The Politics Thread 2018

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T_R
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R »

The Nickman wrote: December 14, 2018, 9:40 am
papabear wrote: December 14, 2018, 6:17 am It’s makes a mockery of democracy to have another vote on brexit.

Whether or not they go with this deal or not, if you just keep voting until the minority wear down the majority it makes a sad precedent.

Imagine if aus did the same thing on Ssm.

The issue was raised and done.

If it doesn’t work for them and they want to join back in after a couple of years I am sure the eu will welcome them with open arms.
It's the same with the republic, papa. Australia will keep having referendums until we eventually become a republic.

From there, we will never have one to see if we should go back to being a monarchy.
Yeah, but not every year, which I think was Papa's point.

I don't think a referendum once per generation would have our forebears rolling in their graves.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg »

The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 9:59 am Not a great example Nickman. IMO the only reason the Republic referendum failed last time was the wording of it. ..... "Elected by the parliament/government"..... was a clear tactic by Howard for the vote not to get up.

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I think it's a perfect example. Because we will in the future have another referendum, and then another, and then another, until eventually we become a republic. And then there'll never be another referendum on the topic.

Not sure why you decided to debate why the last one failed, that's completely irrelevant to my point.
Fair call. I'm just itching for an argument to liven up my Friday and if I have to shift the goalposts to a different postcode to achieve it who are you to argue with me? Huh? You think you can quietly immerse yourself back in here after leaving us high and dry for so long.... ?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 10:25 am
The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 9:59 am Not a great example Nickman. IMO the only reason the Republic referendum failed last time was the wording of it. ..... "Elected by the parliament/government"..... was a clear tactic by Howard for the vote not to get up.

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I think it's a perfect example. Because we will in the future have another referendum, and then another, and then another, until eventually we become a republic. And then there'll never be another referendum on the topic.

Not sure why you decided to debate why the last one failed, that's completely irrelevant to my point.
Fair call. I'm just itching for an argument to liven up my Friday and if I have to shift the goalposts to a different postcode to achieve it who are you to argue with me? Huh? You think you can quietly immerse yourself back in here after leaving us high and dry for so long.... ?

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So it's an argument you're after, hey?? Where the **** is Nicko when you need him??
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg »

The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 10:25 am
The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 9:59 am Not a great example Nickman. IMO the only reason the Republic referendum failed last time was the wording of it. ..... "Elected by the parliament/government"..... was a clear tactic by Howard for the vote not to get up.

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I think it's a perfect example. Because we will in the future have another referendum, and then another, and then another, until eventually we become a republic. And then there'll never be another referendum on the topic.

Not sure why you decided to debate why the last one failed, that's completely irrelevant to my point.
Fair call. I'm just itching for an argument to liven up my Friday and if I have to shift the goalposts to a different postcode to achieve it who are you to argue with me? Huh? You think you can quietly immerse yourself back in here after leaving us high and dry for so long.... ?

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So it's an argument you're after, hey?? Where the **** is Nicko when you need him??
C'mon mate it's wet enough outside (Canberra) without you bringing it in here.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Well, if you want a pointless argument, why settle for anyone less than the best??
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Botman »

The Nickman wrote: December 14, 2018, 10:53 am
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 10:25 am
The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 9:59 am Not a great example Nickman. IMO the only reason the Republic referendum failed last time was the wording of it. ..... "Elected by the parliament/government"..... was a clear tactic by Howard for the vote not to get up.

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I think it's a perfect example. Because we will in the future have another referendum, and then another, and then another, until eventually we become a republic. And then there'll never be another referendum on the topic.

Not sure why you decided to debate why the last one failed, that's completely irrelevant to my point.
Fair call. I'm just itching for an argument to liven up my Friday and if I have to shift the goalposts to a different postcode to achieve it who are you to argue with me? Huh? You think you can quietly immerse yourself back in here after leaving us high and dry for so long.... ?

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So it's an argument you're after, hey?? Where the **** is Nicko when you need him??
alright, lets **** dance.
ill let you call your side.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Botman »

Re: Brexit, i completely agree with papa
I wouldnt have voted for brexit and i dont really understand how this vote won (actually, that's not true, i know exactly why and how Brexit won the vote) but it was voted on, so whether you like the result or not, i think you have to respect the vote.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

There you go Gerg... argue with that ^
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg »

Pigman wrote:
The Nickman wrote: December 14, 2018, 10:53 am
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 10:25 am
The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote: December 14, 2018, 9:59 am Not a great example Nickman. IMO the only reason the Republic referendum failed last time was the wording of it. ..... "Elected by the parliament/government"..... was a clear tactic by Howard for the vote not to get up.

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I think it's a perfect example. Because we will in the future have another referendum, and then another, and then another, until eventually we become a republic. And then there'll never be another referendum on the topic.

Not sure why you decided to debate why the last one failed, that's completely irrelevant to my point.
Fair call. I'm just itching for an argument to liven up my Friday and if I have to shift the goalposts to a different postcode to achieve it who are you to argue with me? Huh? You think you can quietly immerse yourself back in here after leaving us high and dry for so long.... ?

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So it's an argument you're after, hey?? Where the **** is Nicko when you need him??
alright, lets **** dance.
ill let you call your side.
I think both sides of the argument have merit. Over...

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Well it sound like you're no longer interested in an argument then!
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg »

I started out all full of bluster but we're a little close to beer o'clock to give a ****.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Green eyed Mick »

If nothing else it makes economic sense to hold another referendum, even if it risks upsetting the idiots who still think brexit is a good idea.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Botman »

Green eyed Mick wrote: December 14, 2018, 4:44 pm If nothing else it makes economic sense to hold another referendum, even if it risks upsetting the idiots who still think brexit is a good idea.
they held one already, the population voted.
Imagine if the Liberals decided they didnt like the results of the SSM outcome and just stalled and ran it back until they got a result

You may think those who voted for brexit are idiots, and i might even agree with you. But that's the **** point of a democracy, every idiot gets a vote and their idiot vote is worth the same as your idiot vote.

If you just keep stalling and going back to the polls until you get the result you want, that's not a democracy.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Botman »

I mean, i know it's a far fetched scenario, but when Scott Morrison loses the next election, what if he just refuses to leave and stages a political coup, because one side of politics felt it made sense economically, to give Australia a chance to avoid an ALP government?

It's a slippery slope. The populace was given a vote, they voted. The results are what they are. You live with it and make the best of it. The job of politicians is to act according to the wishes of the populace who elect them. The populace have spoken, i dont have to like the result but if you believe in democracy, you cant honestly hand on heart believe its right to just re-vote until it falls your way.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

Yeah I’m with Pig. That’s what democracy is all about. Whatever comes of this is on them. It’s what they voted for.
Only people I have sympathy for is Ireland.


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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gangrenous »

Agree with pigman.

This is why democracy sucks Bring on benevolent dictator!
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The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »



Its true. Democracy is what allowed Casey Donovan to win Aus Idol
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg »

All hail Boaty McBoatface.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Schifty »

The thing with Brexit is that many of "Winning" side started to abandon ship as soon as the result came through.

You had Nigel Farage on national TV saying he never said money could be spent on the NHS instead when the whole leaver campaign was based on him travelling around thew country on a bus with that as a slogan.

Sort of like that footage when Trump won and was sitting next to Obama with that "Ohhh ***** what have I actually done here" look on his face.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Green eyed Mick »

Pigman wrote: December 14, 2018, 6:52 pm
Green eyed Mick wrote: December 14, 2018, 4:44 pm If nothing else it makes economic sense to hold another referendum, even if it risks upsetting the idiots who still think brexit is a good idea.
they held one already, the population voted.
Imagine if the Liberals decided they didnt like the results of the SSM outcome and just stalled and ran it back until they got a result

You may think those who voted for brexit are idiots, and i might even agree with you. But that's the **** point of a democracy, every idiot gets a vote and their idiot vote is worth the same as your idiot vote.

If you just keep stalling and going back to the polls until you get the result you want, that's not a democracy.
If the Liberals stalled and public sentiment remained in favour of marriage equality, the Liberals would have been voted out and/or a Liberal would have crossed the floor and marriage equality would have been legislated.

As for whether another referendum is democratic or not. If another referendum is allowed under their system of democracy and if the necessary elected representatives vote for another referendum, it is undeniably democratic.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Manbush »

Yeah it’s a weird one and not quite as easy as a simple case of leave won so have to honor it, the leave side aren’t happy with the deal so should they be able to vote again now that they actually know what the deal will be rather than just the lies they were originally told.

The SSM we knew exactly what we’d be getting, the republic one we voted for a specific type and even if we voted simply yes or no for a republic Australia would have chosen the type, with Brexit the ball was in the EUs court.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear »

Manbush wrote: December 16, 2018, 5:23 am Yeah it’s a weird one and not quite as easy as a simple case of leave won so have to honor it, the leave side aren’t happy with the deal so should they be able to vote again now that they actually know what the deal will be rather than just the lies they were originally told.

The SSM we knew exactly what we’d be getting, the republic one we voted for a specific type and even if we voted simply yes or no for a republic Australia would have chosen the type, with Brexit the ball was in the EUs court.
Did we know exactly what we were getting even now spin off legislation is being talked about and that is the nature of these things.

IMO I cant remember the last time you advocated your above position on something where you agreed with the original vote. It just comes across as dishonest to me, but you argue what you are going to argue.

For me, whatever UK end up with, if they want to be in the EU they first have to leave as that is what they told the world they want to do. Then if they want back in after another vote they can see if the EU wants them and see how they go.

If they don't like the deal, don't take it. Same as a divorce, if you and your former wife nut out something you don't like, you don't look her in the eyes and say I want to stay together, honestly what kind of world of garbage do you live in.

To change the subject, fairfax reported yesterday that the negative gearing and property tax adjustments were losing popularity even with labor gaining popularity.

Funny that, how this **** legislation isn't so exciting when the one aim it was going for has already been achieved. Thing is, once sydney / melbournes market dies, the lack of confidence will spread to qld and regional nsw/vic in housing. Another odd note, despite prices coming right down in sydney the people who were looking to get in before when it was too expensive are now sitting on the sidelines because they dont want to buy in to a falling market...

People either have balls or they don't.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear »

Green eyed Mick wrote: December 15, 2018, 1:56 pm
Pigman wrote: December 14, 2018, 6:52 pm
Green eyed Mick wrote: December 14, 2018, 4:44 pm If nothing else it makes economic sense to hold another referendum, even if it risks upsetting the idiots who still think brexit is a good idea.
they held one already, the population voted.
Imagine if the Liberals decided they didnt like the results of the SSM outcome and just stalled and ran it back until they got a result

You may think those who voted for brexit are idiots, and i might even agree with you. But that's the **** point of a democracy, every idiot gets a vote and their idiot vote is worth the same as your idiot vote.

If you just keep stalling and going back to the polls until you get the result you want, that's not a democracy.
If the Liberals stalled and public sentiment remained in favour of marriage equality, the Liberals would have been voted out and/or a Liberal would have crossed the floor and marriage equality would have been legislated.

As for whether another referendum is democratic or not. If another referendum is allowed under their system of democracy and if the necessary elected representatives vote for another referendum, it is undeniably democratic.
the liberals are getting voted out anyway and the presumption that all of labor would have voted with them is a bit presumptious as it wasnt so long ago that labor held power and they couldnt even get Penny Wong to support SSM.

The fact is the MT and the liberals ushered in SSM, oddly enough I think you will it was the GOP who ushered in the end of slavery in america as well.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

It was brought up on Mad as Hell the other day how the Libs have put through SSM Marriage, because the public wanted it but they didn’t. Now they’re getting the kids off Nauru because the independents want, but they don’t.

This has been the most progressive government in recent memory, despite not wanting to be


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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Pigman wrote: December 14, 2018, 6:59 pm I mean, i know it's a far fetched scenario, but when Scott Morrison loses the next election, what if he just refuses to leave and stages a political coup, because one side of politics felt it made sense economically, to give Australia a chance to avoid an ALP government?

It's a slippery slope. The populace was given a vote, they voted. The results are what they are. You live with it and make the best of it. The job of politicians is to act according to the wishes of the populace who elect them. The populace have spoken, i dont have to like the result but if you believe in democracy, you cant honestly hand on heart believe its right to just re-vote until it falls your way.
Hahaha that IS a far fetched scenario, all right, Pig!!

There's no **** WAY ScoMo loses to Shorten.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by -TW- »

The myefo figures pointing towards a surplus next fy will give the libs some hope
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

-TW- wrote: December 17, 2018, 4:16 pm The myefo figures pointing towards a surplus next fy will give the libs some hope
That would be **** right. Just in time to change governments and completely **** it all up again.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Sossman »

Turnbull and the 'wets' in the Libs did very well to get SSM done and Turnbull can be proud. He spent a lot of capital inside his own party to achieve it.

However, never forget that parts of the LNP fought tooth and nail against this and tried to sabotage the process.

In hindsight.. having Turnbull manage this is probably more effective than Labor because the press would have been WAY more hostile if ALP tried to pass it.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Sossman wrote: December 17, 2018, 4:43 pm Turnbull and the 'wets' in the Libs did very well to get SSM done and Turnbull can be proud. He spent a lot of capital inside his own party to achieve it.

However, never forget that parts of the LNP fought tooth and nail against this and tried to sabotage the process.

In hindsight.. having Turnbull manage this is probably more effective than Labor because the press would have been WAY more hostile if ALP tried to pass it.

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The ALP had a chance to pass it when they were in Government and voted against it, Penny Wong included. Stop rewriting history, Soddsy.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by Sossman »

The Nickman wrote:
Sossman wrote: December 17, 2018, 4:43 pm Turnbull and the 'wets' in the Libs did very well to get SSM done and Turnbull can be proud. He spent a lot of capital inside his own party to achieve it.

However, never forget that parts of the LNP fought tooth and nail against this and tried to sabotage the process.

In hindsight.. having Turnbull manage this is probably more effective than Labor because the press would have been WAY more hostile if ALP tried to pass it.

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The ALP had a chance to pass it when they were in Government and voted against it, Penny Wong included. Stop rewriting history, Soddsy.
They were scared of the press (and the shoppies but thats another story).

As I said. Full credit to Turnbull. A great achievement.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gangrenous »

The Nickman wrote:
Sossman wrote: December 17, 2018, 4:43 pm Turnbull and the 'wets' in the Libs did very well to get SSM done and Turnbull can be proud. He spent a lot of capital inside his own party to achieve it.

However, never forget that parts of the LNP fought tooth and nail against this and tried to sabotage the process.

In hindsight.. having Turnbull manage this is probably more effective than Labor because the press would have been WAY more hostile if ALP tried to pass it.

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The ALP had a chance to pass it when they were in Government and voted against it, Penny Wong included. Stop rewriting history, Soddsy.
They also went to the last election with it as a policy. Let’s be real here.
The Nickman
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Wow, I hope you never give me a compliment.
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The Nickman
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Nickman »

Not you, gangy. I'd LOVE a compliment from you
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T_R
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R »

The Nickman wrote:Wow, I hope you never give me a compliment.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R »

gangrenous wrote:
The Nickman wrote:
Sossman wrote: December 17, 2018, 4:43 pm Turnbull and the 'wets' in the Libs did very well to get SSM done and Turnbull can be proud. He spent a lot of capital inside his own party to achieve it.

However, never forget that parts of the LNP fought tooth and nail against this and tried to sabotage the process.

In hindsight.. having Turnbull manage this is probably more effective than Labor because the press would have been WAY more hostile if ALP tried to pass it.

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The ALP had a chance to pass it when they were in Government and voted against it, Penny Wong included. Stop rewriting history, Soddsy.
They also went to the last election with it as a policy. Let’s be real here.
'Real' is that Labor had the chance to pass the legislation and bottled it because they were afraid the SDA would stop writing them cheques, and the LNP passed it.
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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