The Politics Thread 2020

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Seiffert82
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

Post by Seiffert82 »

rayden83 wrote: November 9, 2020, 6:35 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: November 9, 2020, 4:52 pm
rayden83 wrote: November 8, 2020, 4:55 pm
It just so sad that people have lost their minds and use the media to fill the space in their skulls where the brain should be.
Rayden, Trump did NOT provide "millions" of ventilators to hospitals in the US. The US don't have millions of ventilators and there is no credible reports indicating that the president did anything of the sort.

The WHO most certainly have NOT recommended against lockdowns. They have indicated that lockdowns ALONE won't stop the spread, and they have also acknowledged that poor countries must consider the economic impacts of locking down when the lives of vulnerable people are hanging in the balance.

Comparing the US response to COVID with the some of the worst examples across the globe does nothing to support the Trump administration's reaction to the virus. He will always be remembered for his suggestion to "inject patients with disinfectant" or bombard them with "tremendous amounts of light" as a treatment for the virus. He will also ultimately be remembered for organising re-election rallies which directly resulted in hundreds of people dying as a result of contracting the virus. He encouraged people to rebel against lockdowns and ridiculed those who attempted to control the virus by wearing masks etc. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether that response was befitting a president.

As a global superpower, the USA's response to COVID has been slow, disorganised, confusing and has ultimately lost Trump the election. He was on track to win the thing until the virus came and exposed his lack of leadership and sophistication in handling a complex problem which had economic, health, social and political implications. He ultimately couldn't convince the majority of people that the virus would magically disappear. He surrounded himself with yes men and idiots and as a result he ultimately got what he deserved.
lol: The WHO did recommend against lock downs other than for the purpose of getting their houses in order, building testing capacity and stocking hospitals with masks and equipment, which Trump achieved during the initial lockdowns in March / April. The idea of locking down to suppress , contain and/or eradicating the virus is not endorsed by WHO, so the opposite to locking down is opening up which is exactly the path Trump has tried to take to mitigate against a mental health and economic crisis. In fact the jobless rate is approaching normal levels and the USA experienced its faster ever quarterly GPD growth rate, thanks to Trump.

As for the rallies, I find it preposterous that people like yourself excoriate Trump and his supporters for holding rallies while remaining totally silent on BLM protests that literally swept the world, and then excruciatingly attempting to justify it with obscene platitudes like “racism is also a pandemic”. If hundreds of people died as a result of the rallies then you would have to deduce that tens of thousands have died as a result of the protests, and that would be blood on the hands of Fauci, the Democrats and the mainstream media who egged the protestors on. Not that they care. And now despite all the hysteria about Trump’s rallies and lack of social distancing we have literally millions of Biden supporters pouring onto the streets basically grinding on each other, and Biden and his mass media entourage seem to have suddenly forgotten about covid. The hypocrisy is palpable.

At the end of the day this all about optics rather than Trump’s management of the virus. The cases were growing, then Floyd happened, and the Democrats did an amazing number on the American people whipping up fake covid hysteria and then blending it with an even faker systemic racism storm to present a 2020 election narrative to the American people that the President mismanaged Covid “costing 200,000 lives” and was a “white supremacist”, to be marketed by a bloodthirsty media in collaboration with tech social media platforms to ensure this message was repeated ad nauseum until the election. So despite not bungling the covid response what he did bungle was the PR side of things, failing to clearly articulate the governments strategy, instead crapping on about vaccines and fake treatments and closing the border to china when he should have focused purely on the economy.
Trump did nothing of the sort with lockdowns.

Trump promoted Republican rallies. I was not aware that the BLM protests were engineered by the left or the Democratic party. I was under the impression it was a social movement driven by people opposed to racism. You have drawn the link to that and left wing politics. Sorry, I didn't really follow how social media (by definition driven by absolutely anyone with an internet connection) has somehow been engineered against Trump. Not sure what Fauci has to do with racism or this 'fake' storm which was magically whipped up out of nowhere against the President. I'm also not aware of Biden or the Democratic party actively encouraging supporters grinding in celebration on the streets.

You're now just regurgitating the rhetoric of the last 4 years.

Trump was hoping to ride the wave of the global economic cycle clawing the country out of recession. Things were looking good for him until he hit a hurdle he couldn't talk his way out of. As a result, the county is peaking COVID cases, the economy is tanking yet again, domestic race relations are at an all-time low, international relations with the EU and China are ****, the country is divided across rural and urban communities, the middle east has greater access to US military capabilities, and the loud ****heads with guns have even more reason to be loud ****heads.

By any measure he has been a failure.

He did cut company tax though.
Last edited by Seiffert82 on November 9, 2020, 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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Imagine thinking that the Trump government's response was a failure of PR and optics... Imagine it for one moment? hahah
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
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WHERE UserName = 'Aknalkfgnaa' OR 'Yeah Raiders' OR 'Billy B'
EXEC RAND(good_grief; cheak_notes; uh82cit;)

GO;
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by gangrenous »

No one knows what it’s like to be the bad man, to be the sad man.

Behind blue eyes.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: November 9, 2020, 7:47 pm I completely agree Rayden, these are good people on both sides.

I can not even imagine how **** ridiculous you'd have to be to go down on the Trump ship. Help me understand.
Why even bother? The fact that 70 million people voted for him should tell you something. Its not just rednecks and KKK members who voted, he cultivated about 45% of the votes in place like New York, Maine, New Hampshire etc. Look at places like Staten Island which has oscillated between Republicans and Democrats for decades, he canvassed around 70% of the vote and improved on his numbers from last time. What blind fools and idiots they are!

Maybe they are brainwashed fools who were blinded by Trump’s personality cult while he exploited their base prejudices. Or maybe they like stuff like law and order, and jobs, and think defunding police and critical race theory is dumb. Or maybe you are just an intolerant bigot who is so full of blazing hubris that you’re unable to empathise with any opinion other than your own,

Oh why even bother with all these vacuous theories, the answer is obvious! People like you Botman, are emotionally, intellectually and morally superior to ALL Republicans. Vulgar, stupid people like me should bow to you so you can guide us to progressive nirvana. Congrats :clap:
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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That's probably the best and most accurate post you've made in this thread thus far.
Progress is important. Well done. You nailed at least 99% of that.

FWIW i couldnt give the faintest **** about how many redneck idiots voted for him. It wasnt enough. The result came a little differently because of the nature of 2020 but any which way you want to slice it, the american people have said enough to his Bull and there is no question history will record him as the bumbling **** he is.

****, the **** guy was born on 3rd base and think he hit a triple, he took his fathers fortune and has steadily whittled it away, he mananged to fail at running a casino! A casino ****! Where the odds are literally stacked against losing money and this absolute **** stain managed to **** up printing money. Can you even imagine it?
I can't.

But here we are, he was trounced in the popular vote, when it's all said and done he'll be trounced in the electoral college. And he's proving himself again to be a man devoid of any integrity, even in the face of absolutely crippling and devestating defeat. Frankly, he got his **** kicked, perhaps not quite to the level reasonable people had hope, but it's a solid thrashing... and even so this drooling **** idiot refused to even have the balls to concede, to admit he lost. Absolute coward. A true mark of the man.
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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When his businesses failed he blamed his employees, rather than the exec (aka himself) that ran those businesses onto the ground

Says a lot really

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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

Post by rayden83 »

Seiffert82 wrote: November 9, 2020, 7:48 pm Trump promoted Republican rallies. I was not aware that the BLM protests were engineered by the left or the Democratic party. I was under the impression it was a social movement driven by people opposed to racism. You have drawn the link to that and left wing politics. Sorry, I didn't really follow how social media (by definition driven by absolutely anyone with an internet connection) has somehow been engineered against Trump. Not sure what Fauci has to do with racism or this 'fake' storm which was magically whipped up out of nowhere against the President. I'm also not aware of Biden or the Democratic party actively encouraging supporters grinding in celebration on the streets.
I'm sorry you just don't the follow the news enough, or maybe you just stick to left wing sources like CNN which only promote a singular biased view. If you had basic knowledge of BLM you would know Democrat party members have attended, spoken and lead BLM protests, taking the knee, while actively promoting the defunding and abolishment of police. It's just unbelievable that you would bury your head so deep in the sand and pretend there is no hypocrisy between how Trump rallies and BLM rallies are treated by politicians and the media. Even Fauci failed, when asked, to condemn BLM protests, but had no problems bashing Trump rallies. And now you're juxtaposing "not being aware of Biden or the Democrat party actively encouraging supporters" with "Trump promoting rallies" while failing to mention
that no Democrat, has ever, at any point, condemned BLM protests or cited their risk to public safety. Spare me.
Trump was hoping to ride the wave of the global economic cycle clawing the country out of recession. Things were looking good for him until he hit a hurdle he couldn't talk his way out of. As a result, the county is peaking COVID cases, the economy is tanking yet again, domestic race relations are at an all-time low, international relations with the EU and China are ****, the country is divided across rural and urban communities, the middle east has greater access to US military capabilities, and the loud ****heads with guns have even more reason to be loud ****heads.
Heaps of countries are peaking with COVID cases. France, Spain, Italy, UK, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark etc etc etc. Winter forces people indoors so they are more likely to catch it from friends, colleagues, family, guests etc. No nefarious intentions by Trump, it's just what happens with pandemics.

GDP grew by 33% last quarter and unemployment is down to about 7%.

Race relations should be better than ever. Trump gave blacks their lowest unemployment number ever, reformed criminal justice and about halved the rate of unarmed blacks shot by police. If blacks are super angry it's because they've been sold a fake systemic racism narrative.

The cities and rural America have always been divided. Cities are about 80% Democrat and rural is about 80% Republican. No shock here.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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Botman wrote: November 9, 2020, 8:41 pm That's probably the best and most accurate post you've made in this thread thus far.
Progress is important. Well done. You nailed at least 99% of that.

FWIW i couldnt give the faintest **** about how many redneck idiots voted for him. It wasnt enough. The result came a little differently because of the nature of 2020 but any which way you want to slice it, the american people have said enough to his Bull and there is no question history will record him as the bumbling **** he is.

****, the **** guy was born on 3rd base and think he hit a triple, he took his fathers fortune and has steadily whittled it away, he mananged to fail at running a casino! A casino ****! Where the odds are literally stacked against losing money and this absolute **** stain managed to **** up printing money. Can you even imagine it?
I can't.

But here we are, he was trounced in the popular vote, when it's all said and done he'll be trounced in the electoral college. And he's proving himself again to be a man devoid of any integrity, even in the face of absolutely crippling and devestating defeat. Frankly, he got his **** kicked, perhaps not quite to the level reasonable people had hope, but it's a solid thrashing... and even so this drooling **** idiot refused to even have the balls to concede, to admit he lost. Absolute coward. A true mark of the man.
And yet people still voted for him, around 70 million. Let's suppose all those things are true, that he failed at running casino ( where the odds are literally stacked against losing money rofl :cmon :cmon and he still ended up losing money rofl!!! :cmon :cmon :x ) and that he's a drooling idiot and all those other things you said. He also reduced black, latino and female employment to the lowest level ever. He reformed criminal justice. He created millions of jobs. He defended law enforcement. He funded the military. He reformed veteran affairs, he negotiated multiple peace agreements in the ME, he settled tensions with NK. He basically did a lot of good things in his administration. Some people care more about policy and actions than zeroing on their personality flaws to the exclusion of all else.

If only you Botman, had his fortune, you would've turned it into trillions. You're amazing Botman, Trump must envy you in your shirt Raiders while sculling a bottle of lime milk. Go Botman!
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

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rayden83 wrote: November 9, 2020, 9:24 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: November 9, 2020, 7:48 pm Trump promoted Republican rallies. I was not aware that the BLM protests were engineered by the left or the Democratic party. I was under the impression it was a social movement driven by people opposed to racism. You have drawn the link to that and left wing politics. Sorry, I didn't really follow how social media (by definition driven by absolutely anyone with an internet connection) has somehow been engineered against Trump. Not sure what Fauci has to do with racism or this 'fake' storm which was magically whipped up out of nowhere against the President. I'm also not aware of Biden or the Democratic party actively encouraging supporters grinding in celebration on the streets.
I'm sorry you just don't the follow the news enough, or maybe you just stick to left wing sources like CNN which only promote a singular biased view. If you had basic knowledge of BLM you would know Democrat party members have attended, spoken and lead BLM protests, taking the knee, while actively promoting the defunding and abolishment of police. It's just unbelievable that you would bury your head so deep in the sand and pretend there is no hypocrisy between how Trump rallies and BLM rallies are treated by politicians and the media. Even Fauci failed, when asked, to condemn BLM protests, but had no problems bashing Trump rallies. And now you're juxtaposing "not being aware of Biden or the Democrat party actively encouraging supporters" with "Trump promoting rallies" while failing to mention
that no Democrat, has ever, at any point, condemned BLM protests or cited their risk to public safety. Spare me.
Trump was hoping to ride the wave of the global economic cycle clawing the country out of recession. Things were looking good for him until he hit a hurdle he couldn't talk his way out of. As a result, the county is peaking COVID cases, the economy is tanking yet again, domestic race relations are at an all-time low, international relations with the EU and China are ****, the country is divided across rural and urban communities, the middle east has greater access to US military capabilities, and the loud ****heads with guns have even more reason to be loud ****heads.
Heaps of countries are peaking with COVID cases. France, Spain, Italy, UK, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark etc etc etc. Winter forces people indoors so they are more likely to catch it from friends, colleagues, family, guests etc. No nefarious intentions by Trump, it's just what happens with pandemics.

GDP grew by 33% last quarter and unemployment is down to about 7%.

Race relations should be better than ever. Trump gave blacks their lowest unemployment number ever, reformed criminal justice and about halved the rate of unarmed blacks shot by police. If blacks are super angry it's because they've been sold a fake systemic racism narrative.

The cities and rural America have always been divided. Cities are about 80% Democrat and rural is about 80% Republican. No shock here.
The US economy bounced back after a record 31% drop the quarter before. The real rate of unemployment is closer to 12%.

Yep, I think we can agree that plenty of countries are completely dropping the ball with COVID. The USA are the top of that list. The platform was set in summer when they should have done more to get on top of it.

Who in the Democratic party called for the police to be defunded? From what I can gather, politicians across the board were encouraging BLM protesters to wear masks and socially distance as much as possible.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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rayden83 wrote: November 9, 2020, 9:42 pm If only you Botman, had his fortune, you would've turned it into trillions. You're amazing Botman, Trump must envy you in your shirt Raiders while sculling a bottle of lime milk. Go Botman!

Turned it into Trillions?
Na, i'd have sat on my **** and let that fortune collect interest and guess what? If i did do that, i'd have more wealth than Trump :lol:
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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I don't particularly want to be drawn into this argument but how can Trump be credited for easing tension in North Korea when he singlehandedly was the 100% cause in the escalation of those tensions?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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Anybody watch 4corners?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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Nice to see Trump going out with one last grift, sending out mass emails asking for donations to help pay for the recounts while the fine print says 50-60% of the proceeds will go to paying off campaign debts. Credit where it’s due though if he’s going to pay off debts, first time for everything.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by BJ »

I can’t understand how anyone can claim that Covid kills the same percentage of people as does the annual flu.

Do they really think ‘people with or potentially with’ the flu are getting tested for the flu to the same level as Covid testing? Imagine how many people each year have caught the flu each year without formally knowing it or being actually tested?

How many people are tested for the flu each year outside those who attend hospital with the flu? The ‘Divisor’ for the flu calculation is a magnitude of times smaller than the divisor for Covid.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

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BJ wrote: November 10, 2020, 3:24 pm I can’t understand how anyone can claim that Covid kills the same percentage of people as does the annual flu.

Do they really think ‘people with or potentially with’ the flu are getting tested for the flu to the same level as Covid testing? Imagine how many people each year have caught the flu each year without formally knowing it or being actually tested?

How many people are tested for the flu each year outside those who attend hospital with the flu? The ‘Divisor’ for the flu calculation is a magnitude of times smaller than the divisor for Covid.
Even based on existing data it appears that the COVID mortality rate is around 3-4%, which is higher than early projections of 1-2% (which I originally expected it to be).

In comparison, flu kills around 0.1% of known cases - as you say though, the number of flu cases each year would be rubbery at best.

rayden quoted Singapore as the comparison country, as they have a COVID mortality rate of about 0.5%, but they don't include non-pneumonia type deaths in their count, such as those who died of COVID related blood or heart issues. Just about every other country is reporting a 3-4% mortality rate, so there is definitely something different about those Singapore figures.
Last edited by Seiffert82 on November 10, 2020, 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

Post by rayden83 »

Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 12:03 am The US economy bounced back after a record 31% drop the quarter before. The real rate of unemployment is closer to 12%.

Yep, I think we can agree that plenty of countries are completely dropping the ball with COVID. The USA are the top of that list. The platform was set in summer when they should have done more to get on top of it.

Who in the Democratic party called for the police to be defunded? From what I can gather, politicians across the board were encouraging BLM protesters to wear masks and socially distance as much as possible.
Current official US unemployment rate is 6.9%.

Top of the list? USA is behind Spain, Brazil and Belgium in terms of the deaths per capita. US is 10th in the world, UK is 12th and Italy is 14th.

Done what to get on top of it? Masks? Shut downs? They don't work. France, Italy, UK, Spain and dozens of other countries which went through lengthy lockdowns and mask mandates and now experiencing
a massive rise in cases. The idea of lockdowns isn't to get "on top" of coronavirus, it's to buy enough time to prepare hospitals with masks and ventilators. Trump did that.

US police departments defunded so far;
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcev ... 653fe229e3

No, politicians across the board did not encourage prospectors to wear masks and socially distance, and even if they did they were not adhered to as there are thousands of images on google of BLM protesters not socially distancing or wearing masks. Those same people bashing Trump were silent on BLM protests.
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

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rayden83 wrote: November 10, 2020, 4:55 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 12:03 am The US economy bounced back after a record 31% drop the quarter before. The real rate of unemployment is closer to 12%.

Yep, I think we can agree that plenty of countries are completely dropping the ball with COVID. The USA are the top of that list. The platform was set in summer when they should have done more to get on top of it.

Who in the Democratic party called for the police to be defunded? From what I can gather, politicians across the board were encouraging BLM protesters to wear masks and socially distance as much as possible.
Current official US unemployment rate is 6.9%.

Top of the list? USA is behind Spain, Brazil and Belgium in terms of the deaths per capita. US is 10th in the world, UK is 12th and Italy is 14th.

Done what to get on top of it? Masks? Shut downs? They don't work. France, Italy, UK, Spain and dozens of other countries which went through lengthy lockdowns and mask mandates and now experiencing
a massive rise in cases. The idea of lockdowns isn't to get "on top" of coronavirus, it's to buy enough time to prepare hospitals with masks and ventilators. Trump did that.

US police departments defunded so far;
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcev ... 653fe229e3

No, politicians across the board did not encourage prospectors to wear masks and socially distance, and even if they did they were not adhered to as there are thousands of images on google of BLM protesters not socially distancing or wearing masks. Those same people bashing Trump were silent on BLM protests.
The real rate of unemployment is significantly higher than the official rate, taking into account people who have given up finding work.

Even the article you provided talks about Trump falsely accusing Biden of supporting the defunding of police. I'm not sure what your point is.

Good to hear lockdowns and wearing masks doesn't work. The magic COVID cure fairy must have visited Victoria recently.

I'm done with this discussion. It's getting boring.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by BJ »

Some US States are having over 30% of test cases coming back positive. Some posters are just pulling out random figures to try and suit their arguments.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by Seiffert82 »

It's all fake news!!
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by rayden83 »

Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 4:43 pm
BJ wrote: November 10, 2020, 3:24 pm I can’t understand how anyone can claim that Covid kills the same percentage of people as does the annual flu.

Do they really think ‘people with or potentially with’ the flu are getting tested for the flu to the same level as Covid testing? Imagine how many people each year have caught the flu each year without formally knowing it or being actually tested?

How many people are tested for the flu each year outside those who attend hospital with the flu? The ‘Divisor’ for the flu calculation is a magnitude of times smaller than the divisor for Covid.
Even based on existing data it appears that the COVID mortality rate is around 3-4%, which is higher than early projections of 1-2% (which I originally expected it to be).

In comparison, flu kills around 0.1% of known cases - as you say though, the number of flu cases each year would be rubbery at best.

rayden quoted Singapore as the comparison country, as they have a COVID mortality rate of about 0.5%, but they don't include non-pneumonia type deaths in their count, such as those who died of COVID related blood or heart issues. Just about every other country is reporting a 3-4% mortality rate, so there is definitely something different about those Singapore figures.
Comparing confirmed cases with confirmed deaths is crude as most people who catch covid do not get tested. In fact in the early days of the epidemic when countries were unprepared, most people did not get tested unless their symptoms were so bad that they had admit to hospital, which obviously skews the figures. The better way to measure is test for antibodies and compare with the official death rate. For example Peru which has a population of about 30 million ,and based on testing they estimate around 35% of the population has antibodies, which translates to a death rate of about 0.5%. When you factor in herd immunity kicking in at around 70% this reduces the death rate to about 0.2%.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/corona ... antibodies

"The implied fatality rate of 0.5 percent was calculated by dividing the official statewide death count to date of about 15,500 by the estimated number of infected - 14 percent of New York’s 19 million residents, or 2.7 million people."
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by Seiffert82 »

rayden83 wrote: November 10, 2020, 5:13 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 4:43 pm
BJ wrote: November 10, 2020, 3:24 pm I can’t understand how anyone can claim that Covid kills the same percentage of people as does the annual flu.

Do they really think ‘people with or potentially with’ the flu are getting tested for the flu to the same level as Covid testing? Imagine how many people each year have caught the flu each year without formally knowing it or being actually tested?

How many people are tested for the flu each year outside those who attend hospital with the flu? The ‘Divisor’ for the flu calculation is a magnitude of times smaller than the divisor for Covid.
Even based on existing data it appears that the COVID mortality rate is around 3-4%, which is higher than early projections of 1-2% (which I originally expected it to be).

In comparison, flu kills around 0.1% of known cases - as you say though, the number of flu cases each year would be rubbery at best.

rayden quoted Singapore as the comparison country, as they have a COVID mortality rate of about 0.5%, but they don't include non-pneumonia type deaths in their count, such as those who died of COVID related blood or heart issues. Just about every other country is reporting a 3-4% mortality rate, so there is definitely something different about those Singapore figures.
Comparing confirmed cases with confirmed deaths is crude as most people who catch covid do not get tested. In fact in the early days of the epidemic when countries were unprepared, most people did not get tested unless their symptoms were so bad that they had admit to hospital, which obviously skews the figures. The better way to measure is test for antibodies and compare with the official death rate. For example Peru which has a population of about 30 million ,and based on testing they estimate around 35% of the population has antibodies, which translates to a death rate of about 0.5%. When you factor in herd immunity kicking in at around 70% this reduces the death rate to about 0.2%.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/corona ... antibodies

"The implied fatality rate of 0.5 percent was calculated by dividing the official statewide death count to date of about 15,500 by the estimated number of infected - 14 percent of New York’s 19 million residents, or 2.7 million people."
I'm sorry, but that's fake news.
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gangrenous
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The Politics Thread 2020

Post by gangrenous »

Manbush wrote:Nice to see Trump going out with one last grift, sending out mass emails asking for donations to help pay for the recounts while the fine print says 50-60% of the proceeds will go to paying off campaign debts. Credit where it’s due though if he’s going to pay off debts, first time for everything.
Pardon the pun.

Someone said earlier this was fake news?

On the COVID death rate. It’s going to depend what period of the pandemic you’re looking at, and whether medical services are overwhelmed or not.
rayden83
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

Post by rayden83 »

Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 4:58 pm The real rate of unemployment is significantly higher than the official rate, taking into account people who have given up finding work.
That's always been the case. :lol:
Even the article you provided talks about Trump falsely accusing Biden of supporting the defunding of police. I'm not sure what your point is.
You said you were not aware of Democrats supporting defunding the police, and I provided you a list of 13 cities , all Democrat run, which have defunded their police forces. You clearly just don't want to accept the evidence even when it's slapping you in the face.
Good to hear lockdowns and wearing masks doesn't work. The magic COVID cure fairy must have visited Victoria recently.
Try comparing 800 cases per day, mostly in nursing homes, with tens of thousands raging through the community. Once again the idea of lockdowns isn't to "defeat the virus", it's to supply hospitals with masks and ventilators and to flatten the curve so as not to overwhelm hospitals.

I'm done with this discussion. It's getting boring.

You just don't know about anything to have an informed understanding. This is what happens when you just watch news and believe what you hear without question.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by rayden83 »

Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 5:18 pm
rayden83 wrote: November 10, 2020, 5:13 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 4:43 pm
BJ wrote: November 10, 2020, 3:24 pm I can’t understand how anyone can claim that Covid kills the same percentage of people as does the annual flu.

Do they really think ‘people with or potentially with’ the flu are getting tested for the flu to the same level as Covid testing? Imagine how many people each year have caught the flu each year without formally knowing it or being actually tested?

How many people are tested for the flu each year outside those who attend hospital with the flu? The ‘Divisor’ for the flu calculation is a magnitude of times smaller than the divisor for Covid.
Even based on existing data it appears that the COVID mortality rate is around 3-4%, which is higher than early projections of 1-2% (which I originally expected it to be).

In comparison, flu kills around 0.1% of known cases - as you say though, the number of flu cases each year would be rubbery at best.

rayden quoted Singapore as the comparison country, as they have a COVID mortality rate of about 0.5%, but they don't include non-pneumonia type deaths in their count, such as those who died of COVID related blood or heart issues. Just about every other country is reporting a 3-4% mortality rate, so there is definitely something different about those Singapore figures.
Comparing confirmed cases with confirmed deaths is crude as most people who catch covid do not get tested. In fact in the early days of the epidemic when countries were unprepared, most people did not get tested unless their symptoms were so bad that they had admit to hospital, which obviously skews the figures. The better way to measure is test for antibodies and compare with the official death rate. For example Peru which has a population of about 30 million ,and based on testing they estimate around 35% of the population has antibodies, which translates to a death rate of about 0.5%. When you factor in herd immunity kicking in at around 70% this reduces the death rate to about 0.2%.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/corona ... antibodies

"The implied fatality rate of 0.5 percent was calculated by dividing the official statewide death count to date of about 15,500 by the estimated number of infected - 14 percent of New York’s 19 million residents, or 2.7 million people."
I'm sorry, but that's fake news.
You're fake news. :lol:
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gangrenous
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by gangrenous »

Have you been to the Climate Change thread rayden?

You and RedRaider would get along swimmingly
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

Post by Seiffert82 »

The first city listed in that article was Austin, Texas, with Republican governor. A variety of jurisdictions across the country have reallocated some police funding. I'm not sure what point you're making.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by rayden83 »

gangrenous wrote: November 10, 2020, 5:58 pm Have you been to the Climate Change thread rayden?

You and RedRaider would get along swimmingly
I'm heading over there straight now. :D
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

Post by rayden83 »

:nooo
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Re: The Politics Threeeasy

Post by Seiffert82 »

Baltimore. Norman, Oklahoma.

Democrats defunding police. Fake news.

Tell us again how lockdowns achieve nothing and why Victoria peaked at a few hundred cases a day compared to thousands elsewhere.

It must be the special Australian COVID strain. Fake news.

Begs the question as to why the UK and countries across Europe are entering into lockdowns again, given they achieve nothing.
Last edited by Seiffert82 on November 10, 2020, 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gangrenous
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by gangrenous »

rayden83 wrote:
gangrenous wrote: November 10, 2020, 5:58 pm Have you been to the Climate Change thread rayden?

You and RedRaider would get along swimmingly
I'm heading over there straight now. :D
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by rayden83 »

I didn't say lockdowns don't work, I said they aren't designed to eliminate the virus. The WHO does not advocate, and has never advocated lockdowns as a means of eliminating the virus.

They worked in Australia and NZ because we had minimal community transmission to be begin. Do you think if VIC had 8,000 cases per day it'd have opened up yet?

If Biden was to pursue a lock down strategy, it may take 6 months to get on top of the current community spread, and let's say theoretically they get the community transmission to zero, there is always the significant possibility that cases will pick up again once they reopen, as has happened in pretty much every country bar NZ and AU. Is it worth shutting down entire economies for 3, 6 or 12 months or long to save 0.3% of the population?

Even if we look at Australia, Covid is predicted to add $800 billion to our net debt, if we assume 125,000 deaths (overestimate) , that equates to around $6.4 million per life saved, most of those lives save aged over 70. That's nothing to sneeze at.
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gangrenous
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The Politics Thread 2020

Post by gangrenous »

Think you could work on being careful with your phrasing rayden.

rayden83 wrote:I didn't say lockdowns don't work, I said they aren't designed to eliminate the virus. The WHO does not advocate, and has never advocated lockdowns as a means of eliminating the virus.

They worked in Australia and NZ because we had minimal community transmission to be begin. Do you think if VIC had 8,000 cases per day it'd have opened up yet?
So what you’re actually saying is not that lockdowns aren’t a means of eliminating the virus (which they are). But they’re not a practical approach once the virus reaches a certain prevalence in the community (which your pal D Trump might have been able to prevent...).
rayden83 wrote:Even if we look at Australia, Covid is predicted to add $800 billion to our net debt, if we assume 125,000 deaths (overestimate) , that equates to around $6.4 million per life saved, most of those lives save aged over 70. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Overly simplistic analysis. What would the cost of COVID have been had this amount of infection and deaths hit Australia? It sure wouldn’t have been 0 debt added. Our economy has not been hit as hard as other countries who pursued more open economies who also suffered the deaths as well. So you can certainly mount a reasonable argument that we saved both lives and money.
Last edited by gangrenous on November 10, 2020, 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by gergreg »

rayden83 wrote:I didn't say lockdowns don't work, I said they aren't designed to eliminate the virus. The WHO does not advocate, and has never advocated lockdowns as a means of eliminating the virus.

They worked in Australia and NZ because we had minimal community transmission to be begin. Do you think if VIC had 8,000 cases per day it'd have opened up yet?

If Biden was to pursue a lock down strategy, it may take 6 months to get on top of the current community spread, and let's say theoretically they get the community transmission to zero, there is always the significant possibility that cases will pick up again once they reopen, as has happened in pretty much every country bar NZ and AU. Is it worth shutting down entire economies for 3, 6 or 12 months or long to save 0.3% of the population?

Even if we look at Australia, Covid is predicted to add $800 billion to our net debt, if we assume 125,000 deaths (overestimate) , that equates to around $6.4 million per life saved, most of those lives save aged over 70. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Ok, so you pushing your own parents, grand parents or elderly relatives or friends to walk the plank to save some money?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by Dr Zaius »

Healthcare workers are only out ranked by age care workers as the single biggest cohort effected by Covid when the virus runs rampant. I'm willing to put myself in potential harms way for the sake of my community, but I take offence to the suggestion that my health and the health of my colleagues is expendable for the sake of the economy.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2020

Post by BJ »

Seiffert82 wrote:
rayden83 wrote: November 10, 2020, 5:13 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: November 10, 2020, 4:43 pm
BJ wrote: November 10, 2020, 3:24 pm I can’t understand how anyone can claim that Covid kills the same percentage of people as does the annual flu.

Do they really think ‘people with or potentially with’ the flu are getting tested for the flu to the same level as Covid testing? Imagine how many people each year have caught the flu each year without formally knowing it or being actually tested?

How many people are tested for the flu each year outside those who attend hospital with the flu? The ‘Divisor’ for the flu calculation is a magnitude of times smaller than the divisor for Covid.
Even based on existing data it appears that the COVID mortality rate is around 3-4%, which is higher than early projections of 1-2% (which I originally expected it to be).

In comparison, flu kills around 0.1% of known cases - as you say though, the number of flu cases each year would be rubbery at best.

rayden quoted Singapore as the comparison country, as they have a COVID mortality rate of about 0.5%, but they don't include non-pneumonia type deaths in their count, such as those who died of COVID related blood or heart issues. Just about every other country is reporting a 3-4% mortality rate, so there is definitely something different about those Singapore figures.
Comparing confirmed cases with confirmed deaths is crude as most people who catch covid do not get tested. In fact in the early days of the epidemic when countries were unprepared, most people did not get tested unless their symptoms were so bad that they had admit to hospital, which obviously skews the figures. The better way to measure is test for antibodies and compare with the official death rate. For example Peru which has a population of about 30 million ,and based on testing they estimate around 35% of the population has antibodies, which translates to a death rate of about 0.5%. When you factor in herd immunity kicking in at around 70% this reduces the death rate to about 0.2%.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/corona ... antibodies

"The implied fatality rate of 0.5 percent was calculated by dividing the official statewide death count to date of about 15,500 by the estimated number of infected - 14 percent of New York’s 19 million residents, or 2.7 million people."
I'm sorry, but that's fake news.
Why is a lack of comparative data between flu cases and Covid fake news?
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