Going backwards

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Ultima
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Going backwards

Post by Ultima »

So now that we have had a repeat of 2015, how much do you think we are actually going backwards? 24 months? Is the start of next year basically 2015 so we can expect another mirror image or have we crawled all the way up to start of 2016? End of 2016?

We peaked just before the finals last year and haven't returned to that since. Like 2015 if there was 4 points difference in a few games we would be in the top 4 instead of planning our vacation in Bali.

Our roster is pretty much on par with where it was at the end of 2015 except we have zero depth. This year we had the least injuries and most stable roaster of any club, and still didn't make the finals. Next year our roster is, exactly the **** same 1-13 with some new faces on the bench as we are giving up even more depth to keep the starting 13 who can't even make the **** finals...

Look at every other club that didn't make the finals this year, are they keeping their starting 13 and just hoping something will click like we are? That somehow doing the same thing over and over again will come up a winner eventually?

Is there even a solution to this now? Have we dug ourselves into a hole we aren't getting out of or does our roster have the skill, just not the guidance?

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Re: Going Backwards

Post by Bay53 »

That is a question that won't be answered until this time next year.

I think we all expected we would go far better than we have. It felt that we went into the season underdone but when we were 4-3 after a really good win against the Warriors I thought we were on track.

We won 2 of our next 7 games when really we should have won them all.
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Re: Going Backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

Cue the mental midgets, keyboard warriors, grandstand coaches and trolls :rant :woot: :rant
haha
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Re: Going Backwards

Post by edwahu »

If we don't lose anyone and manage to pick up some reasonable depth I reckon we will have a good year. I think watching the semis will get a bit of hunger going and we have a few key players who I expect will peak next year.

The draw and injuries obviously plays a huge factor as well.
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Re: Going Backwards

Post by Pete Cash »

I think the last month or so gave me some hope for next year but there has to be something done about the mental issues. What the hell happened after the manly game ???

I mentioned elsewhere that BJ looks like an entirely different player over the last month than he did during the middle of the season. He finished the year really strongly where he looked like a garbage man for a while.

I think we look settled with Tapine in the backrow and Whitehead at lock.

We are desperate for 1 or 2 decent props (especially if paulo goes which would be a disaster)
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Re: Going backwards

Post by FROG »

It's actually not as dire as many think. I am sure there will be changes to our roster... If we are indeed over the cap then it means that we have a few players drastically overpaid. Clearly one of our highest paid players needs to be moved on and we need to go to market to get value for money. I could suggest names but it's pointless without knowing what they are getting paid. If for example Shannon Boyd was getting paid 700k then I'd seriously consider moving him on (despite the fact I actually rate the kid). If he's on 400k (which is what he should be on max) then he'd be worth hanging onto. There are people whose job is to sort through this and our staff are meant to be the best in the business.. I guess time will tell!
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

^^^
Good posts ed, Pete and Frogy
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Re: Going backwards

Post by gangrenous »

FROG wrote:It's actually not as dire as many think. I am sure there will be changes to our roster... If we are indeed over the cap then it means that we have a few players drastically overpaid. Clearly one of our highest paid players needs to be moved on and we need to go to market to get value for money. I could suggest names but it's pointless without knowing what they are getting paid. If for example Shannon Boyd was getting paid 700k then I'd seriously consider moving him on (despite the fact I actually rate the kid). If he's on 400k (which is what he should be on max) then he'd be worth hanging onto. There are people whose job is to sort through this and our staff are meant to be the best in the business.. I guess time will tell!
I don't know how many times I see a similar thing posted. When you've signed a player on more than they deserve, you can't just move them on unless you can find someone willing to match it or pay more, or have the player leave cash on the table. Which you won't, and they won't.

When you sign them the mistake is already made.

I think signing Wighton on spine money to 2020 was a very bad decision.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by RedRaider »

At the end of Round 25 the Raiders Points For is 552 or 3rd in the NRL. The Raiders points against is 465 or 10th in the NRL.

We have failed defensively in 2017. Poor completions should impact mainly on attack. Poor forward platforms should impact on attack. Poor tactical kicking options should impact on attack.
Nope - our issue is our DEFENSE. The stand and watch style line speed, the lack of ability/coaching to lock up the football, staggered kick chase, structure problems which other coaches have exploited, no one ever gets dropped for poor defensive outcomes.

Very disappointed to hear Sticky say after the Knights match that he saw 'No problems with our defensive structures.' Sticky the Wooden Spoon side just put 28 points on us. They average in attack 17.8 points for and they put 28 past us. Sticky again spoke about our completions. Yes if they are higher it means less defense but he is just not seeing that we are poor defensively. He will not drop players for poor defense and he will not drop the coaches for poor defensive outcome. The result of this is that we are not in the finals in 2017 when we have the side to be there.

Sticky has his head in the sand. DEFENSE is our big problem. We are 10th in the comp in this area. Head Coach - Fix It.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by dubby »

Agreed, red.

Defence = attitude and vice versa.

Bloody shame no Dave Taylor next year either as he is very good in attack.

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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raiden »

Good post OP.

Look at the Roosters for example, top 4, in with a chance this year and oh, adding Tedesco next year. A lot, if not almost all clubs are tinkering, wheeling and dealing, trying to get on Storm's level. Our club reeks of complacency from the top down. Talk around it all you want but that's what it is. It's hard to get excited for next year when there was no excuse for this year other than that. Listening to the crap they feed to the media about how they are so great and the close losses will fix themselves every single week. We seem so mentally weak, playing at the other teams level no matter the quality of the side before they beat us on experience.

How do you go from 2nd to 10th? There is no threat to key positions and they are showing it, some more than others. There needs to be a greater sense of urgency next year, something that was missing all year with this belief that we'll 'come good'. With a few players off-contract maybe that will actually happen. Maybe if we are half active on the player market some players will demand to take control of games. Hopefully some form of accountability will come into play over the off-season. Do you think it was a coincidence D. Taylor was our best player this year? On a one year deal?

Players are motivated in different ways but it's not hard to see when you lock down a whole team for a few years who some would say overachieved in 2016, this inherent self-belief and lack of urgency can co-exist. That's my theory anyway. The other theory is we are just ****.

Sorry for the negativity but it has to be said. This year was so promising for so many reasons, they blew it.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

^^^
I understand what you are saying RR but the Knights picked up their game towards the end of the season .. they put 29 past Parra, 21 against StMerge and 22 past Bris.

But yes I agree about our line speed which has the been the biggest annoying factor for me this season.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by greeneyed »

Dave Taylor was nowhere near the Raiders best player in 2017, he only played a handful of games.

There's a pretty strong risk that he wouldn't play more games next season if his contract was extended... and that's why the club isn't going to pay overs. They can't afford to anyway due to the cap... but you don't pay big dollars to a player who only plays a handful of games on the bench. He's had some good games at the back end of the season, made a good impact. It was good to see his dedication to turn things around.

But Jordan Rapana, Nick Cotric, Junior Paulo, Josh Papalii... they have been the best players this season.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

Raiden wrote:Sorry for the negativity but it has to be said. This year was so promising for so many reasons, they blew it.
I have no concerns with your "negativity" mate .. let's face it we all expected and thought we were entitled to something more rewarding as supporters. I would expect those in charge to take responsibility and rectify matters for a more successful 2018 .. I for one can't wait for the preseason stuff.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raiden »

greeneyed wrote:Dave Taylor was nowhere near the Raiders best player in 2017, he only played a handful of games.

There's a pretty strong risk that he wouldn't play more games next season if his contract was extended... and that's why the club isn't going to pay overs. They can't afford to anyway due to the cap... but you don't pay big dollars to a player who only plays a handful of games on the bench. He's had some good games at the back end of the season, made a good impact. It was good to see his dedication to turn things around.

But Jordan Rapana, Nick Cotric, Junior Paulo, Josh Papalii... they have been the best players this season.
My point was he was playing for a contract. And he got one. Nothing to do about Raiders retaining him. I personally thought in the games he played, he was in that calibre of players you've mentioned. He was arguably the best player in both the Dragons, Panthers games.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Beejay »

RedRaider wrote:At the end of Round 25 the Raiders Points For is 552 or 3rd in the NRL. The Raiders points against is 465 or 10th in the NRL.

We have failed defensively in 2017. Poor completions should impact mainly on attack. Poor forward platforms should impact on attack. Poor tactical kicking options should impact on attack.
Nope - our issue is our DEFENSE. The stand and watch style line speed, the lack of ability/coaching to lock up the football, staggered kick chase, structure problems which other coaches have exploited, no one ever gets dropped for poor defensive outcomes.

Very disappointed to hear Sticky say after the Knights match that he saw 'No problems with our defensive structures.' Sticky the Wooden Spoon side just put 28 points on us. They average in attack 17.8 points for and they put 28 past us. Sticky again spoke about our completions. Yes if they are higher it means less defense but he is just not seeing that we are poor defensively. He will not drop players for poor defense and he will not drop the coaches for poor defensive outcome. The result of this is that we are not in the finals in 2017 when we have the side to be there.

Sticky has his head in the sand. DEFENSE is our big problem. We are 10th in the comp in this area. Head Coach - Fix It.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

^^^
you guys really think what Stuart says at the pressy is how he will address his players ??
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Beejay »

Raidersfan wrote:^^^
you guys really think what Stuart says at the pressy is how he will address his players ??
I certainly hope not
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Re: Going backwards

Post by greeneyed »

Clearly not... but if you listen to what the players say each week... you know the conclusion being reached behind closed doors. They all say the same thing. Too often they were saying... we just need a bit more luck, we're playing well, if we get one win more will come etc. It's why we're sitting where we are now.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

greeneyed wrote:Clearly not... but if you listen to what the players say each week... you know the conclusion being reached behind closed doors. They all say the same thing. Too often they were saying... we just need a bit more luck, we're playing well, if we get one win more will come etc. It's why we're sitting where we are now.
Player talk ge .. you know "week in week out" , " one game at a time" , " we're just concentrating on ourselves" , " we've trained well" , "the boys played good"
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Beejay »

Well we went into the season with a tactic of making our defence passive, and allowing the game to move quickly. The object to get it to go both ways, so we can attack the way we want.
This tactic did not work.

We had a very similar tactic last year, but we played almost perfect football. The defence was the worst part of our game last year, but we obviously decided it was all part of it.
I really hoped we changed it this year. We didn't, and in hindsight, I hope Sticky looks at it and goes "what the **** was I thinking when all the teams that have won the comp for the last 10 years have had rushing defence and borderline cheating in the ruck".
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Re: Going backwards

Post by julian87 »

Broken record but if you don't squad manage and improve you don't replivate and you don't move forward.

We replaced Vaughan, Fensom, Lee and a few others with reserve graders and a busted Taylor.

If we roll into '18 releasing players and signing rejects we're not even close to competing for the actual prize.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by FROG »

gangrenous wrote:
FROG wrote:It's actually not as dire as many think. I am sure there will be changes to our roster... If we are indeed over the cap then it means that we have a few players drastically overpaid. Clearly one of our highest paid players needs to be moved on and we need to go to market to get value for money. I could suggest names but it's pointless without knowing what they are getting paid. If for example Shannon Boyd was getting paid 700k then I'd seriously consider moving him on (despite the fact I actually rate the kid). If he's on 400k (which is what he should be on max) then he'd be worth hanging onto. There are people whose job is to sort through this and our staff are meant to be the best in the business.. I guess time will tell!
I don't know how many times I see a similar thing posted. When you've signed a player on more than they deserve, you can't just move them on unless you can find someone willing to match it or pay more, or have the player leave cash on the table. Which you won't, and they won't.

When you sign them the mistake is already made.

I think signing Wighton on spine money to 2020 was a very bad decision.
Mate I appreciate what you are saying, but I genuinely believe you are better to take your medicine once you've realised your mistake and move underperforming players on rather than hang onto them. It was a key pillar of penriths and even the dragons rebuilds, moving on the Morris brothers, Merrin etc. The Bulldogs debacle (ie 2017 version) is the consequence of a number of horible recruitment/retention decisions and an inability to act on them. It was clear to everyone their spine weren't gelling in 2016 but they burned 12 months cause no one was prepared to do something about it

And for the record I agree with you re. Wighton... But the difficulty in having this discussion is that neither of us have the faintest idea what he is earning. At 300k you'd not be complaining. At 700k you would be 100% correct.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by gangrenous »

But we have no space to work with in the cap to really achieve what you're thinking. Take Wighton for example, if you think he's worth 400k and being paid 700k. You get another team to pay him 400k and you're out 300k. So you can still only afford to go out and buy a 400k player... which is what Wighton is and you're still where you left off. Except there are more angry fans and team mates than you had before.

I guess you could take a punt on a young guy like Cotric accepting less money for a while if you had someone in mind. Fairly ballsy gamble though. Especially with a team that should be challenging now.

I guess if we underperformed again in the first half 2018 I'd be more on board with rolling the dice on unknowns.

I think the Wighton resigning is a particularly troublesome is it limits the possibility of switching a more known quantity of Cotric in. If you tried him out and he killed it, you still can't really afford to have him there as you'll be paying 5 spine wages up until the end of 2020.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by legend »

When you consider we have the second highest point scorer and two players in the top ten for tries scored, for me it has to be an attitude problem and for that the blame rests equally with the coach, board, management and players.

On the surface it looked like the Raiders expected to just roll on like they did in the latter parts of 2016 without realising the opposition now had enough on tape to find ways to beat us, let alone us beating ourselves.

If I was to give a fair assessment of our spine as a unit, it would be a 2/10. The lack of urgency, leadership and execution was a disgrace when you look at the season as a whole. It's hard to say who is the most culpable of the four. I believe Wighton put in the most effort but was the worst performing player of our spine, possibly the entire team. Hodgson was rubbish bar a few games and regressed horribly. Most people wanted Sezer released and I believe the nonchalant attitude of Austin is cause for concern.

I think mad Monday should be cancelled and the team should be flogged until the grand final. Pretty sure Stuart did that with Parramatta.

As for Stuart, one season in four making the finals is a woeful record but we chose to extend his contract. Where was the due diligence and what KPI's were put in place for Stuart to deserve an extension?

Our retention and recruitment has been disgraceful. This rests with Stuart, Furner and Mulholland. Our juniors, traditionally a strength of the club are below mediocre and we have managed the cap poorly.

So many questions, so many apologists and so few willing to be accountable for their actions. Oh and so many fans accepting of the status quo.

Installing a big horn does not a season make...
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Re: Going backwards

Post by T_R »

Ouch, but hard to argue with any of that

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Re: Going backwards

Post by FROG »

Agreed with everything apart from being critical of the fans. Can see what the fans have to do with anything, apart from occasionally displaying blind faith in the hope we could be wrong. As we were in 2016..
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Rickmando »

Bang. Check your net Raiders, legend has just gone 1-0 up
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

^^^^ Legend
We all have our own opinions on 2017 going into 2018 and they are just that, opinions,

I 100% agree that 2017 was a disappointment due to the bar being raised after 2017. And I agree that admin, management, coach and players need to be made accountable if they want to continue the support from those in the stands.

However I have a more positive outlook for the future. A successful 2018 (which doesn't necessarily mean a premiership) and all the current talk and negative vibe will be forgotten .. and that is where I'm placing my bets. If 2018 is a copy of 2017 changes need to be made.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by legend »

If fans are accepting of mediocrity, then the club and players feel they are doing just fine. The fans should and need to be heard when we are performing poorly but I read on Facebook and cop it from time to time because I dare to criticise players and the club for some of the losses we endured this year.

Fans pay good money and sometimes travel long hours to watch their team play and for that, they have earned the right to bag the club when they don't put in. Change won't happen when the fans continue to accept the status quo, which is mediocrity regardless of all Stuarts empty platitudes and assurances things would be fixed. Nothing was fixed and nothing changed. No one was dropped for performing poorly as we didn't have the depth to make changes.

Fans who follow the team blindly and without question and say "oh well, we'll be back bigger and better next year" make change and accountability that much harder.

A fish rots from the head down and the fact Stuart had the arrogance to dismiss the nines and the pre-season spoke volumes about where our season was heading.

There are some militant facebook groups who are run by imbeciles who refuse to allow any constructive criticism of the team and if you do, well you cop some pretty vile abuse both in public and in private.

I feel as a fan I have the right to be critical of a season like this and am happy to put my money where my mouth is and will be unloading on the podcast this week now we are out of finals contention.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by legend »

Raidersfan wrote:^^^^ Legend
We all have our own opinions on 2017 going into 2018 and they are just that, opinions,

I 100% agree that 2017 was a disappointment due to the bar being raised after 2017. And I agree that admin, management, coach and players need to be made accountable if they want to continue the support from those in the stands.

However I have a more positive outlook for the future. A successful 2018 (which doesn't necessarily mean a premiership) and all the current talk and negative vibe will be forgotten .. and that is where I'm placing my bets. If 2018 is a copy of 2017 changes need to be made.
You choose to set the bar a lot lower than I do. That's the difference between me and you and the reason why we haven't won a premiership since 1994. You seem to view success as making the top eight. I demand a premiership given we got so close with pretty much the same team we had last year.

How we measure success is a monument to the lacklustre attitude of the club at every level, which has now permeated into the psyche of the fans, given success has been such a barren landscape for so long.

I refuse to buy into that psyche given the players that delivered us success and what they gave to win us each of those three glorious premierships.

If you can tell me that Austin, Sezer, BJ et al bleed green like Daley, Meninga, Clyde, Croker, Walters, Furner and co did, then we are watching a different team. Some of our team are mercenaries where others such as Croker, Papalii, Cotric and Wighton (for all his faults) I do believe bleed green for the club and would feel humiliated by our slithering exit from the 2017 finals race. Some of the others would already be mentally partying in Vegas, Bali etc and will no doubt mail the last one in against Melbourne.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Raidersfan »

^^^
Ultimate success is a premiership but history will tell you the ultimate prize is extremely difficult to a achieve.

Supporters will always want a premiership however the days of 11 premierships in a row are long gone. A top 4 position is not a failure.

Game day experience that brings back fans is also part of success.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by legend »

Why is it we are competitive one year in four yet other teams like the Storm, Broncos, Roosters, Cowboys and Sharks are in there swinging for the fences every year? We've had the juniors and development systems in place but our success has been bi-polar.

I'm not at all comfortable being lumped with the Knights, Tigers, Warriors and Titans as perpetual also rans.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by edwahu »

legend wrote:Why is it we are competitive one year in four yet other teams like the Storm, Broncos, Roosters, Cowboys and Sharks are in there swinging for the fences every year? We've had the juniors and development systems in place but our success has been bi-polar.

I'm not at all comfortable being lumped with the Knights, Tigers, Warriors and Titans as perpetual also rans.
There is probably about 5 to 10 million difference in what players earn at the first 5 clubs vs the last.

Why do we have a squad with 1 origin player which is maxxing the cap vs some of those clubs which have half a dozen? Is it all bad management or is there something inherently unbalanced with the comp?
Last edited by edwahu on August 28, 2017, 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Going backwards

Post by Green eyed Mick »

legend wrote:When you consider we have the second highest point scorer and two players in the top ten for tries scored, for me it has to be an attitude problem and for that the blame rests equally with the coach, board, management and players.

On the surface it looked like the Raiders expected to just roll on like they did in the latter parts of 2016 without realising the opposition now had enough on tape to find ways to beat us, let alone us beating ourselves.

If I was to give a fair assessment of our spine as a unit, it would be a 2/10. The lack of urgency, leadership and execution was a disgrace when you look at the season as a whole. It's hard to say who is the most culpable of the four. I believe Wighton put in the most effort but was the worst performing player of our spine, possibly the entire team. Hodgson was rubbish bar a few games and regressed horribly. Most people wanted Sezer released and I believe the nonchalant attitude of Austin is cause for concern.

I think mad Monday should be cancelled and the team should be flogged until the grand final. Pretty sure Stuart did that with Parramatta.

As for Stuart, one season in four making the finals is a woeful record but we chose to extend his contract. Where was the due diligence and what KPI's were put in place for Stuart to deserve an extension?

Our retention and recruitment has been disgraceful. This rests with Stuart, Furner and Mulholland. Our juniors, traditionally a strength of the club are below mediocre and we have managed the cap poorly.

So many questions, so many apologists and so few willing to be accountable for their actions. Oh and so many fans accepting of the status quo.

Installing a big horn does not a season make...
One glaring omission in your summary is the performance of our middle 3rd forwards. They were rubbish as a unit this year. There were only a handful of games where Boyd and Paulo both played close to their best and when they did we usually won those games quite convincingly.

As to your solution. The problem with Sticky changing tactics at this point is the players have become accustomed to his 'no accountability, excuses for all' mentality. If he tries a tougher more restrictive approach he runs the risk of putting a few noses out of joint and making things worse. If he doesn't change tactics theres a pretty good chance nothing will change in 2018 and our window will be closed.
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