The Politics Thread 2015

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Manbush
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Dr Zaius wrote: That wouldn't be acceptable to the public, our politicians or the medical profession for any other medication, so why is it acceptable for this one? Oh that's right, weed's awesome man.
No because as I said its unlike any other drug that has to be approved, it's available everywhere already so it's harm minimization ensuring its at least medical quality instead of street quality. It's being prescribed around the world so while the evidence may not be enough for Australia yet people will see what's happening elsewhere and want to try it so give them in the safest possible means under supervision.

It's going on a roundabout neither of us want so I'm out, as I said history will decide what's right and I'm confident what it will be, but until then harm minimisation IMO is important.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Not pharmaceutical? A known psychoactive agent prescribed in a known quantity with the express purpose of utilising its effects on the central nervous system? Good grief GEM, that sounds like the definition of pharmaceutical. Oh thats right, its weed man.

There isn't just a lack of evidence in Australia Manbush, the lack of evidence is worldwide. We don't just take into account trials held in this country you know. But if you look at the link to that review article I posted you'll see that the evidence for its use is next to none. Other countries may be using it, but other countries use a ton of medications which aren't approved for use in this country. We have a stringent process by which medications are approved for use. It is of a higher standard than most countries. But we should lower our standards, cause its weed man.

How is history going to decide what is right? I can tell you it is not right to compromise good policy and reasonable process for political gain under the weight of a sensationalized media push. The only thing that history will show is whether or not it is actually useful for the treatment of childhood epilepsy. I'm not debating that. I'm actually hoping it is, but as yet there is no proof either way.

As I said, I think that both of you, the media and politicians have your judgement clouded by the fact that this is weed. If it were any other medication, unstudied for its efficacy but known to have potential significant side effects, lets call it Drug X, would you have the same opinion?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Green eyed Mick »

Dr Zaius wrote:Not pharmaceutical? A known psychoactive agent prescribed in a known quantity with the express purpose of utilising its effects on the central nervous system? Good grief GEM, that sounds like the definition of pharmaceutical. Oh thats right, its weed man.

There isn't just a lack of evidence in Australia Manbush, the lack of evidence is worldwide. We don't just take into account trials held in this country you know. But if you look at the link to that review article I posted you'll see that the evidence for its use is next to none. Other countries may be using it, but other countries use a ton of medications which aren't approved for use in this country. We have a stringent process by which medications are approved for use. It is of a higher standard than most countries. But we should lower our standards, cause its weed man.

How is history going to decide what is right? I can tell you it is not right to compromise good policy and reasonable process for political gain under the weight of a sensationalized media push. The only thing that history will show is whether or not it is actually useful for the treatment of childhood epilepsy. I'm not debating that. I'm actually hoping it is, but as yet there is no proof either way.

As I said, I think that both of you, the media and politicians have your judgement clouded by the fact that this is weed. If it were any other medication, unstudied for its efficacy but known to have potential significant side effects, lets call it Drug X, would you have the same opinion?
If I was dying of stage 4 stomach cancer and there were a million or more people saying Drug X helped them keep some food down and if I knew dozens of people who regularly consumed it recreationally and medically without any significant harm I would probably be willing to risk it.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Doc you are aware that many of the supposed uses are the ones high in cbd, a non psychoactive ingredient, at 1% (or even higher) THC the cbd far outweighs it calling it psychoactive can be very misleading.

The history side was as far as how the research goes.

The known to have potential significant side effects are as weak as the pro ones you dismiss so readily and in many cases like schizophrenia have many more recent studies that dismiss them.

What we do know is it's not fatal (which would have to be the worst side effect of any drug and many legal ones are) and its safer than legal recreational ones.

We agree on a bit, more research required and a hope it does work, our main disagreement is as I can see the "hail mary" play" minimizing the harm to those that would try it for that purpose, I don't think anyone would resort to it as their first port of call.
Last edited by Manbush on October 9, 2015, 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Green eyed Mick wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:Not pharmaceutical? A known psychoactive agent prescribed in a known quantity with the express purpose of utilising its effects on the central nervous system? Good grief GEM, that sounds like the definition of pharmaceutical. Oh thats right, its weed man.

There isn't just a lack of evidence in Australia Manbush, the lack of evidence is worldwide. We don't just take into account trials held in this country you know. But if you look at the link to that review article I posted you'll see that the evidence for its use is next to none. Other countries may be using it, but other countries use a ton of medications which aren't approved for use in this country. We have a stringent process by which medications are approved for use. It is of a higher standard than most countries. But we should lower our standards, cause its weed man.

How is history going to decide what is right? I can tell you it is not right to compromise good policy and reasonable process for political gain under the weight of a sensationalized media push. The only thing that history will show is whether or not it is actually useful for the treatment of childhood epilepsy. I'm not debating that. I'm actually hoping it is, but as yet there is no proof either way.

As I said, I think that both of you, the media and politicians have your judgement clouded by the fact that this is weed. If it were any other medication, unstudied for its efficacy but known to have potential significant side effects, lets call it Drug X, would you have the same opinion?
If I was dying of stage 4 stomach cancer and there were a million or more people saying Drug X helped them keep some food down and if I knew dozens of people who regularly consumed it recreationally and medically without any significant harm I would probably be willing to risk it.
That's a fair point. I have been specifically discussing it in regards to the treatment of childhood epilepsy though.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Yeah I haven't been singling out any "Hail Mary" scenarios, but on epilepsy then if a kid is having 100 seizures a day that's no quality of life so I'd consider that a Hail Mary scenario if they can try something that is non psychoactive and they've seen reports of it being effective (to the point a grand father donates $33 million to research after what he believes it did for his grand child) they're going to try it and Id find it hard to believe anyone would condemn them.

I've read somewhere they are trying removing 50% of their frontal lobe as a treatment, I know which one I'd consider lower risk.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

There are plenty of desperate people out there in awful situations willing to try anything. I reckon that we should do away with clinical trials and the TGA process. If one party claims that something works and the second party is desperate enough to try anything, well I reckon that's good enough.
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Re: The Politics Thread

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I guess it's a way of expanding the trials, they're going to do it anyway (since can buy it anywhere) so let's reduce the risk of harm (by using the proper quality instead of street quality) and have the results observable rather than hidden away (so become evidence rather than anecdotal) and have to remember it is to be used if other avenues aren't working (interpretation as you said could be open).

Once again I'm out, lol neither of us can be **** with this but we keep dragging each other in.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:I guess it's a way of expanding the trials, they're going to do it anyway (since can buy it anywhere) so let's reduce the risk of harm (by using the proper quality instead of street quality) and have the results observable rather than hidden away (so become evidence rather than anecdotal) and have to remember it is to be used if other avenues aren't working (interpretation as you said could be open).

Once again I'm out, lol neither of us can be **** with this but we keep dragging each other in.
It's not a way of expanding the trials, it's a way of scoring a headline. As you suggested, all of these kids are going to have the opportunity to trial medical marijuana in a controlled fashion in a study under expert supervision. Legalising it actually undermines the trial by making it available without being in a trial, thereby potentially dropping the numbers in the trial making it a lower quality study. Additionally, it possibly means that the kids aren't under expert care, rather than some cowboy who is willing to prescribe it despite not knowing what it does.

Given that it is soon going to be available through the study, there seems to be little advantage in legalising it apart from scoring political points.
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Re: The Politics Thread

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Alright you've dragged me back but purely for questions about medical trials. Are they usually limited by number and also location? Number is clear but I'll use Qld as an example for location as I don't know Vic, if the trials were being done through the Gold Coast what would happen if someone lived in say Cairns?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:Alright you've dragged me back but purely for questions about medical trials. Are they usually limited by number and also location? Number is clear but I'll use Qld as an example for location as I don't know Vic, if the trials were being done through the Gold Coast what would happen if someone lived in say Cairns?
Well the first thing to say is that the theoretical use of medical marijuana is in a very small population. It's hard to say, but I'd estimate the number of children in Australia that would potentially benefit would be in the hundreds rather than thousands.

The second thing is that having a large number in a study is very important to adequately power the study, and while there is obviously a limit to the number of people who can be incorporated into a trial - generally based on funding and the number needed to adequately power the study. I'd be surprised if the number of children in Australia eligible to participate exceeded the number that they were looking to recruit.

Thirdly, any child with refractory epilepsy in Vic, NSW or QLD is almost certainly going to be managed by a paediatric neurologist at one of the kids hospitals in Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane and comanaged with a general paediatrician in their regional area. These are the same people who will run the study, thus I don't see rural location as a barrier to accessing the study.

In short the researchers will likely want anyone that they can get. If a patient is eligible and his or her parents are consenting I have no doubt that they will be able to participate in the trial.
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Re: The Politics Thread

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Cheers, read somewhere not sure how accurate that there are 454 kids in Victoria that "might" benefit.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

Manbush wrote:Cheers, read somewhere not sure how accurate that there are 454 kids in Victoria that "might" benefit.
I'd imagine a similar number in NSW then and a bit less in Queensland. It's possible that Vic will take referrals from the Western states. Not all parents will want to enrol, but if they could get 1000 all up it would be a very impressive study and by far the most comprehensive world wide.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty »

Canberra Capitals to fly equality flag with rainbow jerseys in WNBL: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/basketball/ ... z3o7WbsAMo

Image

Good on them.

p.s. there has already been some incredible responses to this.

Not good that my Daughter loves basketball yet i have to tell her you can only play if you lose your Christian faith and be a lesbian. No place for politicial bias in sport!!!!!!!
Last edited by Schifty on October 10, 2015, 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

Some parents in the U.S. have moved to different states as a last resort so can see that possibly occurring here as well
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

I don't think Huckabee realises what he did there :lol:


Image
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty »

Move along, nothing to see here..


*reinstated with direct source :woot: *

Image

http://www.afr.com/brand/rear-window/to ... z3plN6i8So
Last edited by Schifty on October 27, 2015, 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

An EDIT?

Spewing I missed it must've been a beauty
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty »

Not sure where to put this :lol:

Glory boss Sage takes a pot shot with marijuana deal

Perth Glory boss Tony Sage has turned to the production of medical marijuana to give his bottom line a new high as he seeks to ensure his on-going ability to finance the FFA Cup finalist long into the future.

Disturbed by the downturn in the mining sector, the minerals magnate sought to weed out new ventures and Sage’s International Goldfields has acquired an 85 per cent interest in a Uruguayan pharmaceutical biosciences player, Winter Garden Biosciences, which manufactures medical grade marijuana for worldwide distribution.

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/article/ ... juana-deal

:shock: :lol:
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Re: The Politics Thread

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Coming in the school gate: The battle over religious education in public schools

A series of incidents involving extreme Christian teachings about wives submitting to husbands, gender roles and Harry Potter being witchcraft in NSW public schools has led to renewed calls to ban scripture classes during school hours.

Read more. http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015 ... ic-schools

Examples of things women do wrong is they talk too much, pay for things and not let men chase them :shock: :lol:

Not living in NSW does the Christian Right really have this much power over the government to get away with this ****?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Nickman »

Women DO talk too much though, Bushy.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Manbush »

However bad I think politics is in Australia I just look at America, this is from one of their leading candidates :shock:


“My own personal theory is that Joseph built the pyramids to store grain,” Carson said. “Now all the archeologists think that they were made for the pharaohs’ graves. But, you know, it would have to be something awfully big if you stop and think about it. And I don’t think it’d just disappear over the course of time to store that much grain.”

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... oahs-tombs

If him or Trump get in the world is ****!

Carson doesn't even seem to know Americas history, claims they were founded on Christian values and claims God in their founding documents. Hint Dr Carson your founding fathers were deists who didn't think much of Christianity, "In God we trust" etc were added to your money and stuff around the 50s and your country was founded on secular values.
Last edited by Manbush on November 6, 2015, 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by papabear »

Tbh I have found trump very entertaining.

Wouldn't mind watching him go around just for the fun value. Although I imagine the weight of the presidency will bring his fun tone down a bit.
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Re: The Politics Thread

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Oh don't get me wrong they'd be great entertainment nut jobs usually are.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Cranky Old Man »

There is much about US politics which should serve as a demonstration of disastrous consequences of seemingly good if simplistic ideas being put into action.
The arrival of Trump and his fellow wackos is a response to the combination of rank and file primary election of candidates with optional voting in elections dropping participation rates down below 50% and the legal disenfranchisement of so many potential voters.
It all soon degenerates to the stage where only hardliners bother to take part. At the moment hardline nutters seem to control the Republicans and Trump is an almost logical consequence. He seems to be a better bet than some of the other candidates floating on top of the pool.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty »

Just saw this on twitter..
48Emily Louise
‏@drobwlldiad
New Zealand will not support Australia's bid for a seat n the UN Security Council as we carry out human rights abuses #auspol
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Notaroboticfish »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... k#comments
I honestly don't see how this is homophobia.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty »

This is why you should not smoke pot

Image

Game over.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by T_R »

/debate
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Schifty »

Image

What :shock: :shock: :?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by The Nickman »

Bahahahahahahahaha!!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dr Zaius »

What does that even mean? That they want to legalise being afraid of children?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by reptar »

Dr Zaius wrote:What does that even mean? That they want to legalise being afraid of children?
Apparently that's a problem
Gina Riley: Oh, come on, John. That’s a bit old hat, the corrupt IOC delegate.
John Clarke: Old hat? Gina, in the scientific world when they see that something is happening again and again and again, repeatedly, they don’t call it old hat. They call it a pattern.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by T_R »

Laugh?

Cry?
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: The Politics Thread

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