The Politics Thread 2021

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Mickey_Raider
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Mickey_Raider »

Seiffert82 wrote: March 2, 2021, 3:06 pm The MMT theory is obviously building momentum in some quarters, but there are still a lot of hairs on implementing something like this, including putting adequate controls or limits in place, as well as implementing a guaranteed employment program to manage wage growth and to control inflation.

Central banks can already create money, within the existing policy framework so we're already half way there. However, the principle of government managing debt and maintaining a budget balance sheet inherently keeps them accountable to the general public. Once you take those controls and expectations away I wouldn't trust any flavour of government to act responsibly in managing our resources.
I will just start by saying that I found your post very encouraging because for the first time, as is illustrated above, you aren't disputing the mechanics of how our money system actually works. Rather it is concerns accountability in implementing such understanding. Which is fine. The inverse is continuing to deceive people into accepting false premises such as the government being financially constrained by tax receipts the same way a household is constrained by income statements.
Seiffert82 wrote: March 2, 2021, 3:06 pm Why stop at full employment though?

If you're running with this flavour of economics then we may as well create enough money to build every homeless person a house, build national infrastructure for electric vehicles, kit out the Defence force with state of the art capability and give everyone a $10,000 stimulus bonus on the eve of the next election.
Thats a good question and whilst the point at which you activate inflation is not an exact science, full employment is understood as a good gauge at which supply capacity is at its ceiling. If you keep deficit spending and it cannot be absorbed by an increase in supply then you may trigger inflationary pressures.

But here is the thing - you posed the last part there facetiously but you inadvertently stumbled upon another good point. If we are at full employment and yet you want to build every homeless person a house - who is going to build the houses? Who is going to work to increase the building supplies? Who is going to build the national infrastructure for electric vehicles? Who is going to build the state of the art capability?

See that shortage of people there because everyone is already working? That is a real resource constraint. You have just created 1 of 2 scenarios whereby a government's desire to spend is limited - and it has nothing to do with the fact the deficit is at x billion dollars.

The other is of course, inflation. And depositing 10k in everyones account whilst almost everyone is working and earning decent wages sounds like an inflation risk in the making.
Seiffert82 wrote: March 2, 2021, 3:06 pm MMT is clearly one form of economic theory, but to me it completely ignores the most basic of economic principles in that money is just a vehicle to exchange goods and services of equal value.
This last part though is just not correct and completely ignores the theory of chartalism, which to me is fully grounded in reality.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gangrenous »

Botman wrote:
gangrenous wrote: March 4, 2021, 6:47 pm Oh dear, what is that? Ten posts of complete circle-jerk from the three of you before anyone vaguely engaged with what I actually said.
Pretty rare to get a revealing moment like that, Gangers.
In attempting to label some posters, you managed to dob yourself in.
It was revealing, just not in the way you think. You guys went to town on me without taking the time to actually look at what I said.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by T_R »

gangrenous wrote: March 4, 2021, 8:02 pm
T_R wrote:Yep, and Trump supporters generally consume very little to the left of Fox, and are drifting even further into on demand news such as OAN, since many reportedly consider Fox to be too liberal.

I seriously doubt many votes are flipped. People leaning left consume very little Fox. People leaning right are unlikely to have much time for the NYT.

The fact that there are media outlets catering for political bias is fairly revolting, but it's here to stay.

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So how does your view of the world explain the USA going from electing Obama, to nearly re-electing Donald Trump after he effectively killed hundreds of thousands of people?

I’m clearly using the US and UK as more advanced and clear cut versions of the phenomenon. You don’t have to be a dick about it when you know well why I’m doing it.
I expressed a view on the Australian electorate. Taking an entirely different set of parameters is not offering a 'clear cut version' of something - it's taking an entirely different set of parameters.

To answer your question though, (and ignoring the fact that Trump wasn't re-elected, and wasn't 'nearly' so, either) I don't really have a strong opinion or enough knowledge to discuss the level of polarisation in the States...to me, it defies rational discussion. If you're generally interested in the subject, read 'When America Stopped Being Great', by Nick Bryant. He traces (or attempts to trace) the rise of Trump all the way back to Regan. It's worth a look.

Personally, I think you could form an argument in a non-compulsory voting system, the side that feels most aggrieved at the time has a substantial advantage (and keep in mind that the country splits damn nearly down the middle - it doesn't take much to swing either way). At the end of the Bush era, which was one of wars and terrorism, people were sick of it. Obama gave a sense of fresh air. The Republicans did not have a particularly inspiring candidate, and they were looking at one who was old, had heart issues and who selected a completely deranged VP candidate that made Bush look like the Yale graduate that he was. After eight years of Obama, which was a period of increased polarisation (partly at least fueled by the democratisation of the internet), the country found themselves with the choice between a popularist 'celebrity' figure and an utterly uninspiring bureaucrat. The right were inspired to come out and vote, the left stayed home and watched Netflix. It was a poor choice and the electorate corrected itself, at all levels of Federal government, at the first opportunity.

Brexit? Well, I was flummoxed. But I believe it was largely a racist (or nationalist?) response to the EUs open borders. I'm sure others feel differently, and I'm also sure it's far more complicated than that.

But again, I was commenting on the Australian electorate.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by greeneyed »

Full grounded in reality! More like magic puddings! Thankfully, the RBA and others in charge of economic policy in Australia recognise that money becomes valueless unless it is ultimately backed by the real economy... there’s a limit to how much things can be “paid forward” before the monetary system collapses. Particularly for a small country like Australia... investors and international money markets see through that pretty quickly. Thankfully people who manage the economy understand that... and some guy in a regional university or who writes for the Sydney Morning Herald aren’t in charge.
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The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

Brexit and Trump Mark 1 were so much more a product of misinformation on social media than they ever were due to the so-called “mainstream media”

The same garbage and spreading of outright falsehoods about immigrants and muslims that led to the Christchurch massacre led directly to Trump and Brexit

Trump played the system perfectly, it’s why I was calling that he’d win the first election about a year out from when it actually happened

Much to the mirth of many of you lads at the time
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by zim »

Pretty sure you also called a Biden win too? Got any leads on this weeks powerball mate?
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

zim wrote:Pretty sure you also called a Biden win too? Got any leads on this weeks powerball mate?
I also called the Brexit result and I called the ScoMo victory and was telling anyone who would listen that Coronarivus looked “pretty serious” when it was still contained within china’s borders in January last year. All to various degrees of ridicule

Just lucky I guess
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gerg »

I can't quite keep up. Are we saying that the Murdoch empire has no influence over world politics?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by greeneyed »

gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 6:54 am I can't quite keep up. Are we saying that the Murdoch empire has no influence over world politics?

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Yes, because people don’t read the paper or watch TV anymore, and there’s social media which has podcasts.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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Of course there is influence. I just believe it is far less than Labor would have us believe. The reason I believe this is that in an age of limitless access to partisan media, people are more than at any point in modern history simply consuming media that reconfirms their own views. I used the feeble viewership figures of key Labor bugbear Sky News as an example - no one is watching except a very small core group who are well and truly already in the echo chamber.

Simple.

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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gerg »

greeneyed wrote:
gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 6:54 am I can't quite keep up. Are we saying that the Murdoch empire has no influence over world politics?

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Yes, because people don’t read the paper or watch TV anymore, and there’s social media which has podcasts.
So an old geezer who is extremely wealthy and has a direct telephone line to most world leaders. Has prospective world leaders contact him (grovelling) directly to seek his endorsement. This old guy has no influence?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gerg »

T_R wrote:Of course there is influence. I just believe it is far less than Labor would have us believe. The reason I believe this is that in an age of limitless access to partisan media, people are more than at any point in modern history simply consuming media that reconfirms their own views. I used the feeble viewership figures of key Labor bugbear Sky News as an example - no one is watching except a very small core group who are well and truly already in the echo chamber.

Simple.

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I thought both sides of politics kissed his ****?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by greeneyed »

gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 7:13 am
greeneyed wrote:
gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 6:54 am I can't quite keep up. Are we saying that the Murdoch empire has no influence over world politics?

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Yes, because people don’t read the paper or watch TV anymore, and there’s social media which has podcasts.
So an old geezer who is extremely wealthy and has a direct telephone line to most world leaders. Has prospective world leaders contact him (grovelling) directly to seek his endorsement. This old guy has no influence?

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No. Because people already only read the papers and TV with the political views they like.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by gerg »

greeneyed wrote:
gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 7:13 am
greeneyed wrote:
gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 6:54 am I can't quite keep up. Are we saying that the Murdoch empire has no influence over world politics?

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Yes, because people don’t read the paper or watch TV anymore, and there’s social media which has podcasts.
So an old geezer who is extremely wealthy and has a direct telephone line to most world leaders. Has prospective world leaders contact him (grovelling) directly to seek his endorsement. This old guy has no influence?

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No. Because people already only read the papers and TV with the political views they like.
So why does every politician who has ambition for the top job (in most countries) seek him out for his endorsement? These are extremely busy people, why would they waste their time?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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T_R wrote: March 5, 2021, 7:11 am Of course there is influence. I just believe it is far less than Labor would have us believe. The reason I believe this is that in an age of limitless access to partisan media, people are more than at any point in modern history simply consuming media that reconfirms their own views. I used the feeble viewership figures of key Labor bugbear Sky News as an example - no one is watching except a very small core group who are well and truly already in the echo chamber.

Simple.

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I mean this sums up my whole argument perfectly. And since the last election, the "unlosable" election where Shorten was soundly thrashed by ScoMo, Labor supporters have used Mudoch as a crutch to excuse the fact their party is utterly directionless, incompetent and toothless.

If I had to pigeonhole myself, I'd call myself a "liberal conservative", which means I'm right of centre economically, but very, very left socially. I firmly believe in a strong economy where the government doesn't own everything, but I'm also a firm champion of equal rights for everybody. In social media "discussions" I have the rare talent that I'm labelled both left AND right by whoever I'm currently arguing with.

But why would I vote for Labor? Their economic mismanagement has stood the test of time, but what do they stand for socially? They didn't even bring in same-sex marriage F F S!! And they had an openly gay cabinet minister who towed the "party line" and said marriage should be a union between man and woman. If Labor were ever going to steal my vote, implementing strong social change is the way to do it and they absolutely **** the bed on that one, allowing the liberals to swoop in and do it (albeit in a roundabout way in order to appease the nut-jobs in their supporter base).

And just going "Durrrr coal bad, close coal mines" ain't gonna do it for me. Enact proper climate change measures, not just ridiculous knee-jerk reactions that endanger people's livelihoods.

Rant over.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Northern Raider »

ALP didn't lose the last election because of the Murdoch media. They lost because Bill Shorten was leader.
* The author assumes no responsibility for the topicality, correctness, completeness or quality of information provided.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

Northern Raider wrote: March 5, 2021, 8:15 am ALP didn't lose the last election because of the Murdoch media. They lost because Bill Shorten was leader.
Absolutely. They also completely lost a huge part of their base. Nobody in the coal industry voted for Labor this time around, and traditionally miners and tradies have all been Labor's bread and butter. I'm not even sure many of the painters and builders I know voted for Labor, as they all are busy when the mining industry booms and miners are spending money. Nobody wanted a minority Labor/Greens government breathing down their necks.

But nobody's voting in a party that directly threatens their jobs and livelihoods, not a single one of you would do it, despite the high horses so many public servants love to cast stones from.

And it's pretty easy for guys like gangers and GE who only know other public servants to claim everyone else are in echo chambers and it must be media bias that's at fault.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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gangrenous wrote: March 4, 2021, 8:48 pm
Botman wrote:
gangrenous wrote: March 4, 2021, 6:47 pm Oh dear, what is that? Ten posts of complete circle-jerk from the three of you before anyone vaguely engaged with what I actually said.
Pretty rare to get a revealing moment like that, Gangers.
In attempting to label some posters, you managed to dob yourself in.
It was revealing, just not in the way you think. You guys went to town on me without taking the time to actually look at what I said.
We all saw what you said, its clear.
But im sure if you ask your circle of friends, you'll get the affirmation you're looking for ;)
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by hobbsy »

It feels like there's 2 different conversations happening here
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

greeneyed wrote: March 5, 2021, 7:16 am
gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 7:13 am
greeneyed wrote:
gergreg wrote: March 5, 2021, 6:54 am I can't quite keep up. Are we saying that the Murdoch empire has no influence over world politics?

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Yes, because people don’t read the paper or watch TV anymore, and there’s social media which has podcasts.
So an old geezer who is extremely wealthy and has a direct telephone line to most world leaders. Has prospective world leaders contact him (grovelling) directly to seek his endorsement. This old guy has no influence?

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No. Because people already only read the papers and TV with the political views they like.
Extremely disingenuous stuff, very unsurprising.
No one has said it has no impact, what has been said is the impact is grossly overstated for reasons we've outlined, the impact is declining at a rapid rate for reasons outlined, what impact exists is certainly not election shifting.

And I myself have said a person who has not voted for LNP in any of the last 3 state or federal elections, someone who wants to see someone else outside of the LNP in power, the so called "murdoch media" problem would rank well outside the top 5 of issues the ALP need to address if they're going to convince the Australian people to give them a power and a long enough rope to achieve. First and foremost, they need to put together a shadow leader, cabinet and policy platform that gives swing voters a reason to vote for them.
Their inability to do that for the vast majority of the last 2 decades has nothing to do with Murdoch and everything to do with the party. The LNP is dealing with god knows how many RAPE accusations and have a MAJOR image and PR problem on their hands right now and even STILL, Albo can't get a **** sound bite out there that stirs any emotion :lol:
You just wont win elections with that sort of leader. Simple. It's not as if ScoMo is some incredibly popular and capable leader. If he was running against anyone competent, he'd be on course to get his **** thrown out next election.


Lastly, i want to thank TR and Nickman for their extremely interesting contributions to this thread. I've found their posts very enlightening. Their thoughts mirror the thoughts of people i speak with on a daily basis. They should be commended for their input. As for the rest of you, and as was saying to some mates the other day, which we all agreed on, maybe those who dont see it this way should be more receptive to listening to other peoples views will help you understand how wrong you are.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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Botman wrote: March 5, 2021, 8:47 am Lastly, i want to thank TR and Nickman for their extremely interesting contributions to this thread. I've found their posts very enlightening. Their thoughts mirror the thoughts of people i speak with on a daily basis. They should be commended for their input. As for the rest of you, and as was saying to some mates the other day, which we all agreed on, maybe those who dont see it this way should be more receptive to listening to other peoples views will help you understand how wrong you are.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: *kisses fingers*

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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by greeneyed »

I don’t have much interest in what the ALP needs to do to win an election. They’re all politicians in the end. No party really represents my views. I have “liberal” social views and believe in well run, market economies, with stable long macroeconomic policies and governments intervening only when there’s a very clear need due to market failure.

I’ve got strong views though, on what’s happening to media and how narrow, extreme interests are seizing control of power... I won’t repeat all the arguments. I’ve outlined them already. But don’t equivalise those views to support for the Labor Party or suggest I’m making any excuse for them losing elections. I don’t care too much about it... all the politicians end up caring simply about power. Both sides of politics have major flaws and don’t represent my views.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by greeneyed »

Botman wrote: March 5, 2021, 8:47 am
Lastly, i want to thank TR and Nickman for their extremely interesting contributions to this thread. I've found their posts very enlightening. Their thoughts mirror the thoughts of people i speak with on a daily basis. They should be commended for their input. As for the rest of you, and as was saying to some mates the other day, which we all agreed on, maybe those who dont see it this way should be more receptive to listening to other peoples views will help you understand how wrong you are.
And everybody else is in an echo chamber... but seems like you’ve got a good echo chamber going there! :hmmm
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

greeneyed wrote: March 5, 2021, 9:02 am I don’t have much interest in what the ALP needs to do to win an election. They’re all politicians in the end. No party really represents my views. I have “liberal” social views and believe in well run, market economies, with stable long macroeconomic policies and governments intervening only when there’s a very clear need due to market failure.

I’ve got strong views though, on what’s happening to media and how narrow, extreme interests are seizing control of power... I won’t repeat all the arguments. I’ve outlined them already. But don’t equivalise those views to support for the Labor Party or suggest I’m making any excuse for them losing elections. I don’t care too much about it... all the politicians end up caring simply about power. Both sides of politics have major flaws and don’t represent my views.
I agree with this post, strongly. I voted for Morrison in the last election, but didn't like doing it. I won't vote for Labor in their current form though, I just don't see how they're better for the country, like I said, they couldn't even get same-sex marriage over the line!

If Dutton had beaten ScoMo I suspect I would've voted Labor, I have actually voted for them in the past, and I'm sure I will again in the future when the conditions are right. I doubt I would've voted for Abbot again if Turnbull hadn't rolled him, but I voted for Abbot against Rudd. Just didn't realise how much of a complete monster he was. I really liked Malcolm Turnbull though, it was such a shame what happened to him, he would've beaten Shorten even more soundly than ScoMo did, and would currently be lining up for a third term and to rival John Howard as our best prime minister in my lifetime.

This is the interesting thing about this discussion, I've voted both sides of the fence, I'm fairly certain Botman and TR both have as well... wondering if the likes of gangrenous have ever voted the Libs?
Last edited by The Nickman on March 5, 2021, 9:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

greeneyed wrote: March 5, 2021, 9:06 am
Botman wrote: March 5, 2021, 8:47 am
Lastly, i want to thank TR and Nickman for their extremely interesting contributions to this thread. I've found their posts very enlightening. Their thoughts mirror the thoughts of people i speak with on a daily basis. They should be commended for their input. As for the rest of you, and as was saying to some mates the other day, which we all agreed on, maybe those who dont see it this way should be more receptive to listening to other peoples views will help you understand how wrong you are.
And everybody else is in an echo chamber... but seems like you’ve got a good echo chamber going there! :hmmm
Ooooooof! That's a BIG dubby there, Ferg... my god it's been a day for it!
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

My goodness!
I really, REALLY didnt think i'd caught a big ol whale on that one!

Take a shower, GE. The stink of that will take some scrubbing to get off
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by The Nickman »

Botman wrote: March 5, 2021, 9:10 am My goodness!
I really, REALLY didnt think i'd caught a big ol whale on that one!

Take a shower, GE. The stink of that will take some scrubbing to get off
That's... incredible
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Botman »

edit
Last edited by Botman on March 5, 2021, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

Post by Mickey_Raider »

The Nickman wrote: March 5, 2021, 8:10 am
T_R wrote: March 5, 2021, 7:11 am Of course there is influence. I just believe it is far less than Labor would have us believe. The reason I believe this is that in an age of limitless access to partisan media, people are more than at any point in modern history simply consuming media that reconfirms their own views. I used the feeble viewership figures of key Labor bugbear Sky News as an example - no one is watching except a very small core group who are well and truly already in the echo chamber.

Simple.

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I mean this sums up my whole argument perfectly. And since the last election, the "unlosable" election where Shorten was soundly thrashed by ScoMo, Labor supporters have used Mudoch as a crutch to excuse the fact their party is utterly directionless, incompetent and toothless.

If I had to pigeonhole myself, I'd call myself a "liberal conservative", which means I'm right of centre economically, but very, very left socially. I firmly believe in a strong economy where the government doesn't own everything, but I'm also a firm champion of equal rights for everybody. In social media "discussions" I have the rare talent that I'm labelled both left AND right by whoever I'm currently arguing with.

But why would I vote for Labor? Their economic mismanagement has stood the test of time, but what do they stand for socially? They didn't even bring in same-sex marriage F F S!! And they had an openly gay cabinet minister who towed the "party line" and said marriage should be a union between man and woman. If Labor were ever going to steal my vote, implementing strong social change is the way to do it and they absolutely **** the bed on that one, allowing the liberals to swoop in and do it (albeit in a roundabout way in order to appease the nut-jobs in their supporter base).

And just going "Durrrr coal bad, close coal mines" ain't gonna do it for me. Enact proper climate change measures, not just ridiculous knee-jerk reactions that endanger people's livelihoods.

Rant over.
Can I just stop you at your “financial mismanagement” point.

Im what ways have Labor mismanaged the countries finances?

Have you ever actually taken stock and looked at the LNPs “management” of public resources in delivering outcomes?

Energy policy = absolute mess (see blowing up of the neg)
Tech/communications = absolute mess (see NBN)
Aged care = absolute mess (see royal commission findings)
Social services = absolute mess (see robodebt)
IR = mess. Wages have stagnated since 2013.

Then you have scandal after scandal which often involve the rorting of public resources for their own political gain.

I mean this sincerely - what is it the LNP have down policy wise to earn a perpetual stint in power?

I have gone to great lengths to explain why the delivery of surpluses is a completely misguided way to measure good financial mgmt. but even if you do use that as a yardstick, have you noticed that the so called “debt” has quadrupled since LNP have been in power?
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Mickey_Raider
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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I will also add that I believe that Labor will be winning the next election as a minority government.

Labor will flip porters seat, the seat of boothby and a couple others in QLD, Tasmania and WA.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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Mickey_Raider wrote: March 5, 2021, 9:29 am I will also add that I believe that Labor will be winning the next election as a minority government.

Labor will flip porters seat, the seat of boothby and a couple others in QLD, Tasmania and WA.
I don't. No chance at this point in time.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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The Nickman wrote: March 5, 2021, 9:08 am This is the interesting thing about this discussion, I've voted both sides of the fence, I'm fairly certain Botman and TR both have as well... wondering if the likes of gangrenous have ever voted the Libs?
I dont think i qualify anymore.
I dont keep a score card or anything, its just off memory, but i think the last time i voted anything that could be considered conservative was in my early 20's
As ive stated Im pretty sure the last 3 state and federal elections i've voted a mix of ALP and left leaning, progressive independents.

They may not like it, because im not willing to blame all the countries ill's on Murdoch media or agree that it's a bedrock of how the LNP keep getting into power, but where i sit on the political spectrum is rather clear. And it's with them. :lol:

I mean this is all very similar to arguments ive had with these guys for year about the Raiders and Refereeing.
Obviously the scales and stakes are different but at it's core, it's the same principle

The Raiders had major problems on and off the park which gave them little to no hope of sustained success in the competition they are in. Some people felt that on top of that, there was this big bad evil we also had to contend with, and that contributed heavily to holding us back

The ALP (this is a two party system, so ultimately when talking elections, we're talking ALP v LNP) have major problems on and off their respective field, and it leaves them little to no hope of sustained success in the election cycle. Some people here feel on top of that, there is this big bad evil they also have to contend with, the murdoch media.

Just like that previous argument. No one at any point said referees dont have some influence. Nor is being said the Murdoch doesnt have some influence. What is being said is that the influence is both cases is grossly overstated.

So where to now?
Well the Raiders fixed the things within their power. They got their **** together and have made themselves the strongest version of themselves. And what happened? We've had a period of 5 years (an age in sports) of success not seen in the 25 years prior. The refereeing didn't change. We did. And now we win, and compete against any club, regardless of what natural or unnatural advantages they may or may be perceived to have. Unless someone of these guys are going to sit here and tell me the refereeing changed and now we're getting the benefits of bad refereeing, evidently we can confidently conclude now that those people who yelled and screamed about officiating overstated it's impact on our ability to be successful as a football club.

The ALP need to fix the things within their power, and im extremely confident if they do that, they'll see the same result. That if they present themselves as a good, competent party, which inspires confidence in the electorate, they too will see long sustained success, and they'll realise the impact of Murdoch media is and has been overstated. And if they still have their bee in a bonnet about that, guess what? You're in power, so go and do the Rudd Royal Commission on Murdoch Media. Then you solve that problem too.

I would dearly love this Morrison Government to get it's **** handed to it next election by an coalition of independents affiliated to no party, and deliver on a progressive policy platform that i think the country needs. But im a realist, that's not happening, so the ALP are the only viable alternative. So id rather focus on what they need to do, to succeed than waste time on the big bad refereeing boogieman
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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Mickey_Raider wrote: March 4, 2021, 8:43 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: March 2, 2021, 3:06 pm The MMT theory is obviously building momentum in some quarters, but there are still a lot of hairs on implementing something like this, including putting adequate controls or limits in place, as well as implementing a guaranteed employment program to manage wage growth and to control inflation.

Central banks can already create money, within the existing policy framework so we're already half way there. However, the principle of government managing debt and maintaining a budget balance sheet inherently keeps them accountable to the general public. Once you take those controls and expectations away I wouldn't trust any flavour of government to act responsibly in managing our resources.
I will just start by saying that I found your post very encouraging because for the first time, as is illustrated above, you aren't disputing the mechanics of how our money system actually works. Rather it is concerns accountability in implementing such understanding. Which is fine. The inverse is continuing to deceive people into accepting false premises such as the government being financially constrained by tax receipts the same way a household is constrained by income statements.
We absolutely agree that money can be 'created' whether it is by a central bank or directly by government. That was never in doubt. The point of contention is whether the funds that have been created are associated with debt (such as a bond) or whether they just appear on the government's account ledger. The premise there is that the government is playing by a different set of accounting rules to other entities.

On the analogy with households - I think the way governments operate their budget is very much aligned with how households manage theirs. As you say, tax receipts are the equivalent of income; while both entities can borrow money as an additional source of capital, and in both cases those loans are paid back with interest.

In essence, MMT proposes that governments play by a different set of rules and are not obligated to loan money from the private sector to raise capital.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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Mickey_Raider wrote: March 4, 2021, 8:43 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: March 2, 2021, 3:06 pm Why stop at full employment though?

If you're running with this flavour of economics then we may as well create enough money to build every homeless person a house, build national infrastructure for electric vehicles, kit out the Defence force with state of the art capability and give everyone a $10,000 stimulus bonus on the eve of the next election.
Thats a good question and whilst the point at which you activate inflation is not an exact science, full employment is understood as a good gauge at which supply capacity is at its ceiling. If you keep deficit spending and it cannot be absorbed by an increase in supply then you may trigger inflationary pressures.

But here is the thing - you posed the last part there facetiously but you inadvertently stumbled upon another good point. If we are at full employment and yet you want to build every homeless person a house - who is going to build the houses? Who is going to work to increase the building supplies? Who is going to build the national infrastructure for electric vehicles? Who is going to build the state of the art capability?

See that shortage of people there because everyone is already working? That is a real resource constraint. You have just created 1 of 2 scenarios whereby a government's desire to spend is limited - and it has nothing to do with the fact the deficit is at x billion dollars.

The other is of course, inflation. And depositing 10k in everyones account whilst almost everyone is working and earning decent wages sounds like an inflation risk in the making.
I was obviously being facetious, but yes, they key thing here is constraining inflation. A bonus $10k in everyone's account would obviously be an inflationary policy position, but it would also buy a lot of votes.

My point is MMT is not a new theory. It opens the door for really, really poor financial management if those powers were abused. Post WWII Germany and recent experiences in Zimbabwe are a testament as to how an economic framework that allows the government to play by different rules to everyone else can go pear shaped very quickly.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2021

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Seiffert82 wrote: March 5, 2021, 9:51 am
Mickey_Raider wrote: March 4, 2021, 8:43 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: March 2, 2021, 3:06 pm Why stop at full employment though?

If you're running with this flavour of economics then we may as well create enough money to build every homeless person a house, build national infrastructure for electric vehicles, kit out the Defence force with state of the art capability and give everyone a $10,000 stimulus bonus on the eve of the next election.
Thats a good question and whilst the point at which you activate inflation is not an exact science, full employment is understood as a good gauge at which supply capacity is at its ceiling. If you keep deficit spending and it cannot be absorbed by an increase in supply then you may trigger inflationary pressures.

But here is the thing - you posed the last part there facetiously but you inadvertently stumbled upon another good point. If we are at full employment and yet you want to build every homeless person a house - who is going to build the houses? Who is going to work to increase the building supplies? Who is going to build the national infrastructure for electric vehicles? Who is going to build the state of the art capability?

See that shortage of people there because everyone is already working? That is a real resource constraint. You have just created 1 of 2 scenarios whereby a government's desire to spend is limited - and it has nothing to do with the fact the deficit is at x billion dollars.

The other is of course, inflation. And depositing 10k in everyones account whilst almost everyone is working and earning decent wages sounds like an inflation risk in the making.
I was obviously being facetious, but yes, they key thing here is constraining inflation. A bonus $10k in everyone's account would obviously be an inflationary policy position, but it would also buy a lot of votes.

My point is MMT is not a new theory. It opens the door for really, really poor financial management if those powers were abused. Post WWII Germany and recent experiences in Zimbabwe are a testament as to how this policy can go pear shaped if abused.
MMT isn’t really a policy platform though. When people talk about “implementing MMT” it is a bit of a furphy, because the theory is just a descriptive analysis of how fiat monetary systems operate

Yes, there is a sole policy prescription of a transition jobs program but that is more a natural corollary of this understanding. You can operate an economy through the proper lens without implementing it per se.

When you talk about opening the door for financial mismanagement, what you’re really saying is that we must continue to endorse a false premise so that we can continue to live through a certain paradigm.

What you are really endorsing is that, for example in the US, there must be tens of millions of people left in squalor to fight the spectre of inflation and justified by the grotesque NAIRU principle because the alternative is economic mismanagement.

I think deliberately keeping a massive amount of people in unemployment is economic mismanagement.
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