Raiders Scouting Thread

zim · Post by **zim** » May 7, 2018, 8:52 pm

Last year he played a decent amount of 2nd row.
But hey the dude is all heart and trains like a demon so maybe he can push his way into a genuine middle 3 at some point.

Post by **T_R** » May 7, 2018, 9:01 pm

This is a fantastic thread to read.

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zim · Post by **zim** » May 7, 2018, 9:02 pm

T_R wrote:This is a fantastic thread to read.

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It'll only get better if we fail to re-sign any of the 3 biguns.

Botman · Post by **Botman** » May 7, 2018, 9:09 pm

This has been an... interesting read.
FWIW, i think you should not worry about 2nd row vs lock vs front row... edge and middle, that's what it is in the NRL. You're either an edge forward or a middle forward. Lock v front row no longer matters

edwahu · Post by **edwahu** » May 7, 2018, 9:35 pm

There are still substantial differences between lock and prop, you can't just call them all "middle".

Boyd or Junior are not going to play there, they don't have the mobillity or endurance and locks like cant play prop. It's still a more mobile and skilled players who are making a success of lock.

Botman · Post by **Botman** » May 7, 2018, 9:49 pm

edwahu wrote: ↑May 7, 2018, 9:35 pm There are still substantial differences between lock and prop, you can't just call them all "middle".

Boyd or Junior are not going to play there, the don't have the mobillity or endurance and locks like cant play prop. It's still a more mobile and skilled players who are making a success of lock.

Totally disagree. Lock's are middles. Smaller middles, more skilled middles sure, but they are middle forwards. They play the same role but are slightly more talented versions of their 8 and 10 collegues

It's easy to point to Boyd and Paulo sna day they cant play 13, but they are not the norm. They are BOTH 120kgs PLUS. Most middles are 12 kgs less than that, if not more. We have the outliers, not the norms. Bateman. Most teams are rolling our their most agile middle as a lock, the fact we dont have many agile middles doesnt make this false. They are a dying breed (which makes investing in them a curious decision 2 years ago).

The age we're in, and the transition means there is some cross overs, where players can do both edge and middle, but their skill sets are always more suited to one or the other, which is why there is no a specialisation of it.

The differences between a lock and front rower is basically an offload and a step. Which is becoming much more common in big men these days. It's middles and edge players. That has already started and continues to trend that way

dribble73 · Post by **dribble73** » May 7, 2018, 9:56 pm

SeeBee101 wrote:Horsburgh is still too young... Guler has a couple years on him and he looks the goods. Pumped out 70+ minutes (14 runs, 125 metres, 32 tackles) on the weekend. Been pretty consistent all season too.

Same age but you could say a different training age.

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dribble73 · Post by **dribble73** » May 7, 2018, 10:03 pm

Pigman wrote:
edwahu wrote: ↑May 7, 2018, 9:35 pm There are still substantial differences between lock and prop, you can't just call them all "middle".

Boyd or Junior are not going to play there, the don't have the mobillity or endurance and locks like cant play prop. It's still a more mobile and skilled players who are making a success of lock.
Totally disagree. Lock's are middles. Smaller middles, more skilled middles sure, but they are middle forwards. They play the same role but are slightly more talented versions of their 8 and 10 collegues

It's easy to point to Boyd and Paulo sna day they cant play 13, but they are not the norm. They are BOTH 120kgs PLUS. Most middles are 12 kgs less than that, if not more. We have the outliers, not the norms. Bateman. Most teams are rolling our their most agile middle as a lock, the fact we dont have many agile middles doesnt make this false. They are a dying breed (which makes investing in them a curious decision 2 years ago).

The age we're in, and the transition means there is some cross overs, where players can do both edge and middle, but their skill sets are always more suited to one or the other, which is why there is no a specialisation of it.

The differences between a lock and front rower is basically an offload and a step. Which is becoming much more common in big men these days. It's middles and edge players. That has already started and continues to trend that way

Klemmer has played for the Dogs at 13 this year - no step and offload. A traditional lock probably won’t return to the game until it goes to 6 interchanges.

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Relax-init · Post by **Relax-init** » May 8, 2018, 2:43 pm

Anyone follow the junior leagues in Canberra. I was at an U15's game on the weekend, there is some serious talent in the Canberra ranks. Hopefully some of these kids can convert it to the pro's in the next few years.

zim · Post by **zim** » May 8, 2018, 3:06 pm

dribble73 wrote: ↑May 7, 2018, 10:03 pm
Pigman wrote:
edwahu wrote: ↑May 7, 2018, 9:35 pm There are still substantial differences between lock and prop, you can't just call them all "middle".

Boyd or Junior are not going to play there, the don't have the mobillity or endurance and locks like cant play prop. It's still a more mobile and skilled players who are making a success of lock.
Totally disagree. Lock's are middles. Smaller middles, more skilled middles sure, but they are middle forwards. They play the same role but are slightly more talented versions of their 8 and 10 collegues

It's easy to point to Boyd and Paulo sna day they cant play 13, but they are not the norm. They are BOTH 120kgs PLUS. Most middles are 12 kgs less than that, if not more. We have the outliers, not the norms. Bateman. Most teams are rolling our their most agile middle as a lock, the fact we dont have many agile middles doesnt make this false. They are a dying breed (which makes investing in them a curious decision 2 years ago).

The age we're in, and the transition means there is some cross overs, where players can do both edge and middle, but their skill sets are always more suited to one or the other, which is why there is no a specialisation of it.

The differences between a lock and front rower is basically an offload and a step. Which is becoming much more common in big men these days. It's middles and edge players. That has already started and continues to trend that way
Klemmer has played for the Dogs at 13 this year - no step and offload. A traditional lock probably won’t return to the game until it goes to 6 interchanges.

You might be thinking of last year. Klemmer has been at prop all year this year. The dogs have been running more mobile locks like Adam Elliot and Josh Jackson.

zim · Post by **zim** » May 8, 2018, 5:31 pm

Horsburgh putting in some good numbers for Mounties off the bench last week. 102m and 30 tackles in 54mins. That's a crazy work rate for a kid.
Guler started at lock and ended up with 125m and 32 tackles in 72mins.

Post by **Matt** » May 8, 2018, 9:38 pm

Dusty wrote: ↑May 7, 2018, 8:33 pm
Matt wrote:
Dusty wrote: ↑May 7, 2018, 6:01 pm Liam Knight?

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Is a prop. Whats the Q?
Prop, Lock, edge

I was wanting to know why he wasn’t an option there

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He is always an option at all those. However, Im pretty sure the club sees him at prop. At least in 1st grade

edwahu · Post by **edwahu** » May 11, 2018, 7:01 pm

This thread is a good a place as any but have a look at the level of stats that are actually recorded each game.

https://www.nrl.com/operations/the-game ... finitions/

I wonder how much we use these when we scout?

Post by **greeneyed** » May 11, 2018, 7:26 pm

I couldn't see any stats at that link...

edwahu · Post by **edwahu** » May 11, 2018, 8:17 pm

greeneyed wrote: ↑May 11, 2018, 7:26 pm I couldn't see any stats at that link...

This is just the glossary of stats that get collected. The public has access to about 10% of them.

Post by **greeneyed** » May 11, 2018, 8:22 pm

I'm certain that the Raiders would use whatever statistics are available to them in making decisions on players.

-TW- · Post by **-TW-** » May 11, 2018, 8:51 pm

I dunno, they did sign Frank Paul Nuuasaala

dribble73 · Post by **dribble73** » May 11, 2018, 9:14 pm

Clubs pay for the other 90%. They get most of them live and are coded more accurately post game.

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edwahu · Post by **edwahu** » May 11, 2018, 9:48 pm

dribble73 wrote: ↑May 11, 2018, 9:14 pm Clubs pay for the other 90%. They get most of them live and are coded more accurately post game.

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Can you tell us how slow Vaughans play the ball is?

Botman · Post by **Botman** » May 11, 2018, 9:53 pm

I'll never understand why Nine/Fox dont have access to this stuff and make it publicly available
That **** drives conversation, drives interest, drives engagement.

This code continues to be the best visual sport that is administered and presented in the worst way.

Post by **greeneyed** » May 11, 2018, 9:55 pm

NRL statistics are ridiculously bad. They don't even put up player stats on NRL.com... only the NRL app. It is a blight on the sport.

zim · Post by **zim** » May 11, 2018, 10:03 pm

They've got them for each round on NRL.com now:
https://www.nrl.com/players/nrl-premier ... ck-cotric/

Post by **greeneyed** » May 11, 2018, 10:10 pm

zim wrote: ↑May 11, 2018, 10:03 pm They've got them for each round on NRL.com now:
https://www.nrl.com/players/nrl-premier ... ck-cotric/

So you have to look at each individual player to see them?! That's worse than last year's version of NRL.com.

zim · Post by **zim** » May 11, 2018, 10:12 pm

Yep. But that's a new addition so looks like they are in the process of getting things back up to speed.

Seiffert82 · Post by **Seiffert82** » May 12, 2018, 9:32 am

-TW- wrote: ↑May 11, 2018, 8:51 pm I dunno, they did sign Frank Paul Nuuasaala

Post by **Matt** » May 13, 2018, 6:45 am

Pigman wrote: ↑May 11, 2018, 9:53 pm I'll never understand why Nine/Fox dont have access to this stuff and make it publicly available
That **** drives conversation, drives interest, drives engagement.

This code continues to be the best visual sport that is administered and presented in the worst way.

Post by **Matt** » June 19, 2018, 2:33 pm

This instalment of the Raiders scouting thread will look at Backrow. Thus far we have looked at Lock, Halves and Prop. I’ll look to do a write up for each position as I get time. I’ll be looking at those players off contract in the NRL in both 2018 and 2019 for options. However, I might add the odd ‘surplus’ or ‘disgruntled’ player I think might be worth a shot. I am not across the ESL, so I won’t be looking there.

Backrow

Let’s have a look at what the Raiders are currently working with:
Backrow: Josh Papalii^, Elliott Whitehead and Joseph Tapine
Backup: Jack Murchie
Off Contract:

* Contract with option in clubs favour.
# May have signed elsewhere
^ Recently re-signed

So, according to the simplistic depth formula, we need:
Backrow: One^
Bench: Four

Due to the nature of contracts, and the apparent worthlessness of the paper they are written on, we will look at the next two seasons of options. The reason for this is, the term ‘early release’ is becoming more and more of a common occurrence.

The source I use for off contract players doesn’t separate Lock as its own position. They fall in the prop and backrow lists. I have tried to separate them out, so if there is a player missing you would consider a prop, I may have moved them to that list and vice versa.

Backrow players off contract in 2018:
Sam McIntyre, Joey Peato, Lachlan Burr, Zac Hosking, Luke Lewis, Jesse Martin, Joseph Paulo, James Bell, Lewis Brown, Jamie Buhrer, Jayson Bukuya, Louis Geraghty, Jack Gosiewski, Brock Gray, Ryan Hoffman, Shaun Lane, Matiu Love-Henry, Ethan Lowe, Patrick Mago, Rhyse Martin, Jack Morris, Josh Papalii, Ray Stone, Jaydn Su'a, Sauaso Sue, Kelepi Tanginoa, Jayden Walker, Tony Williams, Shane Wright, Masivesi Dakuwaqa, Tyrell Fuimaono, Curtis Sironen, John Sutton,

Backrow players off contract in 2019:
Mitchell Aubusson, Gavin Cooper, Chris Lawrence, Joel Thompson, Ryan Matterson, Wade Graham, Joe Greenwood, Josh Aloiai, Dean Britt, Kurt Capewell, Jed Cartwright, Michael Chee-Kam, Joshua Curran, Kenny Edwards, Lachlan Fitzgibbon, Alex Glenn, Coen Hess, Josh Kerr, Manu Ma'u, Tepai Moeroa, Robbie Rochow, Andre Savelio, Tariq Sims, Scott Sorensen, Joe Stimson, Brad Takairangi, Siosifa Talakai, Joseph Tapine, Sitili Tupouniua, Joseph Vuna, Frank Winterstein, Cruz Topai-Aveai, Viliame Kikau, Felise Kaufusi,

I’m not going to have a list of players ‘we could never get’ as this is a terrible mentality to recruitment to start with. However, I think we have to be realistic about our options, and I also think we need to be serious about our needs. Therefore, here is my ‘no fly zone’ and a brief reason why.

No Fly Zone 2018
Lachlan Burr – Was an ok player at the Tigers and Titans, but haven’t seen him this year.
Luke Lewis – Great player, love Lewis, but injuries are piling up, and retirement getting closer.
Joseph Paulo – He is doing a job at the Sharks, but he doesn’t tip the scale at all.
Lewis Brown – In years gone by his versatility would be great, but he can’t crack a decimated Manly side.
Jamie Buhrer – Too injury prone.
Tyrell Fuimaono – He was a junior rep player, looked great on debut for the Bunnies last year, and can play centre. I really like him, but, he won’t get a look in here, and he will be wanting regular NRL.
Jack Gosiewski – He burst onto the scene this year at Manly, and looked good, however, he will be known for his ‘cheap shot’ on Jonathan Thurston that resulted in a broken hand. Again, I can’t see him getting a look in here, so he won’t come.
Brock Gray – Had big wraps on him, is at the Chooks, but hasn’t really cracked the NRL.
Ryan Hoffman – Retirement is calling.
Ethan Lowe – I like Lowe, a solid player that can play lock or edge, and a goal kicker too. However, he has a problem making the starting 17 at the Cowboys because they are stocked in the backrow. He won’t leave to end up in the same situation.
Rhyse Martin – I liked Martin at the World Cup for PNG. Another backrower that can goal kick. He is part of the Dogs cap issues at moment, not able to play until Dogs shed players. I hope Dean Pay realises that with an inability to score points, they need Martin to partner Faitila-Mariner in the backrow, with Jackson at lock.
Jaydn Su'a – He is another backrower than can play centre. He has done a great job in Gillett’s absence for the Broncos. However, we don’t need a young edge player, especially one who will want NRL games.
Tony Williams – I thought T-Rex was extinct?!?
Curtis Sironen – He is one of the most overrated players in the NRL. Pass.
John Sutton – Has had a great career for the Bunnies, I thought they would coast him to game 300 and move him on, but he is in career form at the moment. It’s still a pass from me.

Young players with good reputations, but we need to win now: None.

Players I have no information on: Sam McIntyre, Joey Peato, Zac Hosking, Matiu Love-Henry,
Jesse Martin, James Bell, Louis Geraghty, Jack Morris, Ray Stone, Jayden Walker, Shane Wright

Ex-Raiders:
Patrick Mago – Getting a bit part at the Bronco’s at the moment, playing alongside his u20s team mate Pangai Jr.
Masivesi Dakuwaqa – Not sure what has happened to our left field choice from Fiji? Was in Tumut last I heard.

Options 2018:
Jayson Bukuya – He is a solid player, and NRL hardened, who is playing more lock than backrow these days. I think given our backrow stocks, this versatility is imperative going forward.
Shaun Lane – I really like Lane, I thought he and Faitila-Mariner were two of the better prospcets coming through two or three years ago, and are both under rated players. Lane has been one of Manlys best players this year. He has played more prop than backrow, and handled it very well. He would also fit into all Tilse’s jerseys.
Sauaso Sue – Just like the first two on this list, he plays more middle than edge, and I like him as a bench option. Though, the fact that he struggling to make the Tigers team is a little worrying.
Kelepi Tanginoa – I think this kid is more prop than backrow, but he is a very powerful unit. He was rated one of the strongest at the club, which is no mean feat with Marty Taupau there. He was great for Manly before he got injured. He could easily be a bench prop option.

No Fly Zone 2019
Mitchell Aubusson – Very versatile, solid, but we are good on the edges.
Gavin Cooper – A QLD rep isn’t coming to be benched.
Chris Lawrence – Injury prone and overrated.
Ryan Matterson – I really like this guy. BUT, he has had major concussion issues this year.
Wade Graham – Great player, but we don’t have room for him.
Joe Greenwood – Headed back to England I believe.
Dean Britt – Was a Storm player, now a Bunny. Can’t crack the NRL.
Jed Cartwright – Yet another Cartwright from Penrith. Can’t crack the NRL.
Kenny Edwards – In trouble. Pass.
Lachlan Fitzgibbon – He is a Steve Menzies 2.0. Can score a try from the backrow. Can’t see how we fit him in though.
Manu Ma'u – I like Ma’u, he is a hardnosed player, and former New Zealand international. I’d love him here, but not sure how you fit him in.
Tepai Moeroa – He is not the second coming of Ian Hindmarsh.
Robbie Rochow – He is a journeyman, and was solid for the Tigers to start the year, but is falling off the pace.
Andre Savelio – Young guy from England that joined the Bronco’s and did his ACL.
Joe Stimson – He looks a talent, and has pushed Hoffman back to the bench. We don’t have room for him though.
Brad Takairangi – I don’t see what other do in Takairangi. Pass.
Siosifa Talakai – He left the Bunnies to join the Panthers during their injury crisis. Looked a handy player, but no more.
Frank Winterstein – Turned out to be Manly’s 4th choice backrower this year. Pass.
Felise Kaufusi – Is now a QLD representative player. We apparently chased him, but Im happy with who we have.

Young players with good reputations, but we need to win now: Josh Kerr, Andre Savelio, Sitili Tupouniua, Cruz Topai-Aveai, Joseph Vuna,

Players I have no information on: Joshua Curran

Ex-Raiders:
Joel Thompson – Been out of our system a while now, and not as good as what we have.
Michael Chee-Kam – Never played NRL here, only u20s. A handy player, can play centre, but pass.
Scott Sorensen – Ricky let him move on last year.

Options 2019:
Josh Aloiai – He has proved he can play edge or middle, and if Nathan Cleary can find space for him on a regular basis I’m happy to give him a run.
Kurt Capewell – Another solid backrow/ centre. A very solid depth option, especially as we are thin at centre.
Alex Glenn – A hardened NRL player, which like Bukuya, can play edge or middle. The last two years he played more lock off the bench than edge. Would be a very solid bench option. Cant see him leave Brisbane though.
Coen Hess – A QLD Origin player. A superstar player. If we could poach him, I’d find space.
Tariq Sims – Been a gun on the edge this year for the Dragons. However, has played more middle in recent years. Been a borderline Origin player for years. Provides mongrel and hard edge too.
Viliame Kikau – One of a number of players Penrith will have to try and hang onto in the next couple of seasons. He has excelled on the edge since the World Cup for Fiji. I would 100% find a way to fit him in if we could grab him.

Re-Sign existing:
Josh Papalii^ - Josh re-signed just recently.
Joseph Tapine – He is a starting New Zealand international. We would be crazy to let him go.

Final Thoughts:
As we have three starting players that are Internationals or Origin players, very hard to attract or fit in the top talent. So, really, we are looking for versatility and depth. However, if a stud wants to come here I’ll find room, as per my comments above.

As I’ve mentioned, I think given our backrow stocks, versatility is imperative going forward, so, my targets would be:
1. Tariq Sims – The best of the non-representative talent. At a club that might have him squeezed out for cap reasons due to success too.
2. Shaun Lane – A very under rated player.
3. Jayson Bukuya – Depending on player movements at Sharks, his value there will either go up or down. Woods, Lewis and Gallen are all corners in the Bukuya career journey.
4. Kelepi Tanginoa – Young, fearless and powerful. A genuine bench prop option.
5. Kurt Capewell – Doesn’t look a regular NRL player, but when given the opportunities he doesn’t disappoint, at either backrow or centre.
6. Sauaso Sue – A depth player with versatility.
7. Josh Aloiai - A depth player with versatility.

edwahu · Post by **edwahu** » June 19, 2018, 3:01 pm

The one position we don't need to worry about.

Post by **Matt** » June 19, 2018, 3:13 pm

edwahu wrote: ↑June 19, 2018, 3:01 pm The one position we don't need to worry about.

pretty much

PerthRaider86 · Post by **PerthRaider86** » June 19, 2018, 3:29 pm

Would love to have Hess join and move papalii to the front row with Sia

bonehead · Post by **bonehead** » June 19, 2018, 3:29 pm

get Jack Williams back

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zim · Post by **zim** » June 19, 2018, 3:51 pm

bonehead wrote: ↑June 19, 2018, 3:29 pm get Jack Williams back

I'd seriously consider that. He's pushed Capewell out of the side in recent weeks and looks like he's handling first grade well. He's solid enough to play lock too, and if John Bateman is actually on his way we are more in the market for those versatile bench players.

To me at the moment Hess is an expensive option that our cap can't afford. The kind of guy you go after if you're still running Jarrad Kennedy.
He's dropped off a fair bit this year too. Although I guess that's to be expected given how the side is going. Just doesn't look like he has his head in the game at the moment. Probably come storming back as one of the best forwards in the game when he hits that 25-26 mark.

bonehead · Post by **bonehead** » June 19, 2018, 4:25 pm

zim wrote:
bonehead wrote: ↑June 19, 2018, 3:29 pm get Jack Williams back
I'd seriously consider that. He's pushed Capewell out of the side in recent weeks and looks like he's handling first grade well. He's solid enough to play lock too, and if John Bateman is actually on his way we are more in the market for those versatile bench players.

To me at the moment Hess is an expensive option that our cap can't afford. The kind of guy you go after if you're still running Jarrad Kennedy.
He's dropped off a fair bit this year too. Although I guess that's to be expected given how the side is going. Just doesn't look like he has his head in the game at the moment. Probably come storming back as one of the best forwards in the game when he hits that 25-26 mark.

backrowers we are fairly flushed with so I see Williams as a guy who came from our system, is currently a bench/fringe player, looks to have decent upside, could maybe develop into a leg speed middle.

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edwahu · Post by **edwahu** » June 19, 2018, 4:30 pm

Kalani Going has played a fair bit of second row for Mounties this year. He might scrape into the top 30.

Botman · Post by **Botman** » June 19, 2018, 4:49 pm

Calling Lachy Fitzgibbon Menzies 2.0 is a WILDLY BOLD claim.
Goodness me