Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by The Nickman » May 23, 2019, 1:40 pm

PigRickman wrote:There is a clear fundamental difference between taking plot holes in the show and explaining them with things that never happened and were never suggested, vs offering up alternate options of that ending which would avoided the plot holes that are creating issues.

If you cant understand that, there is nothing more to be said here
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Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by The Nickman » May 23, 2019, 1:52 pm

I think this picture sums our debate up perfectly

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by The Nickman » May 23, 2019, 2:22 pm

Hahahahaha this is amazing

What the people at the Dragonpit were REALLY thinking

https://edofthefu.com/posts/what-the-pe ... =control_2


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Sid » May 23, 2019, 2:48 pm

hahaha Yeah idk what’s up with this Wheelchair Wikipedia but I’m good.

Also I would've thought that if anyone would've tried to find out what's west of Westeros, it would've been the Greyjoys given those guys are on the Island to the West and are all about ships

I finally found out the rest of Tyrion's joke on Reddit that he starts several times! Maybe not appropriate for GH
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 23, 2019, 2:51 pm

That's the **** PURELY **** ive read in a long time... you can just hook it to my veins

GREY WORM: I will tolerate only one more impassioned speech setting the course of the future of this land and deciding your own fate. Two, at most.

**** LOL
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 23, 2019, 2:52 pm

Sid wrote:
May 23, 2019, 2:48 pm
I finally found out the rest of Tyrion's joke on Reddit that he starts several times! Maybe not appropriate for GH
I googled it just now... not a bad pay off
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Northern Raider » May 23, 2019, 4:06 pm

The Rickman wrote:
May 23, 2019, 2:22 pm
Hahahahaha this is amazing

What the people at the Dragonpit were REALLY thinking

https://edofthefu.com/posts/what-the-pe ... =control_2


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:roflmao

As if that scene required any more undermining, that nailed it.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » May 23, 2019, 4:46 pm

PigRickman wrote:The story tellers gave him humanity, they developed him as someone that had grown beyond the Unsullied mentality, he had real human feelings and emotions, just in the last episode he sees Dany start seeking revenge and he makes his own decision, independent of hers (she never instructed him to do what he did in KL, in fact her orders were expressly made clear that he was to stop when the Bells rung) to seek his own revenge.
Does she? I don’t remember her committing to Tyrion that she would stop when the bells rang. So when I saw that, I thought it was pre-meditated that she wasn’t going to stop, and that Greyworm would instruct to commence the slaughter.

I do sit on the side of the fence that dude is so trained and... what’s the word... straighty one eighty, that he wouldn’t have thought to step out of his lane and make a choice on his own.

That’s never been his responsibility, and he’s too disciplined to go otherwise
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » May 23, 2019, 4:47 pm

The Rickman wrote:
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
The Rickman wrote:In reality, you could’ve done ten seasons, with 8 being the fight vs the white walkers (and we find out all about them), 9 being the rebuilding from the battle with the dead leading up to the fight for King’s Landing (ending with the Mad Queen), and 10 being the final series that wraps it all up. We have Mad Queen Dany, she starts to try and branch out, finally gets taken down and then the unsullied and Dothraki are dealt with, and we get a reasonable conclusion to the story and every storyline
I said this to Mrs Fui last night. 10 seasons would have been good
S08: Taking care of the NK
S09: Rebuild, and prepping to take care of Cersei. Final ep would be ep5 from this season
S10: Westeros realising what happened, regrouping and working to take out Dany in the 2nd last ep. Last ep basically being what happened in that time jump (Including Dothraki and Unsullied) the council etc.

It would have been the right amount of time to get the story right.

As for the compromise with 8 seasons, it wasn’t even. It was 7 seasons, with the 7th being split into two. Remember the 7th season was shortened as well
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Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by gangrenous » May 23, 2019, 6:09 pm

Just to throw another plot hole out there for you, in case you needed another one.

Dany has no idea Cersei is dead. She never seeks proof. She razes most of Kings Landing and leaves the main keep in tact where her ultimate enemy is presumably still alive.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 23, 2019, 6:40 pm

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
May 23, 2019, 4:46 pm
PigRickman wrote:The story tellers gave him humanity, they developed him as someone that had grown beyond the Unsullied mentality, he had real human feelings and emotions, just in the last episode he sees Dany start seeking revenge and he makes his own decision, independent of hers (she never instructed him to do what he did in KL, in fact her orders were expressly made clear that he was to stop when the Bells rung) to seek his own revenge.
Does she? I don’t remember her committing to Tyrion that she would stop when the bells rang. So when I saw that, I thought it was pre-meditated that she wasn’t going to stop, and that Greyworm would instruct to commence the slaughter.
There is the scene where Tyrion is begging her to call off the attack if the bells are ringing, and Grey Worm is staring at her looking for direction and she nods at him which i dont think could be read as any other way but a clear edict to Grey Worm that she agreed to call off the troops once the bells rang... which fits in with that part of the story because the bells ring and the unsullied cease, they stand wait, the Lannisters lay down their swords... if the orders were to commence the slaughter, they'd just charge in... but they wait, obeying the order, and then Grey Worm sees Dany go on a rampage of revenge and he independently makes a decision for himself that "**** yeah, i'd like some revenge too!" and away we go.

So he does act independently there, how independently is up for debate. You could argue that by Dany continuing to attack, that was her making a call to vanquish all, and the Unsullied interpreted that correctly and acted accordingly, but then that sort of feeds into the idea that there is no chance they wouldnt just gut Jon on the spot and prepare for war against the northern forces.

The show runners in post ep break down clearly state that Dany snapped and the attack on KL once the bells rung was not premeditated.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 23, 2019, 6:42 pm

another simple thing that was kind of annoying... Dany is getting the third reich speech, dressing black (boy that was as subtle as a sledgehammer!) and she's banging on to the Dothraki and Unsullied, in a language that Jon and Arya absolutely wouldnt understand but they seemed to get it word for word based on their dialogue haha.

Like Gendry telling Dany he's Gendry Rivers (Riverlands bastard) when actually he is from the Crownlands and thus his name would be Gendry Waters..

It's little and stupid and doesnt matter but it's the kind of oversight the show just didnt make 3 seasons ago
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Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Sid » May 23, 2019, 7:12 pm

She can now add Führer to her many titles

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Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Sid » May 23, 2019, 7:56 pm

PigRickman wrote:
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
May 23, 2019, 4:46 pm
PigRickman wrote:The story tellers gave him humanity, they developed him as someone that had grown beyond the Unsullied mentality, he had real human feelings and emotions, just in the last episode he sees Dany start seeking revenge and he makes his own decision, independent of hers (she never instructed him to do what he did in KL, in fact her orders were expressly made clear that he was to stop when the Bells rung) to seek his own revenge.
Does she? I don’t remember her committing to Tyrion that she would stop when the bells rang. So when I saw that, I thought it was pre-meditated that she wasn’t going to stop, and that Greyworm would instruct to commence the slaughter.
Grey Worm sees Dany go on a rampage of revenge and he independently makes a decision for himself that "**** yeah, i'd like some revenge too!" and away we go.

.
Dany going on the rampage IS the order to continue sacking the city.. the Golden Army aren’t going to stand there kicking stones while Führer Daenerys burns the town down. Grey Worm isn’t an independent thinker who strays from leaders orders or military protocol IMO.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 23, 2019, 8:40 pm

Except, the Lannisters do exactly that. They dont move an inch, not a single one of them goes for their discarded swords until Grey Worm and the Unsullied/Northernmen charge at now unarmed and surrendering solders.
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Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Sid » May 23, 2019, 9:47 pm

I still think Daenary’s continuing the charge is signalling “go for it boys”
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 23, 2019, 10:00 pm

But we're arguing that Grey Worm cant act without expressed direction. There was no expressed direction, he took her actions and interpreted them as a sign and acted accordingly. At this stage of his character development, that's what he's capable of... the idea that he cant kill Jon because his murdered queen hasnt given a direct order doesnt jibe with me, or it seems the wider GoT audience. They progressed Grey Worm beyond this, they went to great lengths to show he's developed beyond that.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Sid » May 23, 2019, 10:13 pm

I don’t think there was any instruction to him to stop slicing as first directed.

I do think things generally turned too peaceful amongst all parties involved too quickly and conveniently after the big climax though
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » May 23, 2019, 10:40 pm

PigRickman wrote:another simple thing that was kind of annoying... Dany is getting the third reich speech, dressing black (boy that was as subtle as a sledgehammer!) and she's banging on to the Dothraki and Unsullied, in a language that Jon and Arya absolutely wouldnt understand but they seemed to get it word for word based on their dialogue haha.
See again, I didn’t take it as that. I didn’t think of it as Jon being able to understand what she’s saying, but he understood she was talking in a foreign language with such an aggressive tone. In that speech, there was one word he understood, Winterfell. So he could make a conclusion that she was saying something bad, and whipping the troops into a frenzy.

Plus Tyrion can speak it a little
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by The Nickman » May 23, 2019, 11:25 pm

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
PigRickman wrote:another simple thing that was kind of annoying... Dany is getting the third reich speech, dressing black (boy that was as subtle as a sledgehammer!) and she's banging on to the Dothraki and Unsullied, in a language that Jon and Arya absolutely wouldnt understand but they seemed to get it word for word based on their dialogue haha.
See again, I didn’t take it as that. I didn’t think of it as Jon being able to understand what she’s saying, but he understood she was talking in a foreign language with such an aggressive tone. In that speech, there was one word he understood, Winterfell. So he could make a conclusion that she was saying something bad, and whipping the troops into a frenzy.

Plus Tyrion can speak it a little
And once again, people are explaining away poor writing because of what they ”think” happened.

Nock raises a very valid point.. Jon can’t understand what Dany is saying here, you explain it away by saying “yeah, nah, I just feel like her tone was bad and she said Winterfell”

That 100% wasn’t the scene. She gave a final solution speech and Jon understood every word of it. Any other opinion is just a rewriting of history to cover up for bad writing.


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by greeneyed » May 23, 2019, 11:35 pm

Who says Jon didn't learn enough of the language to work it out? I've learned enough of a lot of languages to work out what is being said, but it is much more difficult to speak it.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by PrimetimeRaider » May 24, 2019, 5:28 am

Grey Worm was certainly acting on his own accord when he went down on Missandei. Or did Dany tell him to do that too?

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 24, 2019, 8:01 am

greeneyed wrote:
May 23, 2019, 11:35 pm
Who says Jon didn't learn enough of the language to work it out? I've learned enough of a lot of languages to work out what is being said, but it is much more difficult to speak it.
What evidence did the show give the idea that Jon AND Arya had sound understanding of the language?

That’s the point, if you want to make that scene work, put some dialogue somewhere in the lead up eps to show he’s picked up some Dothraki.

That’s what the show did so incredibly well for 6 seasons and the type of super bad short cuts they’ve made since losing the source material
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Sid » May 24, 2019, 8:40 am

I know this is incredibly minor, but there was also the part where Jon tells Grey Worm he is going to see the Queen or something to that effect and Grey Worm stays behind slitting throats. Next time we see Jon meet the Queen Grey Worm is at the top of the steps all like "What took You so long??"
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » May 24, 2019, 10:01 am

The Rickman wrote:And once again, people are explaining away poor writing because of what they ”think” happened.

Nock raises a very valid point.. Jon can’t understand what Dany is saying here, you explain it away by saying “yeah, nah, I just feel like her tone was bad and she said Winterfell”

That 100% wasn’t the scene. She gave a final solution speech and Jon understood every word of it. Any other opinion is just a rewriting of history to cover up for bad writing.
Agree to disagree. I didn’t get that he was understanding her word for word. I don’t think you need to be able to speak Dothraki to be able to understand she wasn’t planning anything good.

If I heard someone giving an final solution speech like that, and the only word I could understand was “Sydney”, I would be asking who **** in my pants.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by BadnMean » May 24, 2019, 10:11 am

PigRickman wrote:
May 24, 2019, 8:01 am
greeneyed wrote:
May 23, 2019, 11:35 pm
Who says Jon didn't learn enough of the language to work it out? I've learned enough of a lot of languages to work out what is being said, but it is much more difficult to speak it.
What evidence did the show give the idea that Jon AND Arya had sound understanding of the language?

That’s the point, if you want to make that scene work, put some dialogue somewhere in the lead up eps to show he’s picked up some Dothraki.

That’s what the show did so incredibly well for 6 seasons and the type of super bad short cuts they’ve made since losing the source material
In general- yes. The short cuts in conveniently shrinking Westeros down to Britain size, when the early plot and maps have it at at least 50 times the size of Britain- not a place you can lark up and down in a week/day and suddenly picking up a language and all the rest. Basically the kind of convenient plot short cuts they didn't have in early series as Martin so studiously and meticulously avoided them.

That's why I'm not fussed how long he takes to write the books. They are good because they are so rich and stand up to scrutiny as well as a peice of world building fiction can and further reads often reveal little elements and clues which add up later.

The screenwriters have to crank out scripts without his talent or depth of understanding and they made some dramatic TV but they are not in the same league as writers and working under such different constraints as a guy who had a literal lifetime to write his magnum opus.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 24, 2019, 10:25 am

BadnMean wrote:
May 24, 2019, 10:11 am
PigRickman wrote:
May 24, 2019, 8:01 am
greeneyed wrote:
May 23, 2019, 11:35 pm
Who says Jon didn't learn enough of the language to work it out? I've learned enough of a lot of languages to work out what is being said, but it is much more difficult to speak it.
What evidence did the show give the idea that Jon AND Arya had sound understanding of the language?

That’s the point, if you want to make that scene work, put some dialogue somewhere in the lead up eps to show he’s picked up some Dothraki.

That’s what the show did so incredibly well for 6 seasons and the type of super bad short cuts they’ve made since losing the source material
In general- yes. The short cuts in conveniently shrinking Westeros down to Britain size, when the early plot and maps have it at at least 50 times the size of Britain- not a place you can lark up and down in a week/day and suddenly picking up a language and all the rest. Basically the kind of convenient plot short cuts they didn't have in early series as Martin so studiously and meticulously avoided them.

That's why I'm not fussed how long he takes to write the books. They are good because they are so rich and stand up to scrutiny as well as a peice of world building fiction can and further reads often reveal little elements and clues which add up later.

The screenwriters have to crank out scripts without his talent or depth of understanding and they made some dramatic TV but they are not in the same league as writers and working under such different constraints as a guy who had a literal lifetime to write his magnum opus.
Yeah look, im probably being harsh on the show runners and writers. Their task was not enviable. And frankly, they signed up to adapt the books to the screen, expecting to have the final books to guide them in the ending. Not to finish it for GRRM.
They didnt get it, so in that respect they got as **** as anyone on this.
And the reason the books havent been released is precisely these issues, trying to tie off all the loose ends of such an expansive, wide ranging, intertwining story must be an utter nightmare.

So point well made... i guess all i'd say is it feels like the DD's really just wanted to get on to the next project, HBO were willing to let this story run as long as it needs to (because why not, it's money printing machine for them) but the DD's refused, said they didnt need more time, the story didnt need more time and they could give finish it in 13 eps... that decision proved to be incorrect and kind of selfish... i get that all involved including the actors probably wanted to move on to other projects and the DD's certain did, but i feel at the very least these last two seasons should have been full 10 episode runs. That's another 7 eps to help flesh out some of this stuff that has felt rushed and lazy.

Would it have made the conclusion more satisfying? I think so. I think you can get to this same story, with the Mad Queen and Bran the Broken, which i think most, including the Rickheads here actually think it is a fine ending, but just the path to get there needed more screen time to stick that landing... 7 more eps could have really helped tremendously there (and yeah as others have said, ideally this felt like a nice 9-10 season runs)
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Northern Raider » May 24, 2019, 10:27 am

So much mental duct tape being used to try and piece things together and create a plausible explanation for what took place demonstrates that they completely **** up the script.

What gets me most is one of the most impactful plot arc completely vanished after Dany's murder. That being Jon Snow is really Aegon Targaryen and rightful heir to the throne. How did that not get mentioned?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 24, 2019, 10:44 am

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
May 24, 2019, 10:01 am
and the only word I could understand was “Sydney”, I would be asking who **** in my pants
I believe correct terminology would be “which one of you cowards **** in my pants?”
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Botman » May 24, 2019, 10:48 am

Northern Raider wrote:
May 24, 2019, 10:27 am
What gets me most is one of the most impactful plot arc completely vanished after Dany's murder. That being Jon Snow is really Aegon Targaryen and rightful heir to the throne. How did that not get mentioned?
Feels like Tyrion might have made mention of the fact that Jon was the rightful heir, and just as Dany killed a tyrant usurper to claim the throne, she herself was a tyrant usurper... but that's all just ignored :lol:
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
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GO;

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by The Nickman » May 24, 2019, 11:02 am

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
May 24, 2019, 10:01 am
The Rickman wrote:And once again, people are explaining away poor writing because of what they ”think” happened.

Nock raises a very valid point.. Jon can’t understand what Dany is saying here, you explain it away by saying “yeah, nah, I just feel like her tone was bad and she said Winterfell”

That 100% wasn’t the scene. She gave a final solution speech and Jon understood every word of it. Any other opinion is just a rewriting of history to cover up for bad writing.
Agree to disagree. I didn’t get that he was understanding her word for word. I don’t think you need to be able to speak Dothraki to be able to understand she wasn’t planning anything good.

If I heard someone giving an final solution speech like that, and the only word I could understand was “Sydney”, I would be asking who **** in my pants.
I don't agree to that.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Sid » May 24, 2019, 11:09 am

PigRickman wrote:
May 24, 2019, 10:25 am
BadnMean wrote:
May 24, 2019, 10:11 am
PigRickman wrote:
May 24, 2019, 8:01 am
greeneyed wrote:
May 23, 2019, 11:35 pm
Who says Jon didn't learn enough of the language to work it out? I've learned enough of a lot of languages to work out what is being said, but it is much more difficult to speak it.
What evidence did the show give the idea that Jon AND Arya had sound understanding of the language?

That’s the point, if you want to make that scene work, put some dialogue somewhere in the lead up eps to show he’s picked up some Dothraki.

That’s what the show did so incredibly well for 6 seasons and the type of super bad short cuts they’ve made since losing the source material
In general- yes. The short cuts in conveniently shrinking Westeros down to Britain size, when the early plot and maps have it at at least 50 times the size of Britain- not a place you can lark up and down in a week/day and suddenly picking up a language and all the rest. Basically the kind of convenient plot short cuts they didn't have in early series as Martin so studiously and meticulously avoided them.

That's why I'm not fussed how long he takes to write the books. They are good because they are so rich and stand up to scrutiny as well as a peice of world building fiction can and further reads often reveal little elements and clues which add up later.

The screenwriters have to crank out scripts without his talent or depth of understanding and they made some dramatic TV but they are not in the same league as writers and working under such different constraints as a guy who had a literal lifetime to write his magnum opus.
Yeah look, im probably being harsh on the show runners and writers. Their task was not enviable. And frankly, they signed up to adapt the books to the screen, expecting to have the final books to guide them in the ending. Not to finish it for GRRM.
They didnt get it, so in that respect they got as **** as anyone on this.
And the reason the books havent been released is precisely these issues, trying to tie off all the loose ends of such an expansive, wide ranging, intertwining story must be an utter nightmare.

So point well made... i guess all i'd say is it feels like the DD's really just wanted to get on to the next project, HBO were willing to let this story run as long as it needs to (because why not, it's money printing machine for them) but the DD's refused, said they didnt need more time, the story didnt need more time and they could give finish it in 13 eps... that decision proved to be incorrect and kind of selfish... i get that all involved including the actors probably wanted to move on to other projects and the DD's certain did, but i feel at the very least these last two seasons should have been full 10 episode runs. That's another 7 eps to help flesh out some of this stuff that has felt rushed and lazy.

Would it have made the conclusion more satisfying? I think so. I think you can get to this same story, with the Mad Queen and Bran the Broken, which i think most, including the Rickheads here actually think it is a fine ending, but just the path to get there needed more screen time to stick that landing... 7 more eps could have really helped tremendously there (and yeah as others have said, ideally this felt like a nice 9-10 season runs)
A lot of directors draw their series across several seasons too long and milk it for what it's worth, so it is weird how they would cut this one much too short. Even though it would've been very expensive to make, you'd think that the most popular television series of all time would be printing money.
Whatever projects they were rushing to get to won't come close to being as successful as the GoT storyline.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by The Nickman » May 24, 2019, 11:20 am

Yeah, this whole "too expensive to make" argument (like how they cut Ghost) just doesn't gel with me. They're making money hand over fist on the series, how is ANYTHING "too expensive"??
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by The Nickman » May 24, 2019, 11:21 am

Also, there's strong anecdotal evidence out there that Jon Snow's pat with Ghost at the end of the final episode was a scene in Season 4 and they just shoehorned it in there after copping massive criticism in Episode 4 about it.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 *Spoilers*

Post by Northern Raider » May 24, 2019, 11:47 am

Have to admit this an awesome internet nerd fight.
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