The Politics Thread 2021

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gergreg
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gergreg »

As if we really needed further evidence that this is a troll account. Not sure how anyone can excuse or defend the actions of the ex police officer.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Dr Zaius »

Everyone dies of cardiopulmonary (or cardiorespiratory in thsee parts of the world) arrest.

When somebody chokes you by putting their knee on your neck you eventually stop breathing. When you've stopped breathing long enough, your heart stops and you die.

People seem to think that only one thing goes on a death certificate. There is room for several things but it always ends in cardiorespiratory arrest.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 21, 2021, 6:51 pm I personally don’t understand how any reasonable person could look at the footage and conclude anything but this was an arrogant man in power who had no regard for the life of the man he was kneeling on.
Modern, civilised justice systems tend to rely on more than grainy mobile footage before condemning people to lengthy prison sentences. Imagine how much time and money that could be saved if they asked a few youtubers what their verdict was? Probably a lot, but many innocent people would go to prison.

If you judged by the video alone, then we would conclude that Floyd suffocated to the death at the hands (or knees) of Chauvin and his colleagues. However we know that Floyd did not suffocate. We also know that he had a criminal history, resisted arrest, that he had 3x the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system and that he had advanced heart disease and hypotension.

A reasonable person wouldn’t conclude anything based on grainy, youtube footage. They would wait to see all of the evidence, and hear arguments from both sides, void of external social and political pressures, before making an educated decision in regards to that person’s guilt or innocence.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by rayden83 »

gangrenous wrote: April 21, 2021, 7:32 pm Not when the suspect has no pulse. My understanding is he remained beyond that point.

Yes he did. He should’ve placed Floyd into the recovery position and began CPR. But he should’ve rendered medical assistance to save his safe. That he did nothing shows complete callousness and disregard for life. I didn’t buy the defences argument that the crowd was a factor in not rendering CPR, they were pleading for his life not threatening violence. But this plays more into the manslaughter charge than murder.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

rayden83 wrote: April 21, 2021, 9:39 pm
Botman wrote: April 21, 2021, 6:51 pm I personally don’t understand how any reasonable person could look at the footage and conclude anything but this was an arrogant man in power who had no regard for the life of the man he was kneeling on.
Modern, civilised justice systems tend to rely on more than grainy mobile footage before condemning people to lengthy prison sentences. Imagine how much time and money that could be saved if they asked a few youtubers what their verdict was? Probably a lot, but many innocent people would go to prison.

If you judged by the video alone, then we would conclude that Floyd suffocated to the death at the hands (or knees) of Chauvin and his colleagues. However we know that Floyd did not suffocate. We also know that he had a criminal history, resisted arrest, that he had 3x the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system and that he had advanced heart disease and hypotension.

A reasonable person wouldn’t conclude anything based on grainy, youtube footage. They would wait to see all of the evidence, and hear arguments from both sides, void of external social and political pressures, before making an educated decision in regards to that person’s guilt or innocence.
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Last edited by Botman on April 21, 2021, 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

Dr Zaius wrote: April 21, 2021, 9:21 pm Everyone dies of cardiopulmonary (or cardiorespiratory in thsee parts of the world) arrest.

When somebody chokes you by putting their knee on your neck you eventually stop breathing. When you've stopped breathing long enough, your heart stops and you die.

People seem to think that only one thing goes on a death certificate. There is room for several things but it always ends in cardiorespiratory arrest.

Correct
admittedly i only know this because my wife is a doctor... but i can walk up, kidnap Rayden, waterboard him and at some point he will die of cardiorespiratory arrest... it does not in any law im aware of, mitigate my culpability. If my unlawful actons put you in such a situation that it causes such stress on the body and respratory system that it results in a fatal heart attack, i am responsible.

In this case, the argument on the official autospy and what has been testified is that the primary cause of death (which may technically be a heart attack) was that the officers actions were the primary reason for death
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

rayden83 wrote: April 21, 2021, 9:46 pm
gangrenous wrote: April 21, 2021, 7:32 pm Not when the suspect has no pulse. My understanding is he remained beyond that point.

Yes he did. He should’ve placed Floyd into the recovery position and began CPR. But he should’ve rendered medical assistance to save his safe. That he did nothing shows complete callousness and disregard for life. I didn’t buy the defences argument that the crowd was a factor in not rendering CPR, they were pleading for his life not threatening violence. But this plays more into the manslaughter charge than murder.
Please read the posts above about what burden and what goes into the second degree murder charge which he was found guilty of.

You yourself in this very post concede he showed a "callousness and disregard for life"
ON that basis, he is guilty of murder in the 2nd degree. Because once you concede there was a callousness and disregard for life, you concede he was acting outside his role as a police officer and was unlawful in his actions, and thus his actions were a crime... and he killed a man whilst committing a crime. Which is the defintion of the charge of murder in the 2nd degree for which, you yourself have unwittingly found him guilty of.

Maybe hang off on applying as his lawyer on appeal.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 21, 2021, 10:09 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 21, 2021, 9:46 pm
gangrenous wrote: April 21, 2021, 7:32 pm Not when the suspect has no pulse. My understanding is he remained beyond that point.

Yes he did. He should’ve placed Floyd into the recovery position and began CPR. But he should’ve rendered medical assistance to save his safe. That he did nothing shows complete callousness and disregard for life. I didn’t buy the defences argument that the crowd was a factor in not rendering CPR, they were pleading for his life not threatening violence. But this plays more into the manslaughter charge than murder.
Please read the posts above about what burden and what goes into the second degree murder charge which he was found guilty of.

You yourself in this very post concede he showed a "callousness and disregard for life"
ON that basis, he is guilty of murder in the 2nd degree. Because once you concede there was a callousness and disregard for life, you concede he was acting outside his role as a police officer and was unlawful in his actions, and thus his actions were a crime... and he killed a man whilst committing a crime. Which is the defintion of the charge of murder in the 2nd degree for which, you yourself have unwittingly found him guilty of.

Maybe hang off on applying as his lawyer on appeal.
Hahahaa, "unwittingly". :lol:

Those are not the conditions for murder in the 2nd degree. The conditions are unintentionally killing someone in the act of committing a crime. In this case the alleged crime was felony assault, the act of unlawfully handcuffing and restraining Floyd in the prone position, ​not failing to render assistance to a dying man which falls under manslaughter (for which he was also convicted).
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The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

I’m interested in what could possibly be the motivation for rayden to set himself up as the antagonist in this discussion.

Strikes me as a real “All Lives Matter” kindof guy.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Dr Zaius »

A "heart attack" is a non medical term for acute myocardial infarction. Going solely off posts in this thread, there is no mention of acute myocardial infarction. He didn't have a heart attack. He arrested because he was asphyxiated.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

The Nickman wrote: April 22, 2021, 5:31 am I’m interested in what could possibly be the motivation for rayden to set himself up as the antagonist in this discussion.

Strikes me as a real “All Lives Matter” kindof guy.
Oh very much so. You know the deal here
The guy basically just made the prosecutions case for them and still wants to argue the toss about reasonable doubt, even though he has no idea about the full scope of the case presented to the jury

This guy would have been weeded out very quickly on jury selection 😂
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

Botman wrote: April 22, 2021, 8:04 am
The Nickman wrote: April 22, 2021, 5:31 am I’m interested in what could possibly be the motivation for rayden to set himself up as the antagonist in this discussion.

Strikes me as a real “All Lives Matter” kindof guy.
Oh very much so. You know the deal here
The guy basically just made the prosecutions case for them and still wants to argue the toss about reasonable doubt, even though he has no idea about the full scope of the case presented to the jury

This guy would have been weeded out very quickly on jury selection 😂
Yeah, I know the type... probably a real #NotAllMen sort of bloke too.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by zim »

I KNEW after seeing the verdict this was going to end up here. Anytime I think no one's going to make their dissenting opinion known because it's just so bizarre you can find it on theGH :lol:
At least it keeps things interesting.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

zim wrote: April 22, 2021, 12:15 pm I KNEW after seeing the verdict this was going to end up here. Anytime I think no one's going to make their dissenting opinion known because it's just so bizarre you can find it on theGH :lol:
At least it keeps things interesting.
Yeah, agreed... I had money on it being dubby though at $1.05, so I've lost quite a bit.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Sterlk »

Within the month, Biden will be thrown out of office and Trump will be rightfully reinstated. You'll see. YOU'LL ALL SEE! :lol:

Wonder how Qanon is going these days...
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

Sterlk wrote: April 22, 2021, 8:42 pm Within the month, Biden will be thrown out of office and Trump will be rightfully reinstated. You'll see. YOU'LL ALL SEE! :lol:

Wonder how Qanon is going these days...
It's NEXT month, m8
try and keep up


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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Mickey_Raider »

****. Derek Chauvin apologists are 100% the same kinds of people who claim that all Covid deaths aren’t really Covid deaths because of the existence co morbitities.

It may be reductionist and it isn’t a universally applied principle, but the “but for” principle is often very useful in determining liability.

Would Floyd have spontaneously died from all the issues plaguing him which apparently caused his death independently of the 100kg cop crushing his neck for 10 minutes?

Of **** course not.

Similarly if I got Covid and died tomorrow, Covid deniers would argue that my extremely mild ocasional exercise induced asthma was the cause of my death, not Covid; and imply that I was destined to kick the bucket tomorrow in any case.

Absolute bunkum, contrarian nonsense.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by T_R »

rayden83 wrote: April 21, 2021, 9:39 pm
If you judged by the video alone, then we would conclude that Floyd suffocated to the death at the hands (or knees) of Chauvin and his colleagues. However we know that Floyd did not suffocate. We also know that he had a criminal history, resisted arrest, that he had 3x the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his system and that he had advanced heart disease and hypotension.
But he didn't. It's just not true.

He was measured as having sufficient Fentanyl in his system to have a mildly anesthetic effect. The trial transcript cannot be clearer - all the medical experts agreed that his drug use did not cause his death, and that it was at most a mildly contributive factor.

To use their exact words "There was no medical reason that George Floyd died that day"
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You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gangrenous »

From the reporting the defence tried arguing he might have died due to the carbon monoxide from the tailpipe?

Ummm... what kind of argument is that? His head is still pinned near the tailpipe because he’s being knelt on. Even if it were right - he’s still guilty. That’s the stupidest **** excuse I ever heard.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by -TW- »

gangrenous wrote:From the reporting the defence tried arguing he might have died due to the carbon monoxide from the tailpipe?

Ummm... what kind of argument is that? His head is still pinned near the tailpipe because he’s being knelt on. Even if it were right - he’s still guilty. That’s the stupidest **** excuse I ever heard.
Rayden probably came up with it

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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

gangrenous wrote: April 24, 2021, 11:34 am From the reporting the defence tried arguing he might have died due to the carbon monoxide from the tailpipe?

Ummm... what kind of argument is that? His head is still pinned near the tailpipe because he’s being knelt on. Even if it were right - he’s still guilty. That’s the stupidest **** excuse I ever heard.
Yeah I heard that also. So the guy can hardly breathe because he has a knee to neck, and what limited breathing capacity he does have, is being used breathing in Carbon Monoxide.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Seiffert82 »

This rayden83 bloke is a real character. I never have a real idea what his argument actually is, but he is passionate about it nonetheless. I respect that.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Sterlk »

Oh, China, China, China...
China loves peace and will not take the initiative to pick a fight with faraway Australia, but Australian hawks must be clear-minded.

“If they are bold enough to co-ordinate with the US to militarily interfere in the Taiwan question and send troops to the Taiwan Straits to wage war with the PLA, they must know what disasters they would cause to their country.”

[in reference to China bombing Australia]
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

So what is everyone’s thoughts on this China sitch? Going to blow over, or should I be moving out of Sydney and back to the farm?
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by T_R »

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:So what is everyone’s thoughts on this China sitch? Going to blow over, or should I be moving out of Sydney and back to the farm?
New cold war. Get used to it.

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You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gergreg »

Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and then almost out of nowhere, a new conflict?
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by T_R »

gergreg wrote: May 9, 2021, 4:53 pm Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and then almost out of nowhere, a new conflict?
You know, I'm not a huge fan of long haired unwashed nutcases ranting on about the military industrial complex, and I feel that 1984 while a good read has somewhat aged....but sometimes, you have to wonder if they didn't both have it 100% right.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:So what is everyone’s thoughts on this China sitch? Going to blow over, or should I be moving out of Sydney and back to the farm?
No way man, the farms will be the first place they bomb!
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

Spicy stuff, my track record on this sort of thing is... sketchy at best... but i have a feeling this will all work out JUST FINE

*smash cut to June 2022. Botman is being marched at gun point to a facility in Civic by Chinese troops... "You know, i really thought we'd be fine!" *
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gergreg »

T_R wrote:
gergreg wrote: May 9, 2021, 4:53 pm Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and then almost out of nowhere, a new conflict?
You know, I'm not a huge fan of long haired unwashed nutcases ranting on about the military industrial complex, and I feel that 1984 while a good read has somewhat aged....but sometimes, you have to wonder if they didn't both have it 100% right.
Hey, I'm bald for the record.

I'm not sure what has triggered this recent escalation? South China Sea, Taiwan tensions? Both have been going on for years now, but all of a sudden things seem to be heating up.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

gergreg wrote:
T_R wrote:
gergreg wrote: May 9, 2021, 4:53 pm Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and then almost out of nowhere, a new conflict?
You know, I'm not a huge fan of long haired unwashed nutcases ranting on about the military industrial complex, and I feel that 1984 while a good read has somewhat aged....but sometimes, you have to wonder if they didn't both have it 100% right.
Hey, I'm bald for the record.

I'm not sure what has triggered this recent escalation? South China Sea, Taiwan tensions? Both have been going on for years now, but all of a sudden things seem to be heating up.
It’s a mixture of things, the South China Sea has been an issue for quite a while now, and the trade war with Trump certainly hasn’t helped, but more recently China is very defensive about the whole COVID thing, and unfortunately Australia joined in on the chorus of finger pointing and we just happen to be small enough that China can flex their muscles and suspend all trade with us without it doing much to their economy yet it’s brutal for ours.

It’s essentially a shot at the west by proxy, harms us, does bugger all to them and tells everyone else to back off.

I’m with Nock though, I think it’ll all blow over in the next year or two, but it’s a bit of a pain in the proverbial right now.
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The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

T_R wrote:
gergreg wrote: May 9, 2021, 4:53 pm Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and then almost out of nowhere, a new conflict?
You know, I'm not a huge fan of long haired unwashed nutcases ranting on about the military industrial complex, and I feel that 1984 while a good read has somewhat aged....but sometimes, you have to wonder if they didn't both have it 100% right.
Yeah nah stick with your first instincts on this one. While it’s true that the proverbial “war machine” of the US essentially operates non-stop actual or proxy wars in the Middle East, it’s largely about controlling assets (oil in the case of Iraq, gas in the instance of Syria).

To that end though, they don’t want to escalate a military conflict with either China or Russia, just nobody wins in that situation.

The ongoing dramas in the Middle East and any stand-off with China are two very, very different beasts.
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gangrenous
Laurie Daley
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gangrenous »

Have you told China that?
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Sterlk
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Sterlk »

The Nickman wrote: May 10, 2021, 8:35 amwe just happen to be small enough that China can flex their muscles and suspend all trade with us without it doing much to their economy yet it’s brutal for ours.
Is it? Certainly troubling for individual businesses, but from what I recall at the time a lot of our exports were being picked up elsewhere, whereas China were having power shortages as a result of their refusal to take our coal (which was in ships offshore ready and waiting).

I can certainly say that my daily life didn't seem to change much at all, whereas your regular Chinese citizen had to put up with regular power issues because their government didn't want to do business with Australia.
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T_R
Don Furner
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by T_R »

The Nickman wrote: May 9, 2021, 6:38 pm
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:So what is everyone’s thoughts on this China sitch? Going to blow over, or should I be moving out of Sydney and back to the farm?
No way man, the farms will be the first place they bomb!
Would be pointless - they own all the farms.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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