The Politics Thread 2015

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Dr Zaius
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:That's not a randomised controlled trial. That's a cohort study looking at nothing in particular.
We've done this dance before doc, I've posted many links to genuine research and you've ignored it so why bother again.

The above post was more a subtle dig at the health industry, no dramas prescribing drugs that may lead to death but OMG have to tread extra carefully with a drug that's impossible to OD on, what side effect could be worse than death.

You can side up with the Australian medical association and believe they're not acting slowly (trials should've started many years ago) I'd prefer to trust the places that are already using synthetic or natural forms of THC and cannabinoids medicinally, countries including the US, UK, Canada, Finland, Austria, Israel, Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal.
No really MB, I'm genuinely interested and I don't recall you posting high quality randomised controlled trials addressing those clinical questions before. If you have them, surely it's easy to put up a link.

You've already rail roaded the discussion from the appropriateness of the actions of this father, to whether or not Australia is behind the rest of the world, now you try to rail road it further with some rubbish cohort study and bizarrely name drop the AMA.

Two questions:
- Do you believe what this father did is appropriate?
- Do you know what the AMA is?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

I must say I only skimmed those links GEM, but the top three are opinion pieces and the bottom one is a survey. None of them are the quality randomised controlled trials negating the need for ongoing research into this area that I was hoping for.

I honestly don't get marijuana zealots. Bang on about how it cures everything from cancer to the common cold, get upset when governments commission genuine research into the area.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Dr Zaius wrote:
No really MB, I'm genuinely interested and I don't recall you posting high quality randomised controlled trials addressing those clinical questions before. If you have them, surely it's easy to put up a link.

You've already rail roaded the discussion from the appropriateness of the actions of this father, to whether or not Australia is behind the rest of the world, now you try to rail road it further with some rubbish cohort study and bizarrely name drop the AMA.

Two questions:
- Do you believe what this father did is appropriate?
- Do you know what the AMA is?
Over the years during our discussions I have posted many varieties from medical groups that appear in medical journals. When we discussed cancers did you read the 20 odd ones I posted for example?

Answers
1. Yes I do, despite your view on chemo marijuana either natural or synthetic is used in conjunction with it around the world to treat the negative effects. Yes the chemo might be very controlled but I'm guessing chemo practices are pretty much the same globally.

Has a very young kid with 50% chance of survival so even if the oil didn't help the cancer it would improve the quality of life for whatever time she has remaining, increase her appetite, reduce pain and nausea and put a smile on her face.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, he's seen something which he knew Australian doctors are not allowed to recommend but is used in many western countries by experts

2. Which one, the American Medical Association (who have published positive research) or the Australian Medical Association.

There is no doubt we have acted too slowly on it, that cancer council link where it said it can help with the negative effects of chemo was 17years old, why are we only just now trialling something even they knew could help that long ago.

Side note unrelated to weed: About all cancers being different and needing different treatments that may not be the case, saw yesterday about two things they are hopeful could lead to a sort of generic cure, something about anti CD47 and also mitochondrial DNA actually jump from healthy cells into tumour cells something previously assumed was biologically impossible. Hopefully one of those pay off.
Last edited by Manbush on January 18, 2015, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Dr Zaius wrote: get upset when governments commission genuine research into the area.
Happy they are finally doing trials, upset it's taken so bloody long.

Example: this research was published 40yrs ago into nausea caused by chemo.

http://www.ukcia.org/research/antiemetic.php

Small sample size I know but that's one of the issues, most research into it relies on small sample sizes due to strict government regulations on the drug.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Botman »

Genuine question:

If marijuana is some kind of wonder drug that can be used to so effectively across such a wide range of medical issues, why hasn't the big pharmaceutical's used their considerable power and to have this pushed through? I mean it would be easy enough to take what they need, put it in a bottle or pill, patent it and start counting the stacks, right?

I mean there is a number of medicines available which are essentially forms of Heroin.
It just seems odd to me that companies as notriously unscrupulous as big pharmaceuticals wouldnt be all over this thing if there a buck to make out of it.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Toviii »

Is it because you can't put a patent on a naturally occurring product?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Toviii wrote:Is it because you can't put a patent on a naturally occurring product?
That was the road block the American Medical Association believed would hamper medicinal marijuana in their report way back in the 90s.

They have come up with artificial cannabinoids and THC for use in America and the UK as I have mentioned though they don't seem to be as efficient and also appear to have more negative side effects including the ability to overdose.

There's also the issue of different strains of cannabis being good for certain things, some require high THC, some high CBD, some a good mix of both.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Botman »

Toviii wrote:Is it because you can't put a patent on a naturally occurring product?
There is a lot of painkilers derived from natural occurring products. Heroin and a lot of painkillers are made from the resin of poppy plants. It's how big pharma's make their money, they take something like weed, have their scientists break it down, take out what they want, leave what they dont, add it with out chemicals, create a new drug, patent it, and sell it at high profit margins knowing that if it can help loved ones in dire situations, the medical world and the patients wont care about the costs. If there is a buck to be made here (i.e if this can be used so effectively and widely), and the pot heads are adament that there is, it makes no sense that big phrama arent using their VERY considerable power and money to get this over the line and start making money
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Derived from are the key words if you have the pure natural item does it do the same thing, the artificial versions of THC and cannabinoids are just trying to recreate the substance.

Would be a hard sell for doctors in the UK and America.

Doctor: "dont touch the natural version as it's bad for you but here take this synthetic version which isn't as efficient, has more side effects including the possibility of overdosing."
Patient: "um yeah sure thing doc".
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Botman »

So, you're saying both the natural and synthetic versions are bad for people, and there is no safe way to administer the drug at present. That makes sense, i guess that's why this thing isnt off ground yet.

Cheers, MB. You've answered my questions, hopefully yours as well.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

:lol:

No just that it would be hard for doctors who tow the line of years of propaganda that weed is bad for you to then try and prescribe an artificial version which is worse.

Pharmaceutical companies have a vested interest in keeping pot considered bad for you, they are one of the groups responsible for our laws today on it hence why they have tried to recreate artificial versions instead of going natural.

Doctors in America previously had to prescribe the artificial version now though they are free to and are prescribing the natural.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Green eyed Mick »

Toviii wrote:Is it because you can't put a patent on a naturally occurring product?
Part of it. The other part is money. The cannabis lobby doesn't have the $Billions that drug companies spend lobbying governments all over the world.

https://news.vice.com/article/leading-a ... -companies
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Green eyed Mick wrote:
Toviii wrote:Is it because you can't put a patent on a naturally occurring product?
Part of it. The other part is money. The cannabis lobby doesn't have the $Billions that drug companies spend lobbying governments all over the world.

https://news.vice.com/article/leading-a ... -companies
Which is why Im pleasantly surprised the world is coming around especially America, are the companies losing power or is the evidence and calls from doctors just getting too strong for the government to sweep under the carpet for a dollar
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Professor »

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
No really MB, I'm genuinely interested and I don't recall you posting high quality randomised controlled trials addressing those clinical questions before. If you have them, surely it's easy to put up a link.

You've already rail roaded the discussion from the appropriateness of the actions of this father, to whether or not Australia is behind the rest of the world, now you try to rail road it further with some rubbish cohort study and bizarrely name drop the AMA.

Two questions:
- Do you believe what this father did is appropriate?
- Do you know what the AMA is?
Over the years during our discussions I have posted many varieties from medical groups that appear in medical journals. When we discussed cancers did you read the 20 odd ones I posted for example?

Answers
1. Yes I do
You see, at the very least, this surely was your opportunity to perhaps say "look, given I know nothing about the particular cancer which the patient is suffering from; given I know nothing about the process involved for treating it; and given the implications you have outlined which could have / have resulted from the Father playing doctor in the manner that he has, I would have to say no".

I mean, you could have in a broader context continued to push your barrow on this subject (I still would not have subscribed to it, but what do I know? I'm not a doctor of medicine), but to continue to argue the point on this very specific situation? Come on. Seriously, Come on!
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Re: The Politics Thread

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I'm arguing it based on what is being done around the world rather than Australia which is behind with this kind of treatment. A father is desperate and sees something being done successfully abroad since the 80s by experts (not just doctors) but is not a legal option here yet.

I'm definitely the wrong guy to be arguing with a doctor about this but then again he is disagreeing with experts around the world who prescribe natural and synthetic cannabis to counteract the negative effects of chemo.

According to one report:

Since being forced off the cannabis oil last week, Rumer’s condition has dramatically worsened and she is now in intensive care on morphine.

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/28047 ... treatment/

Good news though he is now allowed to see his kid

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensl ... 2rlub.html
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by reptar »

I think you'd have more success arguing your point if you were quoting medical journals, rather than general newspaper articles.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

reptar wrote:I think you'd have more success arguing your point if you were quoting medical journals, rather than general newspaper articles.
Tried that previously doesn't work

Ps there is one on the previous page, an ancient one just to highlight how behind we are
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:Answers
1. Yes I do, despite your view on chemo marijuana either natural or synthetic is used in conjunction with it around the world to treat the negative effects. Yes the chemo might be very controlled but I'm guessing chemo practices are pretty much the same globally.

Has a very young kid with 50% chance of survival so even if the oil didn't help the cancer it would improve the quality of life for whatever time she has remaining, increase her appetite, reduce pain and nausea and put a smile on her face.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, he's seen something which he knew Australian doctors are not allowed to recommend but is used in many western countries by experts
Well, if you don't see that it is inappropriate for the father to administer any type of medication to this child without first discussing it with the treating team, it is pointless continuing this discussion. Seemingly you just don't get it.
Manbush wrote:2. Which one, the American Medical Association (who have published positive research) or the Australian Medical Association.

The Australian Medical Association. Answer the question.
Manbush wrote:There is no doubt we have acted too slowly on it, that cancer council link where it said it can help with the negative effects of chemo was 17years old, why are we only just now trialling something even they knew could help that long ago.
I'm not so sure. Given that nobody seems to be able to link me to any decent research in the area, it would seem that the research is lacking. Given that we are undertaking said research, rather than some backwater it would seem that we are a world leader in this area! BTW, you do know that the TGA does except research from other countries right? We don't have to replicate overseas trials on our shores before they will approve a drug for use you know.
Manbush wrote:Since being forced off the cannabis oil last week, Rumer’s condition has dramatically worsened and she is now in intensive care on morphine.

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/28047 ... treatment/
Jesus Christ Manbush, the kid is undergoing intense chemotherapy. There are any number of reasons why she would end up in intensive care, cessation of marijuana use being the least likely of them.
Manbush wrote:
reptar wrote:I think you'd have more success arguing your point if you were quoting medical journals, rather than general newspaper articles.
Tried that previously doesn't work

Ps there is one on the previous page, an ancient one just to highlight how behind we are
I keep asking you to. You keep avoiding it and then you post this?!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty »

Image
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Raider Bell »

Marshall Ericson with a "lawyered" caption would be fairly spot on.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Nickman »

Good grief Hanbush, why do you get in these discussions with people who CLEARLY KNOW MORE THAN YOU yet just keep on banging on about rubbish and posting clips from Google that you've found yourself??
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Re: The Politics Thread

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Those style quotes are a pain to respond to, thanks doc :lol:

1. Do we know he didn't speak to his or other doctors considering many doctors globally prescribe it, if he had I doubt he'd admit it and get the doc in trouble so who knows.

2. Yeah kind of your union, I should have said board

3. Yes aware TGA needs their own research but considering there was research dating back to 1975 showing positive signs not sure how you can say we aren't slow on doing trials 40yrs later.

Surely you don't believe Australia is the only country that researches/trials a drug before prescribing it, countries including the UK, America, Canada, Isreal, Finland to name a few.

4. Could be many reasons I know.

5.Condsidering I don't believe you read the cancer ones last time Im sure you can understand why Im dubious, also see #3 about other countries relying on trials/research.

Previous page I did provide one from the New England Journal of Medicine, here's one from the American Medical association showing us 35yrs behind them.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=369162

You obviously know the research is there unless you have that little faith in the countries I listed. Im guessing you'd have access to a lot more sites full content than I so if you're genuinely interested you know where to find it.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

The Nickman wrote:Good grief Hanbush, why do you get in these discussions with people who CLEARLY KNOW MORE THAN YOU yet just keep on banging on about rubbish and posting clips from Google that you've found yourself??
:lol:

I know he knows more than me mate what I'm arguing is him knowing more than the doctors currently giving it to their patients for chemo.

Im a sucker for punishment though :lol:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Nickman »

You sure are
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Begbie »

Bagging bushy is a pet sport for the two nicks. Come on boys, it's too easy!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Begbie wrote:Bagging bushy is a pet sport for the two nicks. Come on boys, it's too easy!
I do set myself up well though, even deliberately left an easy "edit" bag out, disappointed he missed it :doubt:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Nickman »

Begbie wrote:Bagging bushy is a pet sport for the two nicks. Come on boys, it's too easy!
He does it to himself Begs!!

It's mindblowing watching him try and "debate" with people who clearly know what they're talking about!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:Those style quotes are a pain to respond to, thanks doc :lol:

1. Do we know he didn't speak to his or other doctors considering many doctors globally prescribe it, if he had I doubt he'd admit it and get the doc in trouble so who knows.
I don't think that anyone is fooled into believing that that was your primary angle. I can't say for certain that this didn't occur, but knowing the personalities of the people likely involved I would suggest that it is very far fetched.
Manbush wrote:2. Yeah kind of your union, I should have said board
Exactly, though not my union as I am not a member. Why do you expect them to produce research, it is not their role?
Manbush wrote:3. Yes aware TGA needs their own research but considering there was research dating back to 1975 showing positive signs not sure how you can say we aren't slow on doing trials 40yrs later.
I think that you need to re-read what I wrote. I said that the the evidence does not have to be Australian, that would be absurd. If there is quality evidence out there, and somebody makes a submission, there is no reason why it shouldn't be approved.

Surely you don't believe Australia is the only country that researches/trials a drug before prescribing it, countries including the UK, America, Canada, Isreal, Finland to name a few.[/quote]

I've read this a few times. It might be that I'm on my third day oncall and am tired but I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Manbush wrote:4. Could be many reasons I know.
Then why post a throw away line from a tabloid press article?
Manbush wrote:5.Condsidering I don't believe you read the cancer ones last time Im sure you can understand why Im dubious, also see #3 about other countries relying on trials/research
TBH, my life is pretty busy and there is a lot on this forum that I don't read. I'm asking nicely. I will read it.
Manbush wrote:Previous page I did provide one from the New England Journal of Medicine, here's one from the American Medical association showing us 35yrs behind them.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=369162
Both articles have quite a small sample size. The first one from 1975 was quite tiny, but encouraging. They were compared to a placebo. We have come a long way since 1975 with anti-emetics, it would be nice to see a comparison to ondansetron or newer 5HT3 antagonists which are very effective and have a low side effect profile. I note that 10% of the subjects had significant side effects such as hallucination.

The second one from 1980 had a larger sample size but still quite small. It wasn't a randomised controlled trial and therefore considered low quality evidence. Again, anti-emetics have come a long way since 1980, so is this as effective as those currently available?

If that is the level of evidence on offer, its not hard to see why its use is not common place. I'd add to that, neither studies were done in children, and neither of them were the oil that the father administered therefore its generalisability to this case is very poor.

On the whole, i think if a large study was done it would be found that THC is an effective anti-emetic. Whether it is as effective as modern anti-emetics and whether its side-effect profile was as good as modern anti-emetics remains to be seen. If it was proven to be the case I would certainly support its use. But the evidence isn't there and it should be subjected to the same rigorous scrutiny any other pharmaceutical should.

BTW, you do realise that JAMA is the Journal of the American Medical Assoication don't you? They publish it, but they don't produce the research. Suggesting that the articles in it are the research of the AMA is like suggesting GE plays for the Raiders because he runs this website.
Manbush wrote:\You obviously know the research is there unless you have that little faith in the countries I listed. Im guessing you'd have access to a lot more sites full content than I so if you're genuinely interested you know where to find it.
I don't actually know that the research is there, which is why I am asking. You have access to Pubmed, same as me. Granted I might be able to access the full article rather than just the abstract.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Botman »

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:Those style quotes are a pain to respond to, thanks doc :lol:

1. Do we know he didn't speak to his or other doctors considering many doctors globally prescribe it, if he had I doubt he'd admit it and get the doc in trouble so who knows.
I don't think that anyone is fooled into believing that that was your primary angle. I can't say for certain that this didn't occur, but knowing the personalities of the people likely involved I would suggest that it is very far fetched.
JUst on this point, if the doctors advised him to do this, why would we even know about it? If it was some wink-wink, nod-nod agreement, wouldnt all those concerned just gotten on with things? If their was an agreement why would anyone in the media even know about it :lol:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manchild »

The couple in VIC stated that their child was given Medicinal Cannabis Oil by the hospital to treat his epilepsy. When they gave it to him at home they were arreated.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Where would a hospital acquire cannabis from? How did the authorities find out about it?
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Manchild
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manchild »

Apparently they had it in their medical report. Not sure where they got it from.

In regards about the authorities finding out about it, they were on ACA when they were doing a piece on the advantages of medicinal cannabis.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Begbie »

Doc, you've been way harsh on bushy.

This is not some medical thesis you're writing. This is the the GH. Half the stuff we don't get Except for the experts like TR. We are simpletons.

Put it in rugby league terms from here on in. We are so proud to have a doctor on our side.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manchild wrote:Apparently they had it in their medical report. Not sure where they got it from.

In regards about the authorities finding out about it, they were on ACA when they were doing a piece on the advantages of medicinal cannabis.
Which kid is this? The only article I found gives the impression they had been using it without the doctors knowledge. If the doctor was providing it I expect that they will be deregistered.
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