One signal will put an end to all religions

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Schifty » October 3, 2015, 10:21 pm

greeneyed wrote:Tolerance is not saying: "What those people are doing is not right, but I'll 'tolerate' them. And they don't deserve the same rights I have, because what they do is 'not right'. And, oh, some of my best friends are *add what you like*, but of course we love them." If people are not harming others... let them be, and don't judge them.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 6:32 am

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: I think you need to go back and read some of the posts in this and the religion thread. There is plenty of hateful language.
You want hateful language, listen to a preacher talk about non believers or homosexuals.

If I started an institution that preached all religious people deserve to be tortured or a gay man released a book which was their "manual" to life that had religious people should be stoned to death, how long do you think it would take for me to be closed down or for the book to be banned for inciting hate yet those exact things are defended when done by the religious.

I try to avoid calling people names or insulting them personally but seriously if you think those things are hateful language you should read up on religion. Religion is the only thing that is allowed to be hateful but remain immune to any criticism.
But there is a fatter chick over there. Doesn't make it right Manbush.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 8:57 am

I agree Doc which is why I try not to use hateful language, but as you say some people can be jerks where as the "fatter chick over there" you have been defending is the actual institutions, their manuals to life etc using even more hateful language, but they are immune to criticism according to some.

I'm with A C Grayling

"It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were, a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions."
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by dubby » October 4, 2015, 9:06 am

Manbush wrote:Is there scientific proof against leprechauns, unicorns, Santa Claus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You cannot disprove the existence of imaginary beings hence why the burden of proof lies with those making extraordinary claims.
You're just paraphrasing dawkins.

Manbush, you're at least good natured in your banter. I have the impression you're not condescending, malicious or downright rude.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by dubby » October 4, 2015, 9:07 am

greeneyed wrote:Tolerance is not saying: "What those people are doing is not right, but I'll 'tolerate' them. And they don't deserve the same rights I have, because what they do is 'not right'. And, oh, some of my best friends are *add what you like*, but of course we love them." If people are not harming others... let them be, and don't judge them.
Geez that's glib.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 9:22 am

dubby wrote:
Manbush wrote:Is there scientific proof against leprechauns, unicorns, Santa Claus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You cannot disprove the existence of imaginary beings hence why the burden of proof lies with those making extraordinary claims.
You're just paraphrasing dawkins.

Manbush, you're at least good natured in your banter. I have the impression you're not condescending, malicious or downright rude.
Not deliberately paraphrasing him, it's just a logical rebuttal when someone says can't disprove god.

I'll admit sometimes I can come accross condescending because in some conversations it's the consequence of the topic, rude and malicious definitely not. As I've said I like and respect many religious people as a majority you're a great bunch (as are humans as a whole), it's the beliefs and institutions not the people I have a problem with hence why I try not to insult individuals, that's one thing we have in common Dubby, we both argue with people without resorting to personal insults unlike many others.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 9:30 am

Manbush wrote:I agree Doc which is why I try not to use hateful language, but as you say some people can be jerks where as the "fatter chick over there" you have been defending is the actual institutions, their manuals to life etc using even more hateful language, but they are immune to criticism according to some.

I'm with A C Grayling

"It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were, a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions."
I'm not defending anyone. What some institutions have done in the name of religion is abhorrent and should be condemned. I also think that a lot of what has been done in the name of religion has been done by individuals to serve their agenda. The majority of religious people are normal people, living normal lives and who practice their faith in their own time. It is not right to lump those people in with the minority. Just because there are jerks in religion, doesn't mean that you can be a jerk yourself.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Seiffert82 » October 4, 2015, 9:33 am

How on earth does 'tolerance' have nothing to do with tolerating behavior?

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 9:36 am

Tolerance is just an awful, awful term. You tolerate something that you don't like.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 9:43 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:I agree Doc which is why I try not to use hateful language, but as you say some people can be jerks where as the "fatter chick over there" you have been defending is the actual institutions, their manuals to life etc using even more hateful language, but they are immune to criticism according to some.

I'm with A C Grayling

"It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were, a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions."
I'm not defending anyone. What some institutions have done in the name of religion is abhorrent and should be condemned. I also think that a lot of what has been done in the name of religion has been done by individuals to serve their agenda. The majority of religious people are normal people, living normal lives and who practice their faith in their own time. It is not right to lump those people in with the minority. Just because there are jerks in religion, doesn't mean that you can be a jerk yourself.
You missed the point though Doc, it's the actual religion itself, the sermons, the holy texts which have hateful language, it also empowers and puts those using the texts to be jerks beyond criticism.

Yes the majority of religious people are good people, but that's despite religion, they don't live totally by what their religions believe hence why I try to criticise the religions themselves not the individuals.
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 9:54 am

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:I agree Doc which is why I try not to use hateful language, but as you say some people can be jerks where as the "fatter chick over there" you have been defending is the actual institutions, their manuals to life etc using even more hateful language, but they are immune to criticism according to some.

I'm with A C Grayling

"It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were, a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions."
I'm not defending anyone. What some institutions have done in the name of religion is abhorrent and should be condemned. I also think that a lot of what has been done in the name of religion has been done by individuals to serve their agenda. The majority of religious people are normal people, living normal lives and who practice their faith in their own time. It is not right to lump those people in with the minority. Just because there are jerks in religion, doesn't mean that you can be a jerk yourself.
You missed the point though Doc, it's the actual religion itself, the sermons, the holy texts which have hateful language, it also empowers and puts those using the texts to be jerks beyond criticism.

Yes the majority of religious people are good people, but that's despite religion, they don't live totally by what their religions believe hence why I try to criticise the religions themselves not the individuals.
I grew up in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools. Now I am not religious, I'm more agnostic or atheist than anything. But I honestly can't remember a single hateful sermon giving during a mass or school religious ed lesson. Quite the opposite in fact. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, but it seems greatly exaggerated in your mind.

And besides, it seems that it is you that is missing the point. As ice said, God knows how many times now, other people carrying on like jerks doesn't excuse individual atheists for carrying on like a jerks.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 9:55 am

Seiffert82 wrote:How on earth does 'tolerance' have nothing to do with tolerating behavior?
Tricky one but since gay marriage has been a subject here I'll use that as an example.

I will tolerate people who personally are against gay marriage but do nothing to fight it (it's their belief they are free to have it), but as I believe it's a human rights and equality issue so inherently wrong I will not tolerate the behavior of those fighting against it (as they do not have the right to restrict equality due to their personal belief).
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Seiffert82 » October 4, 2015, 10:03 am

gangrenous wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:Like most debates about the content of the Bible, there are way too many passages quoted here out of context or without an understanding of the historical environment in which it was written. Quoting certain 'rules' contained in the Old Testament like they are relevant under the paradigm of the New Testament simply demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the entire journey of God's people and the fundamental reason for the coming of Jesus.
I disagree. This is a weak **** excuse that's commonly trotted out by Christians in my experience. If the bible is the word of God the historical context of the old testament doesn't matter an ounce. There are clearly terrible things in there which shouldn't come from an all-loving deity. It is most likely that it is the word of men from thousands of years ago, not God, and that's why it fits the historical context so neatly.
God is all loving, but he is also a just God and a jealous God. This is a tricky concept for people to handle if they want everything to be all happy happy joy joy. Awful stuff is recounted in the Bible. There is no denying that these wars and such suffering happened.

What is completely lost in this discussion is all the amazing things that God has done, including through his people, over the course of history. The key role that Christians played in the abolition of slavery for example, or the medical, education and charitable services provided every day by millions of people around the world - to people of all faiths or with no faith at all.

Clearly not everyone in the world is going to be right in regards to their views on God and religion. It is what it is. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament. There is a reason for that and it's all explained in the books of the Bible.

Of course everyone has the free will to read what they want to read, believe what they want to believe and behave the way they want to behave. That's the beauty of life, but that freedom comes with great responsibility.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 10:04 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:I agree Doc which is why I try not to use hateful language, but as you say some people can be jerks where as the "fatter chick over there" you have been defending is the actual institutions, their manuals to life etc using even more hateful language, but they are immune to criticism according to some.

I'm with A C Grayling

"It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were, a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions."
I'm not defending anyone. What some institutions have done in the name of religion is abhorrent and should be condemned. I also think that a lot of what has been done in the name of religion has been done by individuals to serve their agenda. The majority of religious people are normal people, living normal lives and who practice their faith in their own time. It is not right to lump those people in with the minority. Just because there are jerks in religion, doesn't mean that you can be a jerk yourself.
You missed the point though Doc, it's the actual religion itself, the sermons, the holy texts which have hateful language, it also empowers and puts those using the texts to be jerks beyond criticism.

Yes the majority of religious people are good people, but that's despite religion, they don't live totally by what their religions believe hence why I try to criticise the religions themselves not the individuals.
I grew up in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools. Now I am not religious, I'm more agnostic or atheist than anything. But I honestly can't remember a single hateful sermon giving during a mass or school religious ed lesson. Quite the opposite in fact. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, but it seems greatly exaggerated in your mind.

And besides, it seems that it is you that is missing the point. As ice said, God knows how many times now, other people carrying on like jerks doesn't excuse individual atheists for carrying on like a jerks.
Read the bible or listen to preachers talk about homosexuals, it's the institutions and their holy books which are the jerks and deserve the criticism.

An example closer to home for you, it's the Jehovas witness religion against blood transfusions which stops them helping kids, therefore should you just criticise the individual who lets their kids die or the belief that has brainwashed them into believing it.
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 10:08 am

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:I agree Doc which is why I try not to use hateful language, but as you say some people can be jerks where as the "fatter chick over there" you have been defending is the actual institutions, their manuals to life etc using even more hateful language, but they are immune to criticism according to some.

I'm with A C Grayling

"It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were, a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions."
I'm not defending anyone. What some institutions have done in the name of religion is abhorrent and should be condemned. I also think that a lot of what has been done in the name of religion has been done by individuals to serve their agenda. The majority of religious people are normal people, living normal lives and who practice their faith in their own time. It is not right to lump those people in with the minority. Just because there are jerks in religion, doesn't mean that you can be a jerk yourself.
You missed the point though Doc, it's the actual religion itself, the sermons, the holy texts which have hateful language, it also empowers and puts those using the texts to be jerks beyond criticism.

Yes the majority of religious people are good people, but that's despite religion, they don't live totally by what their religions believe hence why I try to criticise the religions themselves not the individuals.
I grew up in a Catholic family and went to Catholic schools. Now I am not religious, I'm more agnostic or atheist than anything. But I honestly can't remember a single hateful sermon giving during a mass or school religious ed lesson. Quite the opposite in fact. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, but it seems greatly exaggerated in your mind.

And besides, it seems that it is you that is missing the point. As ice said, God knows how many times now, other people carrying on like jerks doesn't excuse individual atheists for carrying on like a jerks.
Read the bible or listen to preachers talk about homosexuals, it's the institutions and their holy books which are the jerks and deserve the criticism.

An example closer to home for you, it's the Jehovas witness religion against blood transfusions which stops them helping kids, therefore should you just criticise the individual who lets their kids die or the belief that has brainwashed them into believing it.
Good grief Manbush, you seem to fixate on a point and like a pitbull just can't let it go. No where have I said that bad things don't happen in the name of religion.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 10:17 am

Seiffert82 wrote: God is all loving, but he is also a just God and a jealous God. This is a tricky concept for people to handle if they want everything to be all happy happy joy joy. Awful stuff is recounted in the Bible. There is no denying that these wars and such suffering happened.

What is completely lost in this discussion is all the amazing things that God has done, including through his people, over the course of history. The key role that Christians played in the abolition of slavery for example, or the medical, education and charitable services provided every day by millions of people around the world - to people of all faiths or with no faith at all.
No God is not all loving, an all loving being does not punish those for simply not worshiping him, he is also not just he is unjust, once again a just being does not send someone to eternal torture no matter how good they are for simply not believing in him, for using their brain and relying on evidence, a just god would also not reward evil people with eternal bliss who simply repent on their death bed, a just God would also not punish those for simply being born in the wrong place, ie somewhere with a different religion or a place with poor quality of life.

You're giving credit to God for actions of man, (if you believe in him then you have to blame him for natural disasters what a poorly designed earth). If say God was against slavery he should have put it in the bible but no the bible condones slavery. All those things you say could've been achieved with no religion but religious belief was the majority, religion has also stood in the way of science, medicine, education, a lot of its charity work is used as blackmail, "we'll help if you follow our God" type of thing.

If someone had the power to save 9million children from dying per year and stop children and women being raped but didn't I'd call him evil where as you call him God.
Last edited by Manbush on October 4, 2015, 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 10:22 am

Dr Zaius wrote: Good grief Manbush, you seem to fixate on a point and like a pitbull just can't let it go. No where have I said that bad things don't happen in the name of religion.
It's not just in the name of religion, it is because of religion and their holy texts which is why they are not immune to criticism.
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 10:23 am

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Good grief Manbush, you seem to fixate on a point and like a pitbull just can't let it go. No where have I said that bad things don't happen in the name of religion.
It's not just in the name of religion, it is because of religion and their holy texts which is why they are not immune to criticism.
Good grief Manbush, you are obsessed with this just about as much as you are obsessed with pot. You seem to have a very black and white view of the world.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 10:34 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Good grief Manbush, you seem to fixate on a point and like a pitbull just can't let it go. No where have I said that bad things don't happen in the name of religion.
It's not just in the name of religion, it is because of religion and their holy texts which is why they are not immune to criticism.
Good grief Manbush, you are obsessed with this just about as much as you are obsessed with pot. You seem to have a very black and white view of the world.
My apologies for being passionate about something I believe is detrimental to society and also passionate about something I believe has the potential to be beneficial to society.
"My own opinion is enough for me and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time, and anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass" Christopher Hitchens

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by gangrenous » October 4, 2015, 10:47 am

Seiffert82 wrote:
gangrenous wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:Like most debates about the content of the Bible, there are way too many passages quoted here out of context or without an understanding of the historical environment in which it was written. Quoting certain 'rules' contained in the Old Testament like they are relevant under the paradigm of the New Testament simply demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the entire journey of God's people and the fundamental reason for the coming of Jesus.
I disagree. This is a weak **** excuse that's commonly trotted out by Christians in my experience. If the bible is the word of God the historical context of the old testament doesn't matter an ounce. There are clearly terrible things in there which shouldn't come from an all-loving deity. It is most likely that it is the word of men from thousands of years ago, not God, and that's why it fits the historical context so neatly.
God is all loving, but he is also a just God and a jealous God. This is a tricky concept for people to handle if they want everything to be all happy happy joy joy. Awful stuff is recounted in the Bible. There is no denying that these wars and such suffering happened.

What is completely lost in this discussion is all the amazing things that God has done, including through his people, over the course of history. The key role that Christians played in the abolition of slavery for example, or the medical, education and charitable services provided every day by millions of people around the world - to people of all faiths or with no faith at all.

Clearly not everyone in the world is going to be right in regards to their views on God and religion. It is what it is. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament. There is a reason for that and it's all explained in the books of the Bible.

Of course everyone has the free will to read what they want to read, believe what they want to believe and behave the way they want to behave. That's the beauty of life, but that freedom comes with great responsibility.
I don't really see that much of that is relevant to what I said.

What individual Christians did regarding slavery is beside the point. Point is the omnipotent God thought it was a pretty sweet way to operate in the Old Testament. There is simply no excusing that really is there?

It's not just that bad stuff happens in the bible. It's that the all loving God advocates some of it.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Seiffert82 » October 4, 2015, 11:08 am

gangrenous wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:
gangrenous wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:Like most debates about the content of the Bible, there are way too many passages quoted here out of context or without an understanding of the historical environment in which it was written. Quoting certain 'rules' contained in the Old Testament like they are relevant under the paradigm of the New Testament simply demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the entire journey of God's people and the fundamental reason for the coming of Jesus.
I disagree. This is a weak **** excuse that's commonly trotted out by Christians in my experience. If the bible is the word of God the historical context of the old testament doesn't matter an ounce. There are clearly terrible things in there which shouldn't come from an all-loving deity. It is most likely that it is the word of men from thousands of years ago, not God, and that's why it fits the historical context so neatly.
God is all loving, but he is also a just God and a jealous God. This is a tricky concept for people to handle if they want everything to be all happy happy joy joy. Awful stuff is recounted in the Bible. There is no denying that these wars and such suffering happened.

What is completely lost in this discussion is all the amazing things that God has done, including through his people, over the course of history. The key role that Christians played in the abolition of slavery for example, or the medical, education and charitable services provided every day by millions of people around the world - to people of all faiths or with no faith at all.

Clearly not everyone in the world is going to be right in regards to their views on God and religion. It is what it is. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament. There is a reason for that and it's all explained in the books of the Bible.

Of course everyone has the free will to read what they want to read, believe what they want to believe and behave the way they want to behave. That's the beauty of life, but that freedom comes with great responsibility.
I don't really see that much of that is relevant to what I said.

What individual Christians did regarding slavery is beside the point. Point is the omnipotent God thought it was a pretty sweet way to operate in the Old Testament. There is simply no excusing that really is there?

It's not just that bad stuff happens in the bible. It's that the all loving God advocates some of it.
Yes, yes he did...and all of what I said is relevant to that point.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 11:20 am

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Good grief Manbush, you seem to fixate on a point and like a pitbull just can't let it go. No where have I said that bad things don't happen in the name of religion.
It's not just in the name of religion, it is because of religion and their holy texts which is why they are not immune to criticism.
Good grief Manbush, you are obsessed with this just about as much as you are obsessed with pot. You seem to have a very black and white view of the world.
My apologies for being passionate about something I believe is detrimental to society and also passionate about something I believe has the potential to be beneficial to society.
Neither to the extent that you seem to imagine
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Shadow Boxer » October 4, 2015, 11:31 am

Dr Zaius wrote:Tolerance is just an awful, awful term. You tolerate something that you don't like.
It is a tricky one, the trouble with tolerance is it needs to be practiced by everyone to work, otherwise it is just appeasement.

If religious people butted out of everyday life on things like letting people choose who to love or whether to have a family then I think people would be far more tolerant of them going about their business.

Unfortunately religion by its nature necessitates forcing others to bend to its doctrine.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 11:32 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote: Good grief Manbush, you seem to fixate on a point and like a pitbull just can't let it go. No where have I said that bad things don't happen in the name of religion.
It's not just in the name of religion, it is because of religion and their holy texts which is why they are not immune to criticism.
Good grief Manbush, you are obsessed with this just about as much as you are obsessed with pot. You seem to have a very black and white view of the world.
My apologies for being passionate about something I believe is detrimental to society and also passionate about something I believe has the potential to be beneficial to society.
Neither to the extent that you seem to imagine
In your opinion, history would prove you wrong about religion and well scientists see enough potential for the benefits to be researching them further and implementing them in some places already ;)
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 11:35 am

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote: It's not just in the name of religion, it is because of religion and their holy texts which is why they are not immune to criticism.
Good grief Manbush, you are obsessed with this just about as much as you are obsessed with pot. You seem to have a very black and white view of the world.
My apologies for being passionate about something I believe is detrimental to society and also passionate about something I believe has the potential to be beneficial to society.
Neither to the extent that you seem to imagine
In your opinion, history would prove you wrong about religion and well scientists see enough potential for the benefits to be researching them further and implementing them in some places already ;)
I disagree with your first point, again you see the world in black and white. As for pot, potential yet as unproven benefits in very specific circumstances, not the cure all that you seem to think it is. Again, black and white.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 11:36 am

Shadow Boxer wrote: Unfortunately religion by its nature necessitates forcing others to bend to its doctrine.
That line reminds me of a great quote from Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the Muslim Brotherhood and one of the most respected leaders of the Sunni world, "If they had gotten rid of the punishment for apostasy, Islam would not exist today."
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 11:47 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
I disagree with your first point, again you see the world in black and white. As for pot, potential yet as unproven benefits in very specific circumstances, not the cure all that you seem to think it is. Again, black and white.
So the history of oppression, discrimantion, wars etc aren't proof for you.

As for "cure all" I don't believe that's the case, shows a lot of promising signs in a lot of areas, a lot of positive small scale research, anecdotal evidence (enough for someone to make a $30mil donation out of his own pocket after he saw what it did for his daughter), I do agree more research is required before it's considered cures etc.

I don't see it black and white, once again I'll say there are some great religious people but that's not because of their religion it's despite of it.

A C Grayling says it well

If I see two men do good, one because he takes himself to be commanded to it by a supernatural agency and the other solely because he cares about his fellow man, I honor the latter infinitely more.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 11:55 am

Manbush wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
I disagree with your first point, again you see the world in black and white. As for pot, potential yet as unproven benefits in very specific circumstances, not the cure all that you seem to think it is. Again, black and white.
So the history of oppression, discrimantion, wars etc aren't proof for you.
They are proof that bad things happen in the name of religion, nothing more, nothing less. No one can claim to know how society would be these days without religion. Hot tip, plenty of societies have done awful things not because they are religious but because they are *****. The Khans, The Nazis, Stalin to name a few. On the flip side religion has had a positive effect on many societies. I honestly can't say if the world would be better, worse or much the same without religion and neither could you if your thought patterns weren't so rigid. I'm tipping much the same as awful people will always find reasons to do awful things.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 12:11 pm

Name one good thing achieved by a religious society that couldn't have been achieved through secularism.

Yes bad things will always happen regardless of who runs it, but the more excuses that are removed especially ones with no basis in reality who are protected from criticism and do not have to justify their actions other than I was told by an invisible being so therefore can't be verified the better.

You seem to believe the only belief/opinions which cannot be criticised are religious beliefs where as I believe all beliefs are free to be criticised especially when they have no evidence to support them. For me the only things that shouldn't be criticised are ones which are not a choice, ie gender, race, disability and sexuality.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 12:16 pm

Manbush wrote:Name one good thing achieved by a religious society that couldn't have been achieved through secularism.
Pointless. Because they could be achieved because of secularism doesn't negate the fact that they were achieved because of religion.
Manbush wrote:Yes bad things will always happen regardless of who runs it, but the more excuses that are removed especially ones with no basis in reality who are protected from criticism and do not have to justify their actions other than I was told by an invisible being so therefore can't be verified the better.

You seem to believe the only belief/opinions which cannot be criticised are religious beliefs where as I believe all beliefs are free to be criticised especially when they have no evidence to support them. For me the only things that shouldn't be criticised are ones which are not a choice, ie gender, race, disability and sexuality.
I've never said that they can't be criticised, in fact I've criticised them in this thread. Stop putting words into my mouth.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 12:54 pm

You could say what was achieved was more due to humanity rather than religion it's just the religious were the majority, take slavery if you go by the bible slavery is ok where as religion evolved to human morality so they ignore that part, they cherry pick which is one of the dangers of religion it allows crazies to do anything and justify it by their religious texts.

Haha so we're the same in that regard mate I'm just more passionate about it, the past few pages could've been shortened by simply agreeing the beliefs can be criticised but the majority of religious people are good so the individuals shouldn't which is what I've said in a number of ways.

Some atheists (and religious people for that matter) do go too far and attack the person, I hope you notice I try and avoid that (on all subjects not just religion).
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Dr Zaius » October 4, 2015, 1:00 pm

Manbush wrote:You could say what was achieved was more due to humanity rather than religion it's just the religious were the majority, take slavery if you go by the bible slavery is ok where as religion evolved to human morality so they ignore that part, they cherry pick which is one of the dangers of religion it allows crazies to do anything and justify it by their religious texts.

Haha so we're the same in that regard mate I'm just more passionate about it, the past few pages could've been shortened by simply agreeing the beliefs can be criticised but the majority of religious people are good so the individuals shouldn't which is what I've said in a number of ways.

Some atheists (and religious people for that matter) do go too far and attack the person, I hope you notice I try and avoid that (on all subjects not just religion).
That's fair enough, though I'd argue that without religion, bad people would still do bad things, they would just find another reason. My criticism isn't directly leveled at you Manbush. I do object to terms others have used in this thread such as "retards" however.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by gangrenous » October 4, 2015, 1:04 pm

Seiffert82 wrote: Yes, yes he did...and all of what I said is relevant to that point.
Not really.

You respond with:
* God is just and jealous - That's wonderful, doesn't explain or justify God being evil
* Not everything has to be happy happy joy joy - Perhaps not, but it doesn't justify God actively advocating evil behaviour.
* Christians have done some wonderful stuff - Well it's highly debatable that that should be tied to God. Even if we do assume that God did do that, it's really lovely that whilst keeping slaves and condemning the gays during the week he finds time to help out in soup kitchens on the weekends.
* Not everyone can be right - Completely irrelevant.
* Everyone can believe what they want - Completely irrelevant.

Perhaps I was too harsh saying your post was irrelevant. There were bits that had some tangential relevance, but I can't see any argument of any significance there to defend why "God's word" would ever contain such garbage in it.

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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Manbush » October 4, 2015, 1:45 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
Manbush wrote:You could say what was achieved was more due to humanity rather than religion it's just the religious were the majority, take slavery if you go by the bible slavery is ok where as religion evolved to human morality so they ignore that part, they cherry pick which is one of the dangers of religion it allows crazies to do anything and justify it by their religious texts.

Haha so we're the same in that regard mate I'm just more passionate about it, the past few pages could've been shortened by simply agreeing the beliefs can be criticised but the majority of religious people are good so the individuals shouldn't which is what I've said in a number of ways.

Some atheists (and religious people for that matter) do go too far and attack the person, I hope you notice I try and avoid that (on all subjects not just religion).
That's fair enough, though I'd argue that without religion, bad people would still do bad things, they would just find another reason. My criticism isn't directly leveled at you Manbush. I do object to terms others have used in this thread such as "retards" however.
Agree, bad people will always do bad things but for mine the less excuses and motivatiors for it the better and those excuses are within their "manual" to life, a "manual" which is not required, basically the bible, qoran etc empowers and justifies crazies to do crazy things.
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Re: One signal will put an end to all religions

Post by Seiffert82 » October 4, 2015, 9:40 pm

gangrenous wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote: Yes, yes he did...and all of what I said is relevant to that point.
Not really.

You respond with:
* God is just and jealous - That's wonderful, doesn't explain or justify God being evil
* Not everything has to be happy happy joy joy - Perhaps not, but it doesn't justify God actively advocating evil behaviour.
* Christians have done some wonderful stuff - Well it's highly debatable that that should be tied to God. Even if we do assume that God did do that, it's really lovely that whilst keeping slaves and condemning the gays during the week he finds time to help out in soup kitchens on the weekends.
* Not everyone can be right - Completely irrelevant.
* Everyone can believe what they want - Completely irrelevant.

Perhaps I was too harsh saying your post was irrelevant. There were bits that had some tangential relevance, but I can't see any argument of any significance there to defend why "God's word" would ever contain such garbage in it.
Gangrenous, I don't expect you to agree with something you don't want to understand. What you consider to be an 'evil' God in the Old Testament is actually God punishing evil (in quite brutal ways). That is the just and jealous bit. Christians don't worship a namby pamby God. However, the New Testament changes the whole paradigm with our relationship with God and one another, based on love and forgiveness.

You can try to disconnect the good works of Christians from God all you want if it makes you feel happy. To be perfectly honest we've been through all this before. It's a bit tedious and I'm about to go on holidays for a week, so lets just agree to disagree and not go though it all again. :)
Last edited by Seiffert82 on October 4, 2015, 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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