Team for 2018

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Sun Coast Raider
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Sun Coast Raider »

Seiffert82 wrote:
Sun Coast Raider wrote:Wighton isn't a ball player. His percentage on passing plays would be so low. He is capable of the odd brilliant thing but he has no consistency. Maybe his short passing game is better but I never really saw it when he was playing 5/8.

I do think it is a bit early for Cotric at FB under normal circumstances, but if it is a choice between more of the same or more involvement from Cotric I know which I would choose. Having said that it is a moot point as you said. He ain't moving. Hopefully he can find some consistency and with help improve his support play and positioning. Give Cotric a couple more years on the wing and see where we are at.
We'll, he's racked up the second highest and equal highest try assist tally for us the last 2 seasons. Yeah he makes mistakes, but he's a critical component of our attack for a reason.

He's not a one trick pony and he does it both sides of the field. In an attack that is often flat footed he hits the line at pace and he has the strength to put the defensive line in two minds when he has the ball.

I get there are a lot of Wighton haters out there. Sometimes it's clear I'm watching a different game to many people. That's OK, keeps life interesting. :)
I may have come off that way recently but genuinely not a Wighton hater. Want the guy to succeed but he has been underwhelming this year. No consistency in his play. Some of his mistakes have been quite critical too, leading directly to points or in important stages of games. Saying 35 errors doesn't tell the whole story nor does 9 TA -good but terribly low number to be equal top (not that its Jacks fault it's equal top). You would think too with the number of runs he has made his line breaks would be higher considering he is half decent at breaking tackles.

Considering his form in the last few rounds - effort definitely there - I wonder why he was so poor for so long. I still believe he needs help from a dedicated FB coach.
Either way you look at it he is not the kind of fullback that should prevent us from looking elsewhere.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Sizzle »

I mentioned this in another post - I think Wighton not only had a couple of errors in him during key parts of the game, but was regularly caught out of position. This resulted in either conceding dropouts, or starting our sets on the back foot. I believe that this combined with being equal last in forcing drop outs, courtesy of our halves, was a major contributor to the woes of 2017.

As already mentioned, Cotric probably won't be shifted, but he seems like he has a great read of the game and perhaps won't be caught out of position as often.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Brew »

edwahu wrote:
Raidersfan wrote:I for one can't wait for training to start for 2018

GO RAIDERS 2018 !!
I heard it's going to be the toughest pre-season ever!
It better be, flog them. And make them play a trial.


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Beejay
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Beejay »

I'm all for radical thinking, and i hope the club turns the tables over in their review of the season. But I can't get away from these undeniable truths;

We had almost no injuries and this team had it's combinations in place for almost all of the season.
We scored 3rd most points of any team in the comp.
If we improved our defence by 4 points a game, we make the top 4
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Beejay
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Beejay »

Also why not Wighton on the Wing? What's so special about him that means we have to move Croker..
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Green eyed Mick »

Beejay wrote:I'm all for radical thinking, and i hope the club turns the tables over in their review of the season. But I can't get away from these undeniable truths;

We had almost no injuries and this team had it's combinations in place for almost all of the season.
We scored 3rd most points of any team in the comp.
If we improved our defence by 4 points a game, we make the top 4
I think its even simpler than that. We play for 80 minutes more weeks than not we finish in the top 4. Gould hit the nail on the head on Saturday when he was blasting the Raiders for not showing up and complimenting the Storm at the same time. The storm play pretty much every minute of every game. It's why you have to beat them (as opposed to the Raiders who consistently beat themselves). The Raiders played close to 80 minutes in 4 or 5 games this year and we won them all, just like we would have given the Storm a run for their money on Saturday if we started the game with the attitude we had from the 20 minute mark.

We don't need radical thinking. We don't need changes to our defensive structures. We need to do the tough stuff in pre-season and we need to set standards and hold players accountable. Basic stuff but much easier said than done for a coach who has allowed standards to slide.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by edwahu »

We don't even have to play for 80. If we managed 40 in some of the games we probably would've made the top 4. There were plenty of weeks we only played near our best for 10 of 20 minutes a game.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Beejay »

The 'Fox NRL market watch' Podcast had Nate Myles on last week. He was talking about how much Melbourne do it differently to other clubs.
He let out a bit of information which he then said he might get in trouble for saying; All players have an app on their phone, and if they "miss an inside shoulder" they get an email about an hour after the game pointing the the mistake. They do way more video than he's done before, and most of it is on themself.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by jozzas »

Beejay wrote:The 'Fox NRL market watch' Podcast had Nate Myles on last week. He was talking about how much Melbourne do it differently to other clubs.
He let out a bit of information which he then said he might get in trouble for saying; All players have an app on their phone, and if they "miss an inside shoulder" they get an email about an hour after the game pointing the the mistake. They do way more video than he's done before, and most of it is on themself.
Imagine getting paid hundreds of thousands a year and being accountable for your mistakes!

All clubs should be doing this, and the players should be wanting it as well - as a professionals they should constantly be trying to improve weak areas in their game. I can imagine Cooper Cronk loves this stuff and studies it in depth and learns from it and trains constantly to eliminate his weaknesses. I wonder what the Raiders do?
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by bonehead »

Beejay wrote:Also why not Wighton on the Wing? What's so special about him that means we have to move Croker..
he'd be wasted on the wing

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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Northern Raider »

bonehead wrote:
Beejay wrote:Also why not Wighton on the Wing? What's so special about him that means we have to move Croker..
he'd be wasted on the wing

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What does that mean?

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Re: Team for 2018

Post by bonehead »

Northern Raider wrote:
bonehead wrote:
Beejay wrote:Also why not Wighton on the Wing? What's so special about him that means we have to move Croker..
he'd be wasted on the wing

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i thought it pretty obvious.
2nd in the team for try assists
best defensive back at the club

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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Northern Raider »

bonehead wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:
bonehead wrote:
Beejay wrote:Also why not Wighton on the Wing? What's so special about him that means we have to move Croker..
he'd be wasted on the wing

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i thought it pretty obvious.
2nd in the team for try assists
best defensive back at the club

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No. Its not obvious. Our 2 best players in 2017 were the wingers. Maybe we are wasting them on the win too.

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Re: Team for 2018

Post by bonehead »

Northern Raider wrote:
bonehead wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:
bonehead wrote:
Beejay wrote:Also why not Wighton on the Wing? What's so special about him that means we have to move Croker..
he'd be wasted on the wing

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i thought it pretty obvious.
2nd in the team for try assists
best defensive back at the club

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No. Its not obvious. Our 2 best players in 2017 were the wingers. Maybe we are wasting them on the win too.

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my wighton to centre only comes on the back of people wanting cotric to fullback, imo if you move jack then it's to centre and croker has to play wing.
Nothing about Wighton or Croker indicates either are a winger.
I'd be leaving our 1 to 7 alone.

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Re: Team for 2018

Post by nemesis »

if taylor does not stay then I would try this

1. cotric
2. oldfield/ottio
3. croker
4. leilua
5. rapana
6. Austin
7. sezar
8. boyd
9. hodgson
10. gubb
11. papa
12. whitehead
13. wighton could chime in in the backline and ball play in the middle and whack guys all game in defense ( also move to the backs if we get an injury there )

14. baptiste
15. Paulo
16. tapine
17. soliola
raider 4 life
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by edwahu »

Beejay wrote:The 'Fox NRL market watch' Podcast had Nate Myles on last week. He was talking about how much Melbourne do it differently to other clubs.
He let out a bit of information which he then said he might get in trouble for saying; All players have an app on their phone, and if they "miss an inside shoulder" they get an email about an hour after the game pointing the the mistake. They do way more video than he's done before, and most of it is on themself.
Apparently we are one of the more professional clubs in terms of set up off the park and the only club apart from Melbourne who are genuinely full time, in that the players show up each day and stay 9-5. We also spend the most of any club on football operations.

Who knows why all this utterly fails to translate into professionalism on the field but if I had to guess it's probably down to recruitment.
legend
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by legend »

Wighton at five eighth has to be the biggest joke ever, right? He was running at pace on Saturday night and simply dropped the ball. He does that **** all the time. It boggles the mind some people think he is the answer to our attacking woes and putting him at five eighth is the answer. Give me a **** break! I mean seriously, are you people EDIT? :shock:

The only place I would move Wighton to is lock and drop Tapine back to the bench to give us at least a little impact or push Papa into starting prop and rotate Boyd and Paulo with Tapine and Whitehead in the second row, Wighton at lock and Cotric at fullback. I bet you we win at least four more games with that combination.

Do an honest assessment and see which teams have improved their roster for next year and a few of them sit below us. We've added Gubb and lost Taylor. Definitely not an upgrade. Our bench is weak. Bateman and Priest have gone back to mediocre NSW cup players who offer little when they are on the field, other than ineffective hit ups or stupid errors. They are not alone on the last part though.

The Knights will push hard for a top eight spot next year and a fully fit Cowboys are closer to a top four side than we are. Saints have added Hunt and Graham and lost Dugan. A win on three fronts. I can't see where we have improved enough to move above tenth. Even the Warriors have improved with Beale and Blair on their way to N.Z. I'm not sure which team would fall out of the eight to make way for us?

I think this side would be better suited for the fast pace of the NRL:

Cotric
Oldfield
Croker
BJ
Rapana
Austin
Sezer
Wighton
Tapine
Whitehead
Papalii
Hodgson
Boyd

Paulo
Baptiste
Gubb
Taylor/Soliola/Bateman/Priest
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greeneyed
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by greeneyed »

So you want to put our best second rower to prop... when he's failed in the role before. Why would you put Jack Wighton into the middle forwards!? Why does Gubb get an uncontested spot... when Taylor/Soliola don't?! Gubb was a regular reserve grader at the Warriors! The Warriors!

And what makes you think Oldfield is a first string winger?!
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by LP Raider »

Lock and prop is the same position, yeh.

Maybe Jack just needs to work harder in the fullback roll in the off season or he finds himself out of a job.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by LP Raider »

greeneyed wrote:So you want to put our best second rower to prop... when he's failed in the role before. Why would you put Jack Wighton into the middle forwards!? Why does Gubb get an uncontested spot... when Taylor/Soliola don't?! Gubb was a regular reserve grader at the Warriors! The Warriors!

And what makes you think Oldfield is a first string winger?!
Talk about biggest joke ever, this definitely deserves a Good Grief.
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legend
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by legend »

Oldfield was impressive in the game he played for us. I think he deserves a shot to make it his own and after the season we've had, changes need to be made.

I think our props are both too big to be playing together at the start of the match They tire too easily and other teams exploit that. Gallen spoke of it before they played us at home this year and then proceeded to give us our biggest loss of the year.

Wighton is not a fullback. Pure and simple. Cotric can be a massive upgrade at the position. If Wighton can add five kilos he would be an effective lock. He can defend well and has good size and speed. He's a bit light at the moment but could transition quite easily IMO.

Gubb was on the bench for the Warriors and actually goes well on the field. I doubt he owuld have signed for an opportunity to play first grade. He will be a definite starter on the bench.

Papa plays the middle very well and offloads better than any other forward IMO. Why would the move to prop make that much of a difference? It's much of a muchness these days.

If Taylor stays then he gets a bench spot. Soliola is a liability and was useless upon his return from suspension. He's too old and makes too many mistakes, and along with a lengthy suspension, makes him a liability. Release him.

How's that?
legend
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by legend »

LP Raider wrote:Lock and prop is the same position, yeh.

Maybe Jack just needs to work harder in the fullback roll in the off season or he finds himself out of a job.
Who said lock and prop are the same position? Read it again, EDIT! :cmon

I said Papa up to prop from second row and one of the props to rotate off the bench. Neither one can go at full speed longer than ten minutes Papa can last a lot longer than that and would be big enough to play prop in any other side in the NRL. It would also only be for the opening stanza.

It baffles me this club could attract so many stupid supporters. I thought we were better than that.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Rickmando »

jozzas wrote:
Beejay wrote:The 'Fox NRL market watch' Podcast had Nate Myles on last week. He was talking about how much Melbourne do it differently to other clubs.
He let out a bit of information which he then said he might get in trouble for saying; All players have an app on their phone, and if they "miss an inside shoulder" they get an email about an hour after the game pointing the the mistake. They do way more video than he's done before, and most of it is on themself.
Imagine getting paid hundreds of thousands a year and being accountable for your mistakes!

All clubs should be doing this, and the players should be wanting it as well - as a professionals they should constantly be trying to improve weak areas in their game. I can imagine Cooper Cronk loves this stuff and studies it in depth and learns from it and trains constantly to eliminate his weaknesses. I wonder what the Raiders do?
Read their own press, by the looks of the way they often come out and play the week after a win.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by yeh raiders »

I'd hate to see us turf Jack Wighton having not given him a serious crack in his best position, Centre.

He looked deadly there in 2013 while Croker was injured and he has the potential to become one of the games best centres. Compare our performance last weekend with the 2013 game against the Storm where Wighton absolutely schooled Will Chambers.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Sydney_Raider »

Just as a matter of interest, what players from the team that took the field on Saturday night would you NOT consider worthy of being replaced if the necessary talent was available? I have Cotric, Rapana, Whitehead, Papalii, Tapine and Hodgson as the only ones I would definitely pick in my 17. Keen to hear the views of others.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by yeh raiders »

From that 17, I can't base my opinion on 1 game that meant little to us. So overall..... Cotric, Rapana, BJ, Papalii, Hodgo, Tapine, Wighton, Taylor (no idea why we can't use this guy properly... he gets about 10 minutes a game).

Those are the players in our team who are elite or capable of becoming elite players IMO. The rest I view as being a class below, so they're replaceable.

Wighton's an interesting one. He's capable of becoming elite and there are times when he looks that way. He's a game breaker, with positional and confidence issues. Only getting worse by playing him at fullback
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by edwahu »

Sydney_Raider wrote:Just as a matter of interest, what players from the team that took the field on Saturday night would you NOT consider worthy of being replaced if the necessary talent was available? I have Cotric, Rapana, Whitehead, Papalii, Tapine and Hodgson as the only ones I would definitely pick in my 17. Keen to hear the views of others.
I would replace all of them if the necessary talent was available and we could get it.

I would say Papalii, Hodgson and Cotric are the three that I think the club wouldn't be able to replace. Two elite players and one who looks that way and represents a huge investment from the club. Rapana plays at that level but ultimately we could adapt if we lost him.

That assumes that they were far more competent with recruitment then they have been recently. The problem is we have switched to downgrades any time we let someone go for the last 18 months.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Seiffert82 »

**** some of you blokes are melodramatic!

Less than 12 months ago, 15 of the 17 that ran out against the Storm on Saturday lost a prelim final to the same team by 2 points. This same squad basically missed out on a grand final last season by 2 points.

The only changes were Cotric in for Lee (massive upgrade) and Taylor in for Vaughan. If Cotric was in this team last year instead of Lee we could quite easily have been grand finalists.

You dead set thinking that blowing this squad up is the answer? C'mon now. :lol:

This team needs an attitude adjustment and some decent coaching, not a complete overhaul.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Sydney_Raider »

Seiffert82 wrote:**** some of you blokes are melodramatic!

Less than 12 months ago, 15 of the 17 that ran out against the Storm on Saturday lost a prelim final to the same team by 2 points. This same squad basically missed out on a grand final last season by 2 points.

The only changes were Cotric in for Lee (massive upgrade) and Taylor in for Vaughan. If Cotric was in this team last year instead of Lee we could quite easily have been grand finalists.

You dead set thinking that blowing this squad up is the answer? C'mon now. :lol:

This team needs an attitude adjustment and some decent coaching, not a complete overhaul.
Not the point of the question at all. Not looking for a complete overhaul, just interested to read other supporters perceptions of the squad.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Rickmando »

Half agree.

Definitely attitude adjustment/ better coaching / some nuance to the tactics game plan should be first order of business.

But I think the fullness of time will show that the second half of 2016 was the peak, where a whole bunch of confidence players hit top form all at once, and we had the luxury of coming from the clouds before teams "worked us out" (worst excuse ever by the way - of course teams were going to study up on us this season). And throw in an incredibly soft draw to boot.

The problem with a lot of our roster is that they either have a limited ceiling (hence the lack of origin reps) OR the gap between their ceiling and floor is too large and is exposed across a 26 round competition. I'll let you decide which players fall into which category, but for mine I only have Cotric, Rapana, Papalli and Paulo who don't fall into either category and that makes them elite in their positions.

Not having an elite (or close to elite) half will condemn us to be also rans for as long as we don't have one.

Im not saying we should, and in a salary cap situation it's near on impossible, but theoretically everyone apart from the three above could be upgraded upon if the situation presented itself (and the price was right). It's the only way to improve.
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edwahu

Re: Team for 2018

Post by edwahu »

Seiffert82 wrote:**** some of you blokes are melodramatic!

Less than 12 months ago, 15 of the 17 that ran out against the Storm on Saturday lost a prelim final to the same team by 2 points. This same squad basically missed out on a grand final last season by 2 points.

The only changes were Cotric in for Lee (massive upgrade) and Taylor in for Vaughan. If Cotric was in this team last year instead of Lee we could quite easily have been grand finalists.

You dead set thinking that blowing this squad up is the answer? C'mon now. :lol:

This team needs an attitude adjustment and some decent coaching, not a complete overhaul.
The question wasn't who do you want to get rid of, it was who you'd replace of the necessary talent (e.g better) was available.
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Seiffert82
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Seiffert82 »

Yeah, you may be right. I just see a team that generally under-performed for much of 2017. Their form was terrible early and improved to passable as the season went on.

Not to say we can't upgrade on some positions, but the core of a decent team is there if they pull their fingers out.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Finchy »

yeh raiders wrote:I'd hate to see us turf Jack Wighton having not given him a serious crack in his best position, Centre.

He looked deadly there in 2013 while Croker was injured and he has the potential to become one of the games best centres. Compare our performance last weekend with the 2013 game against the Storm where Wighton absolutely schooled Will Chambers.
He's had a fair crack. Croker only missed 3 games in the middle of 2013, a year in which Wighton played 9 games at centre. He'd played 3 games at centre the year before, and 8 the following year (20 total). I'd say it's a reasonable crack.
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by Dibbers »

edwahu wrote:
This team needs an attitude adjustment and some decent coaching, not a complete overhaul.

The question wasn't who do you want to get rid of, it was who you'd replace of the necessary talent (e.g better) was available.
Would that not be the same as asking "Who in the current 17 isn't the best in their position?" because realistically (Not factoring in Salary Cap obviously) if a talent was attainable that was better then who we had playing there currently, wouldn't you naturally want to upgrade? for example, Hodgeson for many is a keeper... but if Cam Smith said he wanted to sign for us tomorrow on the same money as Hodgo, would you not sign him? Extreme example yes, but thats essentially what your asking?

Not trying to stir the pot, just trying to understand your question..
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Re: Team for 2018

Post by yeh raiders »

Finchy wrote:
yeh raiders wrote:I'd hate to see us turf Jack Wighton having not given him a serious crack in his best position, Centre.

He looked deadly there in 2013 while Croker was injured and he has the potential to become one of the games best centres. Compare our performance last weekend with the 2013 game against the Storm where Wighton absolutely schooled Will Chambers.
He's had a fair crack. Croker only missed 3 games in the middle of 2013, a year in which Wighton played 9 games at centre. He'd played 3 games at centre the year before, and 8 the following year (20 total). I'd say it's a reasonable crack.
Permanent spot, from round 1 is what I'm talking about. He was a gun there previously and I don't see any reason why he can't do it again. He was only moved because he's such a talent and Ricky has had holes to fill in spine positions.
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