Are other teams back the ten?

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BadnMean
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by BadnMean » May 29, 2017, 10:54 pm

Green eyed Mick wrote:I wonder if this kind of technology could ever give us a way to get things like forward passes and offside calls correct?

Would you want this kind of technology? It would make the game less exciting if every thing except the ruck was determined by computer.

http://www.nrl.com/player-trackers-to-r ... fault.aspx
Forward passes will never "look" correct because of the physics involved and the subjectivity of deciding whether a ball "went backward from the hands"- even in cricket, hawkeye requires metres of tracking data and 6 different cameras trained on the (in cricket, quite predictable within a pretty set 22 yard area) exact place a ball might land. And the cost is huge.

Can we cover an entire league ground? No.

Why don't we just "microchip the ball"- people love this one. No-one has ever explained how in actual fact this might work to the minute scale require of rugby league or how it might me implemented or costed. But it's great pub talk. NRL would be the first sport in the world to do so. Considering the NRL are 10 years behind ideas in digital rights and media platforms, I somehow doubt it.

The data provided by tracking at the moment is dubious- useful from a club or media POV but if challenged on the basis of a ruling or premiership etc it's Bull at the RL level for forward passes (offside? Not sure).

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gangrenous » May 30, 2017, 6:49 am

I can't be bothered opening the link again, but from memory the tech discussed is RFID tags which is essentially micro chipping the players (and the ball). You are right you wouldn't use cameras.

You'd have to have meters in the ball measuring position and speed. Also pressure to determine someone holding it. Should be doable.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Raidersfan » May 30, 2017, 9:16 am

^^^^
Supporters could download an app to check the trajectory of the ball .. I'm in on this !!
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by edwahu » May 30, 2017, 10:09 am

greeneyed wrote:The whole panel agreed, Ricky was right. One of them even said, the NRL needs to respond to it... and they showed there were at least three clear cases of Roosters double markers not penalised.
Ricky needs to take the footage to the NRL and ask them to respond, not just mention it in the press conference. Hopefully they have.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by greeneyed » May 30, 2017, 11:11 am

edwahu wrote:
greeneyed wrote:The whole panel agreed, Ricky was right. One of them even said, the NRL needs to respond to it... and they showed there were at least three clear cases of Roosters double markers not penalised.
Ricky needs to take the footage to the NRL and ask them to respond, not just mention it in the press conference. Hopefully they have.
They haven't and won't. I think Stuart's worked out that this simply makes the referees more intransigent and difficult. They've never, ever responded positively to critical comment, even if constructive. They're only interested in proving themselves right and pretending they make the right call in 99.357 percent of 50/50 calls. Or something like that. Ideally he shouldn't say anything at all, and rely on media pressure with some well placed briefing of sympathetic journalists.


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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gergreg » May 30, 2017, 11:24 am

greeneyed wrote:
edwahu wrote:
greeneyed wrote:The whole panel agreed, Ricky was right. One of them even said, the NRL needs to respond to it... and they showed there were at least three clear cases of Roosters double markers not penalised.
Ricky needs to take the footage to the NRL and ask them to respond, not just mention it in the press conference. Hopefully they have.
They haven't and won't. I think Stuart's worked out that this simply makes the referees more intransigent and difficult. They've never, ever responded positively to critical comment, even if constructive. They're only interested in proving themselves right and pretending they make the right call in 99.357 percent of 50/50 calls. Or something like that. Ideally he shouldn't say anything at all, and rely on media pressure with some well placed briefing of sympathetic journalists.


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It doesn't hurt to make these comments occasionally. Mid season and then just prior to a big finals match isn't uncommon. Ricky does have some contacts in the media, as you say, to fight these battles for him and I agree it probably would have been better to get Kent onto it.
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by CJR » May 30, 2017, 11:28 am

I think what Ricky did has worked to some extent. His comments weren't too OTT and he ended up with an entire NRL360 panel agreeing with him on live TV plus whatever articles have been written. It's out there now and we will see this weekend if anything suddenly changes as a result. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a lot more penalties this weekend.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by edwahu » May 30, 2017, 11:43 am

I get a bit tired of us having to try and manipulate the refs in the media to actually stop cheating. It's a losing game for a club like us. If we provide the NRL with enough proof of it happening and they ignore it for months and months than surely it would be more effective when we actually do push it via the media.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gangrenous » May 30, 2017, 12:38 pm

After months and months your season is dead.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by raiderskater » May 30, 2017, 12:44 pm

Cronulla was round 2. This weekend is round 13. And ever since Cronulla figured out they could do it, teams have been deliberately standing offside against us. It's not like it hasn't been long enough to figure out that cheating is going on.

Where we probably missed a beat was after the Cronulla game. We had a very sympathetic media after the Cowboys game, when even Andrew Johns and Brad Fittler raged on Channel 9 that Thurston committed a professional foul and should have been in the sin bin. If we had gone quietly to a couple of journos after the Sharks game and showed them footage of the Sharks standing offside and not getting called, something bigger might have happened. Even the Sydney media might have started questioning what was going on about the refereeing and the Raiders. But we didn't, and now when Ricky makes his good points, the reaction is to roll eyes at us and claim it's just because we've played badly.
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by edwahu » May 30, 2017, 12:59 pm

gangrenous wrote:After months and months your season is dead.
It's already months and months though.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gangrenous » May 30, 2017, 1:10 pm

You might have noticed our season on some serious life support recently

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by pickles » May 30, 2017, 1:19 pm

The only media coverage this has got is on NRL 360 which would have a reasonably small viewing audience. The only thing covered in major media was the press conference.

It isn't that surprising that no one is interested in the raiders complaining about the referees and I seriously doubt that anything will change in a hurry. Things might actually get worse.

We need to be looking for strategies that combat what teams are doing and this might include being a bit adventurous and looking to grubber through the line to one of our backs not just when we are attacking the opposition line but midfield as well.

Even if it doesn't work perfectly any strategies that keep the defence guessing are worth a shot.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Poida_Raider » May 30, 2017, 1:32 pm

Hey I thought I read at the start of the season that Fox Sports was going to have a ten meter line on their coverage this year? Part of the promotion of the Fox League channel.
Were they asked not to by the NRL?
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Raidersfan » May 30, 2017, 1:40 pm

Poida_Raider wrote:Hey I thought I read at the start of the season that Fox Sports was going to have a ten meter line on their coverage this year? Part of the promotion of the Fox League channel.
Were they asked not to by the NRL?
Correct.
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by greeneyed » May 30, 2017, 2:26 pm

Poida_Raider wrote:Hey I thought I read at the start of the season that Fox Sports was going to have a ten meter line on their coverage this year? Part of the promotion of the Fox League channel.
Were they asked not to by the NRL?
I suspect so. But there's been no announcement to that effect from anyone.
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by -TW- » May 30, 2017, 5:30 pm

I'm pretty sure Archer asked them not to as it would place too much scrutiny on them

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by edwahu » May 30, 2017, 6:42 pm

-TW- wrote:I'm pretty sure Archer asked them not to as it would place too much scrutiny on them

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So basically admitting they can't police the offside properly.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by CJR » May 30, 2017, 6:46 pm

I feel like the argument of they don't want to just give out too many penalties in a game is dumb. If the refs called it every single time it happened, even if that's 20 times and you'd have at least one binning in that time, teams would be very paranoid about trying to break that rule and would fall into line eventually.

A tough stance needs to be made

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gangrenous » May 30, 2017, 8:49 pm

Everything goes in cycles and on this front the refs can't win. If they police everything to the letter of the law then people crack the **** that they're whistle happy and don't let the game flow. If they don't police to the letter of the law then teams push the envelope further and further until in certain areas they have to issue a notice to teams and crack down.

I think you can make the argument that the 10m might have got to the point of needing a crackdown. But I don't think you can blame the refs too much for that. They're responding to the whims of fans and commentators really...

Personally I'd prefer they blew everything to the letter of the law and had heavily lopsided counts against teams pushing the envelope. Eventually that should lead to teams falling into line, but they'd get crucified before they got to that point.

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Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Botman » May 30, 2017, 8:57 pm

Isn't this part of coaching though? To react to how the rules of the game are being interpreted/officiated and making adjustments to suit?

You have to keep evolving. I mean you can keep complaining about what is and wait for it to change to suit you, or you can deal with the circumstances you've been given and adjust

The best teams and coaches across all sports do the latter. If the officials are going to allow teams to use tactics to mitigate our style of play then perhaps its time we adjusted to take advantage. Sport is a zero sum game, when you sell out to close one door, it leaves the next door unguarded
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Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gangrenous » May 30, 2017, 9:11 pm

Absolutely pigman. That's part of why my emphasis (in other posts) has been on focussing on counter-strategies.

I do think the Raiders are afforded less pushing of the envelope than other teams too which makes it tricky (see recent sin-binning of Raiders for common envelope pushing endeavours in recent years)

Edit- I think you could also make the argument that this is part of Ricky's counter strategy. If you believe your team's strengths are blunted by a cheating strategy, and an alternate strategy against that cheating is not as effective or suited to your team, then it makes perfect sense to pressure the officials into enforcing the rules and returning your strengths. As long as you don't rely on that it's still a valid approach.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by greeneyed » May 30, 2017, 9:17 pm

This is why I liked the Croker try. It came about BECAUSE the cheating Aubusson was standing two metres off side every ruck.


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Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Botman » May 30, 2017, 9:20 pm

Yeah I don't mind Stuart reminding the officials of the rules and applying some subtle pressure to try and restore the status quo but you need to have a plan B. I've not seen a lot of plan B out of our squad thus far

Which btw is a pet peeve of mine in the RL world right now. There is very few coaches and teams who can win in different ways. They all just play their style and the chips fall where they may. The lack of a variety in how teams play week to week is perplexing to me. The storm are an obvious example of how you can have success by changing your game plan week to week based on opponents

They attack teams based on match ups. They attack advantages. And their set moves have different wrinkles each week, designed to exploit weaknesses

Too many teams just roll out the same old every week and hope it works. We have a very versatile and skilful team. We can be more multiple than we are
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by edwahu » May 30, 2017, 9:43 pm

Pigman wrote:Yeah I don't mind Stuart reminding the officials of the rules and applying some subtle pressure to try and restore the status quo but you need to have a plan B. I've not seen a lot of plan B out of our squad thus far

Which btw is a pet peeve of mine in the RL world right now. There is very few coaches and teams who can win in different ways. They all just play their style and the chips fall where they may. The lack of a variety in how teams play week to week is perplexing to me. The storm are an obvious example of how you can have success by changing your game plan week to week based on opponents

They attack teams based on match ups. They attack advantages. And their set moves have different wrinkles each week, designed to exploit weaknesses

Too many teams just roll out the same old every week and hope it works. We have a very versatile and skilful team. We can be more multiple than we are
The problem is the rules and their interpretation support boring percentage play and have for 10 years. They need a shake up so that creative football can come back into the game, otherwise there is no incentive to risk trying anything else. I mean we have tried it for 3 years now but even at our best against the top teams we have struggled because they just go into spoiling mode.

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Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Botman » May 30, 2017, 9:49 pm

Yeah that's a wonderful and very idealistic thought. And in the world of rainbows and butterflies I can fully endorse that

Now back in the real world, if we are being bullied at the business end against top sides because our style is not given the freedom to have success when it matters
Perhaps that's a problem with our style and adjustments need to be made, or we need to learn to win in other ways

I know that probably came across as being terribly condescending, so apologies in advanced but if teams are spoiling us and the officials won't change, we can either adapt or fail.

Personally, I vote for adapt
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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by edwahu » May 30, 2017, 9:55 pm

Pigman wrote:Yeah that's a wonderful and very idealistic thought. And in the world of rainbows and butterflies I can fully endorse that

Now back in the real world, if we are being bullied at the business end against top sides because our style is not given the freedom to have success when it matters
Perhaps that's a problem with our style and adjustments need to be made, or we need to learn to win in other ways

I know that probably came across as being terribly condescending, so apologies in advanced but if teams are spoiling us and the officials won't change, we can either adapt or fail.

Personally, I vote for adapt
Teams have tried to adapt but basically the same style of play has won since 2006. The NRL cracked down on the tigers ruck diving and Storm ball started not long after. Its still going and rules like the 7 tackle set have made it worse.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gangrenous » May 30, 2017, 10:07 pm

Pigman wrote:Yeah I don't mind Stuart reminding the officials of the rules and applying some subtle pressure to try and restore the status quo but you need to have a plan B. I've not seen a lot of plan B out of our squad thus far
I agree with this. I mentioned in the podcast thread some examples. The one that keeps jumping out at me is Rapana out of dummy half in our end. The guy is a beast. Teams are sometimes putting five guys on him, and at minimum the markers are on him in a flash. I don't understand why we haven't seen more plays where Rapana goes into dummy half and then scoops it straight to Leilua running onto it wide of the ruck instead. It doesn't need to be all the time, or even often. It just needs to happen sometimes to put the defence in two minds about whether they can afford to send al the troops straight at Rapana, which at the moment they can.

The mousetrap was awesome, and words cannot express the joy that brought me, but it doesn't even need to be that fancy I don't think.

Also I don't remember which game it was, actually I'm not even sure it was the Raiders tbh... but there was one game I was watching where one of the teams tactics were failing spectacularly. I expected that at least after half time and speaking to the coach they'd come out different, but it was still the same rubbish in the second half.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 31, 2017, 7:36 am

BadnMean wrote:
Green eyed Mick wrote:I wonder if this kind of technology could ever give us a way to get things like forward passes and offside calls correct?

Would you want this kind of technology? It would make the game less exciting if every thing except the ruck was determined by computer.

http://www.nrl.com/player-trackers-to-r ... fault.aspx
Forward passes will never "look" correct because of the physics involved and the subjectivity of deciding whether a ball "went backward from the hands"- even in cricket, hawkeye requires metres of tracking data and 6 different cameras trained on the (in cricket, quite predictable within a pretty set 22 yard area) exact place a ball might land. And the cost is huge.

Can we cover an entire league ground? No.

Why don't we just "microchip the ball"- people love this one. No-one has ever explained how in actual fact this might work to the minute scale require of rugby league or how it might me implemented or costed. But it's great pub talk. NRL would be the first sport in the world to do so. Considering the NRL are 10 years behind ideas in digital rights and media platforms, I somehow doubt it.

The data provided by tracking at the moment is dubious- useful from a club or media POV but if challenged on the basis of a ruling or premiership etc it's Bull at the RL level for forward passes (offside? Not sure).
That Croker looping pass to Austin in the Parra game was an excellent example of that. Clearly thrown backwards out of the hands but it was 50/50 as to whether Austin caught it in front of where Croker let it go.

If we were going to use a tracking line for forward passes it would need to determine the speed at which a player was travelling when he threw the pass and determine the natural forwards momentum of the pass leaving the hands. This would also probably change based on the way the pass was released out of the hands. Too many variables.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by gangrenous » May 31, 2017, 8:10 am

I disagree. Think it could be done.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Green eyed Mick » May 31, 2017, 8:17 am

The first and easiest thing we can do is stop trying to milk penalties. We have a few players who are serial offenders. The refs aren't idiots and most of the time all we end up doing is wasting the opportunity for a quick play.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 31, 2017, 11:25 am

gangrenous wrote:I disagree. Think it could be done.
Care to share any details about how you could see it working with forward passes?

I'm all for a CGI line when it comes to ruling on off side play.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by BadnMean » May 31, 2017, 11:47 am

edwahu wrote:
-TW- wrote:I'm pretty sure Archer asked them not to as it would place too much scrutiny on them

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So basically admitting they can't police the offside properly.
And the kind of "leadership" who would rather take the easy route and avoid scrutiny instead of raising standards and actually improving outcomes for all concerned.

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Re: Are other teams back the ten?

Post by Conor » May 31, 2017, 11:49 am

Green eyed Mick wrote:The first and easiest thing we can do is stop trying to milk penalties. We have a few players who are serial offenders. The refs aren't idiots and most of the time all we end up doing is wasting the opportunity for a quick play.
The refs actually are idiots, but otherwise you're spot on.

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