The Politics Thread 2013

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Toviii » December 12, 2013, 7:52 pm

Manbush wrote:
Toviii wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:The labor/greens had 7 years to get it done, a bit disingenuous to expect a committed catholic to do it now.

A shame but won't happen this term.
Labor's position change on gay marriage only really happened this year (if it can be called that).
They didn't legalise it though when they had the chance this year, it was all talk to try and win an unwinnable election.
Exactly.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty » December 13, 2013, 5:32 am

So a US drone just killed 15 people in a convoy that were on their way to a wedding in Yemen.. This **** has to stop..

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 5:33 am

The US military is so ****ing hopeless you'd almost think it was on purpose.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty » December 13, 2013, 5:44 am

They've pretty much just said "ohh we missed the target"

Load of crap.. Who knows what these people sitting back in their chair in the middle of Nevada are thinking..

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty » December 13, 2013, 5:50 am

I just wonder what it will take for this program to be suspended. They clearly don't care about innocent civilians.

Maybe one day they will 'accidentally' bump off a president and then it will really kick off.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Green eyed Mick » December 13, 2013, 7:05 am

Schifty wrote:I just wonder what it will take for this program to be suspended. They clearly don't care about innocent civilians.

Maybe one day they will 'accidentally' bump off a president and then it will really kick off.
They don't and neither do most of the people in the US.

Watch dirty wars if you get a chance. A great documentary on the evolution of the drone program and the war of terror.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 8:44 am

What's the punchline to the documentary, GeM?? I don't have time to watch a whole documentary that may end up blowing my mind.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Green eyed Mick » December 13, 2013, 10:20 am

Pretty straight forward. Drone strikes, targetted assasinations and illegal troop presence is expanding the war of terror rather than bringing it to a close. I think the subtle hint is the US knows that they are creating more problems than they are solving yet are ramping up this aspect of the war regardless.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 10:22 am

But isn't it costing them trillions in the process??
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Nick » December 13, 2013, 10:46 am

I was always under the impression (perhaps wrongly, its just one of those things ive heard many people say) that wars make money
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 10:48 am

Yeah, I've heard that too, Nicko. I really don't understand how it all works.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by T_R » December 13, 2013, 11:46 am

The idea is that war production acts as a stimulus on an otherwise stagnant economy; obviously, there can be no benefit of increasing production to emergency levels in an economy that is already acting at or near capacity.

There's some limited truth to this, but of course war is simply acting as another form of government intervention to the economy. There is an argument that the crisis nature of war ensures a more efficient allocation of the stimulus resources (instead of, say, school halls or insulation). Frankly, that's never made a huge amount of sense to me.

As wars are entirely government funded, they must ultimate be paid for through either increased taxes, expenditure cuts elsewhere or higher levels of debt. These are arguably of any benefit to the economy in the long run.

You can look for ancillary value, I suppose - you bomb the crap out of Iraq, the populace welcome you with open arms and as a result you break the OPEC monopoly and flood the western world with cheap oil, for example. Doesn't seem to be often the case.

Of course, it's great if you can get someone else to have a war for you - think of Japan being used as a base of production for the US in the 1950's while they were slapping Chinese around in Korea. That 5 year period of hyper-stimulus was basically the making of the country in the modern era.

So, I guess wars can have an immediate shock stimulus value to a faltering economy (WWII dragging the world out of the great depression), can carry some side benefits, are simply awesome if someone else is doing the fighting and the spending, but in most circumstances it's pretty hard to build the case for them proving value.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 12:04 pm

So why would the US be dragging the war on terror out??
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by T_R » December 13, 2013, 12:27 pm

Don't confuse the actual war - Iraq, with police action in Afghanistan, the subsequent occupation of Iraq and the ahbit they now have of shoving bags over people's heads and mailing them off to Egypt to be beaten around for a bit.

'War on terror' is a made up name, even a misnomer, I think.

As for why, I imagine that someone over there feels that it makes sense. To be fair, swarthy chaps DO keep flying planes into buildings, and I can see how that would grow annoying.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 12:38 pm

I guess the truth is that none of us really know the truth. I used to be a real conspiracy theory nut (coincidentally when I smoked pot heavily) but now I pretty much lean completely in the other direction. The truth is more than likely somewhere in the middle, like all things.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Shadow Boxer » December 13, 2013, 12:44 pm

Agreed truth is a personal thing, the brain is designed to build a narrative around everything it sees. When you add confirmation bias to that narrative there is no universal truth. This why seemingly intelligent people believe in things like religion or deny the holocaust.

Even colour is an artificial construct created in the three colour receptors (red, green, blue) that are processed by the brain. Interestingly some birds have five colour receptors and we have no idea what they see.

Sorry I digress again.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush » December 13, 2013, 2:14 pm

"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 2:33 pm

Shadow Boxer wrote:Agreed truth is a personal thing, the brain is designed to build a narrative around everything it sees. When you add confirmation bias to that narrative there is no universal truth. This why seemingly intelligent people believe in things like religion or deny the holocaust.

Even colour is an artificial construct created in the three colour receptors (red, green, blue) that are processed by the brain. Interestingly some birds have five colour receptors and we have no idea what they see.

Sorry I digress again.
Good post.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Shadow Boxer » December 13, 2013, 2:57 pm

The Nickman wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Agreed truth is a personal thing, the brain is designed to build a narrative around everything it sees. When you add confirmation bias to that narrative there is no universal truth. This why seemingly intelligent people believe in things like religion or deny the holocaust.

Even colour is an artificial construct created in the three colour receptors (red, green, blue) that are processed by the brain. Interestingly some birds have five colour receptors and we have no idea what they see.

Sorry I digress again.
Good post.
Thanks, apparently it is why we dream, the brain can't stop itself building stories and putting things in perceived context.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 3:09 pm

Shadow Boxer wrote:
The Nickman wrote:
Shadow Boxer wrote:Agreed truth is a personal thing, the brain is designed to build a narrative around everything it sees. When you add confirmation bias to that narrative there is no universal truth. This why seemingly intelligent people believe in things like religion or deny the holocaust.

Even colour is an artificial construct created in the three colour receptors (red, green, blue) that are processed by the brain. Interestingly some birds have five colour receptors and we have no idea what they see.

Sorry I digress again.
Good post.
Thanks, apparently it is why we dream, the brain can't stop itself building stories and putting things in perceived context.
Wow, really?? I didn't know that.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Stuat » December 13, 2013, 3:26 pm

We are relativists...

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 13, 2013, 3:42 pm

****, Stuat. The one post you make that's less than 5000 words and I don't understand one-third of the words!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Stuat » December 13, 2013, 4:17 pm


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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Albi » December 13, 2013, 10:17 pm

I'd say more post modernists.

Also, unlike many of my lefty brethren, I can't stomach moral/cultural relativism
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Rickman » December 14, 2013, 2:16 am

So basically... Perception is reality??
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Stuat » December 14, 2013, 9:02 am

Postmodernism is kind a sorta relativism isn't it Albi? They are just agnostic to the idea that there are any truths to be found in the first place...

Pretty much Nickman, there is no universal truth, there are lots and lots of truths etc etc

Personally. I'm more of a realist (in the philo sense).

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Shadow Boxer » December 14, 2013, 11:50 am

I am a notorious dilettante but like everything in life it's about evolution. The brain has evolved to build a narrative to everything. This is evolutionary very useful for hunting, seeking shelter, multiplying etc.

So if two people look at Anthony Milford it is a truth that Anthony exists, even though broken down to his atomic level he has no colour or form.

That said the narrative Broncos4life sees surrounding Milford is different to ours. It's not wrong in his eyes as his brain is using confirmation bias to expand and reinforce the narrative he has created. It is a truth in his eyes in the same way David Irving denying the holocaust or a bible basher claiming the world is 6000 years old is a provable truth in their eyes. It's perception thing based on a survival instinct.

The bird scenario is the cool one, we have three colour receptors from which the brain creates the millions of colours we can see.

The birds have 5, we don't know what they see but it is possible they can see up into the uv spectrum and as such may be able to not only see the wind, but the temperature variations in the wind streams.

Evolutionary very useful for a bird and kind of awesome.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by gangrenous » December 14, 2013, 2:08 pm

Put me down as a realist too Stuat.

Shadow Boxer wrote: So if two people look at Anthony Milford it is a truth that Anthony exists, even though broken down to his atomic level he has no colour or form.
Saying he has no form is taking things a bit far isn't it?
Shadow Boxer wrote: That said the narrative Broncos4life sees surrounding Milford is different to ours. It's not wrong in his eyes as his brain is using confirmation bias to expand and reinforce the narrative he has created. It is a truth in his eyes in the same way David Irving denying the holocaust or a bible basher claiming the world is 6000 years old is a provable truth in their eyes. It's perception thing based on a survival instinct.
Doesn't stop people being absolutely wrong though...

Shadow Boxer wrote: The birds have 5, we don't know what they see but it is possible they can see up into the uv spectrum and as such may be able to not only see the wind, but the temperature variations in the wind streams.

Evolutionary very useful for a bird and kind of awesome.
How does seeing UV let them see wind or temperature variations in wind streams? Is there a reference for that?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Shadow Boxer » December 14, 2013, 2:20 pm

gangrenous wrote:Put me down as a realist too Stuat.

What I'm saying is a realist isn't it ?
Shadow Boxer wrote: So if two people look at Anthony Milford it is a truth that Anthony exists, even though broken down to his atomic level he has no colour or form.
Saying he has no form is taking things a bit far isn't it?

Yes it is, sorry
Shadow Boxer wrote: That said the narrative Broncos4life sees surrounding Milford is different to ours. It's not wrong in his eyes as his brain is using confirmation bias to expand and reinforce the narrative he has created. It is a truth in his eyes in the same way David Irving denying the holocaust or a bible basher claiming the world is 6000 years old is a provable truth in their eyes. It's perception thing based on a survival instinct.
Doesn't stop people being absolutely wrong though...

Agreed, ii was more exploring why seemingly intelligent people can be so monumentally wrong but be convinced they are right.
Shadow Boxer wrote: The birds have 5, we don't know what they see but it is possible they can see up into the uv spectrum and as such may be able to not only see the wind, but the temperature variations in the wind streams.

Evolutionary very useful for a bird and kind of awesome.
How does seeing UV let them see wind or temperature variations in wind streams? Is there a reference for that?
Nobody knows what they see, the uv thing is just a theory.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Green eyed Mick » December 14, 2013, 2:21 pm

Maybe they see dead people?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by gangrenous » December 14, 2013, 2:24 pm

Nobody knows how their brain models what they see (e.g. colours), but it'd be relatively easy to test what wavelength range they can see.

The question for reference is because I'm curious. If that's an idea then I'm interested to hear the proposed mechanism.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Shadow Boxer » December 14, 2013, 2:34 pm

Haha, told you I was a dilletente.

There's plenty out there if you want to get scientific

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_vision

I like the idea of them seeing the wind and catching it like a surfer. ;)
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius » December 14, 2013, 5:02 pm

Green eyed Mick wrote:Maybe they see dead people?
Well they are everywhere.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Green eyed Mick » December 15, 2013, 6:55 am


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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius » December 15, 2013, 7:02 am

Albi wrote:His popularity is plummeting faster than Rudd's, and we all know what happened there
God, I'd love for him to fall to the depths of despair and be replaced by Turnbull. Best. Thing. Ever. Not going to happen though.
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