing on the field and clearly goes against this mythical arguement that the captain really doesn’t matter.

Yeh raiders logic:
This person is doing a terrible job, but I agree with him on this one point, so I’ll use that as the basis of an argument.

Really? What a ridiculous reply.

They’re real examples to support the points I’m making.

There are a number of things I agree with Ricky on, and yes the number is pretty small. E.g. Recruitment has been largely pretty good.

But just because Ricky overall, is doing a terrible job, doesn’t mean every decision he makes is the wrong one. If I was sit here and write off every past and future decision Ricky makes, that’s just complete bias.

We all agree that there is a leadership problem in this team. Just half the people on here seem to think there’s no correlation between being captain and playing a role in leadership.

No one’s arguing that a new captain is going to fix all our problems. It’s one of many issues, all leading back to the Ricky Stuart.

[gangrenous]

Ricky’s self-assigned #1 attribute as a coach is to reflect back on his career and say that he’s still friends with the majority of people he has coached. If he drops Croker or revokes the captaincy, he’s likely burning a bridge. So that’s not going to happen while he coaches us.

But like I said earlier in this thread, despite all his flaws and his stubbornness, Ricky prioritised engaging Mal Meninga to mentor Croker to become a better captain.

That speaks volumes to me, it proves the leadership gaps that we’re continually seeing on the field and clearly goes against this mythical arguement that the captain really doesn’t matter.

Yeh raiders logic:
This person is doing a terrible job, but I agree with him on this one point, so I’ll use that as the basis of an argument.

Really? What a ridiculous reply.

They’re real examples to support the points I’m making.

There are a number of things I agree with Ricky on, and yes the number is pretty small. E.g. Recruitment has been largely pretty good.

But just because Ricky overall, is doing a terrible job, doesn’t mean every decision he makes is the wrong one. If I was sit here and write off every past and future decision Ricky makes, that’s just complete bias.

We all agree that there is a leadership problem in this team. Just half the people on here seem to think there’s no correlation between being captain and playing a role in leadership.

No one’s arguing that a new captain is going to fix all our problems. It’s one of many issues, all leading back to the Ricky Stuart.

It’s not a ridiculous reply at all. If there are numerous examples then you should have used them to build your argument. Instead you centred your argument entirely on the actions of someone you disagree with on most other things.

Absolutely Ricky believing/saying something doesn’t make it wrong. But it’s hardly grounds for your argument. Even Phil Gould accidentally gets things right sometimes. But you won’t catch me basing an argument entirely on what Phil Gould said. He suddenly becomes a more credible source because I agree with this one opinion? No.

[yeh raiders]

“Phil Gould accidentally gets things right”.

Tell me you’re joking ?

There’s plenty of other examples used by other posters. I just bothered to bring up something different, that is completely relevant to the argument.

If you’re in the “captain plays no role in leadership camp” then you’ll obviously be disagreeing with Ricky’s actions to bring in Mal’s mentorship.

[gangrenous]

Straw men, straw men everywhere and not a drop to drink.

[Roger Kenworthy]

It's not about being defensive of Croker, it's about calling out this ridiculous idea that some how who has a (c) next to his name and who mostly deals with the media is some how a major pressing issue in this squad.
Blaming Croker for the situation the club finds itself on or off the park is beyond ridiculous

We're not losing games because of who is or isn't captain, we're losing games because our club is poorly run and our coach is trash.

Yup if anyone is blaming the season on Croker it is ridiculous. In an underperforming organisation he also isn't automatically the best man for the job year in and year out though.

There's also plenty of logic in the argument that this also isn't on the coach as much as some will push. He has had the side prepared, and in the running to win each game up until minute 75 bar 3 or 4. It's the players inability to concentrate and perform under pressure late in matches that has seen us butcher match after match. A coach can only do so much....

I can't come up with any argument against the club being poorly run

[roneel78]

^^
And a one B Austin being responsible for at least 3 losses single handedly this year.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Johno]

I havent got to the team being named yet..... please please please.... omit Blake Austin, not on bench, not in 17, not on extended.... just out.... please !!!!!

[RedRaider]

Interesting that people think good on field leadership is no longer necessary. It is not the straw man 'silver bullet' some are trying to paint it as, but it is a necessary part of a successful team. Like all other aspects of a players career, some will peak early and some late as Captains. Some will be right for the environment they play in for a time and then decline as fitness, form, squad, off field issues mean the type of leadership is no longer valid. One thing is for certain though, when a team is not performing everything should be looked at. Including fan favourites.

Former NFL coach Vince Lombardi once started a season by addressing his players saying 'this is a football'. It was a back to basics approach. We have not had success since 1994. Worse, we have rarely been a genuine threat since then. Our end of season reviews are not seeing improvement in the teams performance the following year. What is the point of the reviews if the same issues come up in successive years?

We all look at different things in matches. For me our defensive efforts are not at NRL Top 8 standard. We can't close out games therefore our fitness is an issue. Players don't willingly drop footballs but they will do so under fatigue. If they are not quite at the fitness level they need to be it will happen regularly. Sounds like our season to me. Same ol same ol is fine when it is reinforcing success. But it is poor when it is reinforcing failure. Everything should be looked at. Including the Captaincy.

[Archer]

Interesting that people think good on field leadership is no longer necessary.

Nobody has said this.
On field leadership isn't the sole domain of a captain. Just like the captains job isn't solely focused on on field leadership (as some of the examples mentioned show, they can in fact show 0 leadership in this regard).

I've worked under plenty of people who couldn't lead a conga line and its never once stopped me from taking charge if I need to. Closer to the point, do you think if storm had of ran with Chambers as the captain, Smith would have sat on his hands during the game. Do you think Cronk and Slater did? What about in origin, with Smith, Cronk, Slater, JT, Scott etc all in one team? Only one of those blokes is a leader and the rest either do nothing or are ignored if they do?

Anyone currently in the team already has the opportunity to be a leader, with or without the C there. Hodgo already does take charge often enough, he was the one telling Croker to take 2 and was barking at the team plenty over the weekend. Do you think his words were ignored because he's not the skip? If that's the case I'd say we have far bigger issues. Croker is a great captain for the club and we have leadership problems, those aren't exclusive.

[RedRaider]

Archer, I've read on here that Captaincy is only about the coin toss and media work. That anyone could be the Captain and it would not make a difference.
"Anyone who thinks that we'd have more wins than we do now with a different captain has watched too many god damn movies, haha. It's so god damn ridiculous." was from Pigman.

Where were the calls from the Captain in those matches where a field goal was the option. The plays should have been to work to a position where a field goal was possible. That takes on field leadership and whether it is accepted or not, the bloke with the 'c' beside his name has the main responsibility for on field leadership. Don't believe it? Well why do referees call out captains over issues within a match to communicate with his side to take corrective action.

I am not of the opinion that Croker is not a quality FG player. I think he is. Sure he has areas of his game that he works on, I remember Cam Smith once saying the same not so long ago. But like form as a player, there is form as a Captain. There are those who say Captaincy is irrelevant in these days of assistant coaches running water onto the field and giving instruction/direction. My view is that this practice weakens the authority and confidence of the designated captain. But it doesn't alter the fact that the bloke with the 'c' beside his name and who is tuned into the match, needs to be able to make snap judgements and get them right more often than not.

[Botman]

Where were the calls from the Captain in those matches where a field goal was the option. The plays should have been to work to a position where a field goal was possible. That takes on field leadership and whether it is accepted or not, the bloke with the 'c' beside his name has the main responsibility for on field leadership.

Red, do you want to take a moment to rethink this one?
I think you should take a moment to rethink this one.

[Pete Cash]

Nick is wrong when it comes to the perception of hodgson v croker within rugby league. listen to how the commentators talk about each player.

Hodgson is seen as an elite player within the game by the commentary team who have been salivating over him since his return. Croker best attribute is underrated or fringe origin player.

This (nicks argument) isnt about who would be recognised on the streets but who the refs would respect more. if there was a poll by nrl refs on who is a better player croker or hodgson who do you think would win?

there is plenty of evidence the refs already give hodgson tons of leeway because he is pretty grubby in the ruck and almost never gets penalised for it. like the good hooker that he is.

again im mostly on the change captain wagon because this era is such a horror show that every element of it must go but within rugby league there is no doubt that Hodgson is seen as a vastly better player than Croker.

If you talk about who would be more recognised in the streets by normies well croker does have 10 years in the nrl so i can accept that. How do neutrals see croker as an aside. i post a lot on league unlimited and here is what they associate croker with : missing a penalty goal 10 years ago, a funny skeepe meme, bad defence and scoring lots of points.

[simo]

Im going to go right ahead and ignore what everyone else has written in here, especially pigman who looks to be doing his overly wordy thing still. Ill dot point it, feel free to add others.
Reasons to replace croker with hodgo as captain:
- hodgson is our best player on the highest salary.
- his position in the team is assured, no possibility of signing a superior player for his position
- middle of park closer to refs ear
- hodgo is far more well known to nrl fans than croker, often referred to as our captain by other teams fans anyway
- croker is a good player in his position, but he would be overpaid for his worth and its likely that captaincy on his resume increases what we pay him
-journos would actually ask hodgo questions instead of ricky always having to try and get them to ask Croker one (personally find this annoying and this actually should hold no weight in this discussion but i needed to get it off my chest that this irks me)

Reasons to keep croker as our captain
- you dont think being captain actually means anything (why would you be against changing it then?)
- it would be a kick in the guts to croker
- it will never happen so why even talk about it
- croker is a really nice guy
- croker was captain of the year in our good season (ricky was also coach of the year in that season yet plenty want him sacked)

End of the day, this should be hodgsons team and most reasons for not making him captain seem to be because it wont fix anything. I disagree. It sets the tone that this is josh hodgsons team.

[Hazza]

It's not about being defensive of Croker, it's about calling out this ridiculous idea that some how who has a (c) next to his name and who mostly deals with the media is some how a major pressing issue in this squad.
Blaming Croker for the situation the club finds itself on or off the park is beyond ridiculous

We're not losing games because of who is or isn't captain, we're losing games because our club is poorly run and our coach is trash.

Ha! Can't agree more. Truly amazing the amount of people that actually think it would make a difference who our c is. It really is comical. I hear the same **** after every loss. I can't think of a team sport where the captain is less important than Rugby League.

[gangrenous]

Simo’s post is the most logically framed argument I’ve seen here on the switching captains front.

However I’m still of the opinion it’s like cleaning your air filter while you have a flat battery (if this analogy doesn’t make sense it’s because I don’t know **** about cars ). I don’t see any point in ruffling feathers and upsetting the team dynamic at the moment for possibly some incremental benefit. All the while the car is going nowhere anyway because there’s a fundamental problem you haven’t addressed in arguably 4 years (lost a lot of close games in 2015 and the start of 2016 as I recall, in addition to the shambles of the last two years)

[LP Raider]

Really would be interesting to hear what is being said behind the goal posts.

[LP Raider]

BEAR
"Pop over to thegh.com.au there’s always discussion on club forums about these things, it’s a useful tool to use. Just don’t login and post supercoach questions, they don’t seem to like that!."
SIMO
"Miserable bunch of old men yelling at clouds. Wouldnt rely on them too much for info."

Simo where not all old, "it's a small world after all".